Inside Higher Ed: "Empty Seats, Fewer Donors Later?"

[Christopher Walker]

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/09/11/colleges-worry-about-future-football-fans-student-attendance-declines

A friend and former colleague I took to the LaTech game sent me this last night. It's something we've all been aware of at least peripherally and a problem I think our AD has flipped on its head to some degree.

We seem to focus nearly all of our resources towards procuring the student attendance and filling our luxury monocle'd club seats and suites. The huge bet there being that those rabid undergrads will remain faithful alumni and come back to the West side of the stands if they remain nearby in the metroplex after graduation. (these are quite a few factors to go the right way to get the desired outcome)

This leaves seemingly little to no attention given to the existing Alumni side as it stands now; last weekend's game notwithstanding, though one could attribute the West side's robustness to Family Weekend and the movement of the sun.

What do you think? Discuss collegiately.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Christopher Walker

[flyonthewall]

There are a lot of people that are out there trying to sell this thing. Guerilla marketing with mean green club reps etc. The tailgate experience is improving. We are picking up fans each year, but at some point, the product has to help sell itself. I was afraid that the LaTech game was just a huge momentum killer, and that Nichols would be a hard sell. I can tell you that our tailgate was a robust as ever and we ran out of food for the second week in a row, without cutting back on anything and adding brats to the menu.

All that any of us can do is keep beating the drum. We can't get tired head because we lose one game. This is a journey that is going to take years to accomplish. I just keep inviting people, hoping that if they show up and drink one of my bloody mary's and eat one of my ribs, then maybe they will get hooked, and "oh by the way, we are dragging your ass into the stadium for the game." When they come back the next week, the line is "You are welcome to come to my tailgate party anytime you would like, but we require you to be a $500.00 mean green club member." We have signed up 6 this year. That may not seem like much, but its like I heard the old dodge driver Darrel Dickey say one morning, "When you are trying to eat an elephant, you just have to do it one bite at time."

Attendance was pleasing to me at the Nichols game.

That is all.

[Harry]

Great topic. How to address it concisely is the challenge.

We have tons of successful alums throughout DFW and the state. And despite being one of those who graduated from UNT at a time when athletics and school pride was at an all time low I can say that EVERY person who either attended or graduated from UNT has a certain sense of pride about the college they attended.

Our challenge is not trying to re-engage our massive alumni base -- it is more about trying to get them engaged for the first time. It didn't happen for the vast majority of them when they were there.

Winning and winning consistently is the best way to do this long term. In the short term it will take a signature win which I still maintain we have not had in my years of following the program.

The other issue we are battling is this technology age. People can watch just about every North Texas game on crystal clear HD for a fraction of the cost to buy tickets, gas, concessions etc...

The issue with the alumni side is not one that can be addressed in the short term. It is going to take a). consistently winning football over a 4-10 year period of time. b big signature win against a superior resource opponent, preferably in the state of Texas.

Flyonawall is also right, all of us need to do our part to sell this thing and introduce as many people to the experience that we can.

Hiring Mac and building Apogee were two HUGE steps in terms of funding this program to be successful. Up until that point we were trying to hit the lotto with a $1 ticket. Now that those key pieces are in place we have to win consistently to build our fanbase. Everything else is in place -- we have a large and growing student population who are being educated on the importance of school pride and spirit, and we are located in one of the fastest growing areas in the country full of great high school athletes.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

It's the Sword of Damocles for those in the athletic directors' and commissioners' chairs isn't it?:

(1) You want to make your product as widely available as possible on television and other digital outlets, and yet

(2) You are trying to get students into the stands at the same time.

Not enough digital/live access and one set of donors is angry at you. Attendance not enough for other donors and, so, that set is angry with you.

I tend to skewer the commissioners more than I do the athletic directors because they have the television and bowl negotiating to do. I personally think the C-USA commissioner panicked when his best football schools began to depart - just a few years after the best basketball programs jumped ship under his watch.

Schools that find themselves in our situations - athletics not pushed, and neglected even, for decades - get stuck in this false "television markets" sell by the commissioners. Miami-based schools = Miami television market or Houston-based schools = Houston television market.

FAU and FIU may be located in and around Miami, but to think the Miami television market has them anywhere near the front of the line is a joke. They stand in line behind The U, Florida, Florida State, and probably every other SEC and ACC school you can name.

Ditto Houston and Rice. Try to tell me Rice has anywhere near the media clout of Texas A&M, LSU, Texas, or any SEC or Big 12 regional.

Add Cougar High to Rice as well, which is why they've been bypassed twice by the Big 12. The Big 12 owns Houston without the Cougars, so why throw them a bone? And, now, with Texas A&M in the SEC...why throw them a bone when you can just bone them?

I've always believed you get to a point media-wise where you begin to eat yourself. I think this is happening now.

And, let me throw in this other, unmentioned angle. It used to be that a trip back to the campus meant reconnecting with old friends and colleagues. That is wholly secondary now because of things like facebook.

People don't have to wait for homecoming to see how their old classmates are doing. They already know. And, they probably know more than they care to in this age of digital, social network oversharing.

If you've taken marketing, you understand that there is a price point for the value of your product. Game Day Football as a product now has many more challenges to its sell than before. And, again, as a non-"traditional power" school, the ability to reach the alumni based on loyalty alone is a tougher sell.

And, thus, the paradox that the much-derided (on this board) t-shirt fan may be as valuable - or, more so - in the future than the actual graduate. Whether the person with their butt in the stadium seat has your school's sheepskin on the wall or not, money is money...right?

Edited September 22, 2014 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[oldguystudent]

There are a lot of people that are out there trying to sell this thing. Guerilla marketing with mean green club reps etc. The tailgate experience is improving. We are picking up fans each year, but at some point, the product has to help sell itself. I was afraid that the LaTech game was just a huge momentum killer, and that Nichols would be a hard sell. I can tell you that our tailgate was a robust as ever and we ran out of food for the second week in a row, without cutting back on anything and adding brats to the menu.

All that any of us can do is keep beating the drum. We can't get tired head because we lose one game. This is a journey that is going to take years to accomplish. I just keep inviting people, hoping that if they show up and drink one of my bloody mary's and eat one of my ribs, then maybe they will get hooked, and "oh by the way, we are dragging your ass into the stadium for the game." When they come back the next week, the line is "You are welcome to come to my tailgate party anytime you would like, but we require you to be a $500.00 mean green club member." We have signed up 6 this year. That may not seem like much, but its like I heard the old dodge driver Darrel Dickey say one morning, "When you are trying to eat an elephant, you just have to do it one bite at time."

Attendance was pleasing to me at the Nichols game.

That is all.

They guy I brought to Nicholls state was asking, "Do you have to be alumni to buy these seats? How much do they cost? My son would love this."

They don't always bite, but sometimes they do. I don't see club seats out of that guy, but I see lots of future attendance with him and his kid.

[Harry]

And, let me throw in this other, unmentioned angle. It used to be that a trip back to the campus meant reconnecting with old friends and colleagues. That is wholly secondary now because of things like facebook.

Great point. Had not thought of that.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Great point. Had not thought of that.

It's also taken the mystery and wonder out of high school reunions, I've found. There are many reasons why the founders of facebook will likely go to hell, no?

[HoustonEagle]

I think Televised games are a net positive as they help organically grow the fan base. The fence-sitter is not our major concern. They are at least fans and paying attention. What we have to do is connect with all of those uncaring, uninformed or unmotivated alumni. There is a ton of them out there and TV is the best way to reach them. The biggest drawback to the televised games has been the games times. The 11am start for SMU took three thousand fans out of the stadium. If I had my druthers, the first few homes games would always be a 6 PM start. That unfortunately does not work with our TV networks and our position in the college football pecking order.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

I think Televised games are a net positive as they help organically grow the fan base. The fence-sitter is not our major concern. They are at least fans and paying attention. What we have to do is connect with all of those uncaring, uninformed or unmotivated alumni. There is a ton of them out there and TV is the best way to reach them. The biggest drawback to the televised games has been the games times. The 11am start for SMU took three thousand fans out of the stadium. If I had my druthers, the first few homes games would always be a 6 PM start. That unfortunately does not work with our TV networks and our position in the college football pecking order.

Here, again, is where I think you have to have a more plugged in commissioner.

[Cerebus]

I think they should discount club level guest seats if the guest agrees to go on a athletics mailing list. I love to invite people to the game, but it's a little costly even for the monocle crowd at $90 a pop.

I guess I could invite people to the game and then buy them tickets else where, but we all really know they are really accepting the invite to bask in my beatific countenance.

I fully understand the new rules they put into place and support them, apparently some people were using guest tickets to skirt having to give the additional funds to buy more seats. However, if people are actually bringing new guests who might become donors, I don't see why a discount for contact info scheme won't work.

PS: Why isn't Beyond the Green being advertised on the video board at every commercial break? Especially if the school gets part of the advertising revenue from the program?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Cerebus

[UNT90]

It's also taken the mystery and wonder out of high school reunions, I've found. There are many reasons why the founders of facebook will likely go to hell, no?

So, so, so, so, so many that you haven't even thought of.

Yes, they will BIH, P.

Edited September 22, 2014 by UNT90

[oldguystudent]

I think they should discount club level guest seats if the guest agrees to go on a athletics mailing list. I love to invite people to the game, but it's a little costly even for the monocle crowd at $90 a pop.

As my kid becomes less and less interested in going to football games in favor of trouncing about town with her hooligan friends, I will more often than not just have the extra seat available for whoever the hell I want to bring. If the kid wants to bring friends like she did last week, they sit in the wing. They're more interested in climbing stairs all day than they are in club amenities anyway.

Incidentally, it is unnecessarily difficult to purchase wing zone tickets. It took me two days and several transfers from people answering the "ticket info" phone number on my mean green club card to accomplish. Apparently, actually working in the ticket office does not necessitate a need to be able to, you know, sell tickets or to even have any knowledge how to direct one to do so. Also, the mean green club member website is broken, so I couldn't even do that. I know I was buying the cheapest seats in the stadium, but dudes, c'mon, I'm doing it to facilitate a guest in the club and expose a couple local Lewisville kids to UNT. Help a brother out!

Plus side: After much persistence, I did manage to acquire three GA tickets, charged to my MGC account . Doing it this way and having them left at will call avoided all Ticketmaster screw you in the bung hole fees. Straight up face value. That much I did appreciate.

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

Like Harry said no gimmicks or promotions are going to solve this, key phrase: "Just win, baby." I think that's why I'm so upset about Texas still, in a down year it seems for them we could have at least made that a decent game, that would help get alumni attention for sure. No sense beating that dead horse, though. Heart of Dallas was great, but I'm afraid it will probably take another season or more of success to engage folks.

[NorthTexan95]

RV commented on a pod cast that with limited resources, throwing it at alumni has not been productive. They have been productive in bringing students, bucking the national trend. Several of us have said that it will take current students graduating and moving to the alumni side for that side to fill up consistently. We lost too many years with bad play and bad promoting to get those alumni to care.

Think back to where we were 10 years ago ... we have grown tremendously. Think of where we could be in another 10 years ... with consistent winning that could be a huge improvement in attendance.

[untjim1995]

What does the P5 pulling away from the G5 do to these efforts? When they start playing only against themselves and expand their playoff to 8 or more so as to help those programs who lose a game in OOC not get knocked out of the playoff picture, I wonder how the G5 schools like ours, with large alumni and students, plus a large amount of people that are near the campus, will work to get people at football games. At some point, as TFLF points out, our level of play will have to be about logistics instead of broadcast potential and TV schedules. I still think that we are going to see a day with 5 years that we are gonna be in a conference with peer G5 schools, such as:

UNT, UH, UTEP, UTSA, Texas State, ULL, La Tech, Arkansas State, and any of the privates schools (tulsa, smu, rice, and tulane) who don't give up scholarship football. (NMSU fills in for whoever quits)

Memphis, MUTS, USM, UAB, Troy, ULM, South Alabama, FIU, FAU, USF, UCF, and Georgia Southern

East Carolina, Charlotte, Old Dominion, Marshall, WKU, Appy State, Georgia State, Navy, Army, Temple, UConn, and Cincy (if those last two are still left behind)

The MAC

Travel, competitive programs, and AD funding are gonna be huge players at that time. F_U teams aren't gonna want to play here anymore than we are gonna want to travel there. The question that nobody can answer is if the fans at these G5 schools will still go out and support their schools or if the P5 will just get most of those fans who haven't sold out yet to them.

[Harry]

What does the P5 pulling away from the G5 do to these efforts? When they start playing only against themselves and expand their playoff to 8 or more so as to help those programs who lose a game in OOC not get knocked out of the playoff picture, I wonder how the G5 schools like ours, with large alumni and students, plus a large amount of people that are near the campus, will work to get people at football games. At some point, as TFLF points out, our level of play will have to be about logistics instead of broadcast potential and TV schedules. I still think that we are going to see a day with 5 years that we are gonna be in a conference with peer G5 schools, such as:

UNT, UH, UTEP, UTSA, Texas State, ULL, La Tech, Arkansas State, and any of the privates schools (tulsa, smu, rice, and tulane) who don't give up scholarship football. (NMSU fills in for whoever quits)

Memphis, MUTS, USM, UAB, Troy, ULM, South Alabama, FIU, FAU, USF, UCF, and Georgia Southern

East Carolina, Charlotte, Old Dominion, Marshall, WKU, Appy State, Georgia State, Navy, Army, Temple, UConn, and Cincy (if those last two are still left behind)

The MAC

Travel, competitive programs, and AD funding are gonna be huge players at that time. F_U teams aren't gonna want to play here anymore than we are gonna want to travel there. The question that nobody can answer is if the fans at these G5 schools will still go out and support their schools or if the P5 will just get most of those fans who haven't sold out yet to them.

My argument to this is for those of us who are already hooked --- we still have a good product. For the money you spent on Saturday, with the cooler weather, tailgating and great game did you not feel like you got your moneys worth? I have so much fun at these games and so do most everyone I bring. It's the ones who haven't experienced these things that are the challenge in my mind.

I sonetimes wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to get some type of focus group that comprised alums in particular geographic areas that could provide some insight into connecting with alumni and converting them to season ticket holders and mean green club members. It seems like there is too much guess work involved. I also think we focus too much on revenue as opposed to "buying" the business. What I mean is, let's send out invitations with ticket vouchers to some of our alumni to try and get them engaged. Once they taste the experience they could become financially involved.

[laxtonto]

I was talking to another faculty member about the shift away from an alumni driven policy to a student driven policy last week and he made a very astute point. "If we get the students to the game, in an enviroment and atmosphere we can control, it has much farther reaching effects than just one more # on the turnstile for the student side. If you get a student to buy into the benefits of being a student, then they will also hopefully buy into the requirements to stay a student." ie lower drop rates, higher grades, better acceptance and identification with the UNT brand.

All of those go hand in hand with the desire for the university to increase our academic reputation. It is a fine line to dance between partying so much that we get the party school monicker and providing school sponsored nonacademic events that enhance the student experience, but the slow march to a better academic standing will be closely tied to keeping and graduating our students in a timely manner (4,5, and 6 year graduation rates) as well as research funding and entrance exam scores.

It is important to have the alumni in the stands now, but the students are the long term investment in the program and the university and sometimes that part is forgotten. Athletics is the biggest marketing tool we have and unfortunately it is one of the things we did not pay enough attention to in the past.

[Christopher Walker]

I was talking to another faculty member about the shift away from an alumni driven policy to a student driven policy last week and he made a very astute point. "If we get the students to the game, in an enviroment and atmosphere we can control, it has much farther reaching effects than just one more # on the turnstile for the student side. If you get a student to buy into the benefits of being a student, then they will also hopefully buy into the requirements to stay a student." ie lower drop rates, higher grades, better acceptance and identification with the UNT brand.

All of those go hand in hand with the desire for the university to increase our academic reputation. It is a fine line to dance between partying so much that we get the party school monicker and providing school sponsored nonacademic events that enhance the student experience, but the slow march to a better academic standing will be closely tied to keeping and graduating our students in a timely manner (4,5, and 6 year graduation rates) as well as research funding and entrance exam scores.

It is important to have the alumni in the stands now, but the students are the long term investment in the program and the university and sometimes that part is forgotten. Athletics is the biggest marketing tool we have and unfortunately it is one of the things we did not pay enough attention to in the past.

I'm fully in line with this train of thought.

PS: Why isn't Beyond the Green being advertised on the video board at every commercial break? Especially if the school gets part of the advertising revenue from the program?

I asked JubJub and Eric Capper this three weeks ago and was met with, "You're right! We'll try to do better! Thanks for the input."

:shrug:

[KRAM1]

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/09/11/colleges-worry-about-future-football-fans-student-attendance-declines

A friend and former colleague I took to the LaTech game sent me this last night. It's something we've all been aware of at least peripherally and a problem I think our AD has flipped on its head to some degree.

We seem to focus nearly all of our resources towards procuring the student attendance and filling our luxury monocle'd club seats and suites. The huge bet there being that those rabid undergrads will remain faithful alumni and come back to the West side of the stands if they remain nearby in the metroplex after graduation. (these are quite a few factors to go the right way to get the desired outcome)

This leaves seemingly little to no attention given to the existing Alumni side as it stands now; last weekend's game notwithstanding, though one could attribute the West side's robustness to Family Weekend and the movement of the sun.

What do you think? Discuss collegiately.

I have been advocating for this approach for several years now. I think it is by far the best strategy for the long term health and prosperity of UNT Athletics. I have had numerous discussions a long these lines with University folks in recent months. The University is very aware of the long term benefits. On the other hand, attracting fans to the alumni side will not be abandoned. Thus the efforts and coordination with the trains, busses and downtown merchants, the participation in the Concerts on the Square Program, newspaper ads, work with the local schools, etc. while folks can argue the pluses and minuses of such a strategy, finances determine a lot of it. With limited finances one needs to use available dollars where the better results could be expected. Draw 100 more fans to the alumni side spending the same dollars and attract 2-3,000 new students? New students who could become alumni side seat buyers in the future. Easy choice as far as I am concerned...and for one I hope this strategy continues and is expanded.

[FirefightnRick]

Our school doesn't market itself very well.

Our school doesn't promote itself very well.

Our school doesn't sell itself very well.

Our school does not communicate very well.

At first I thought part of the reason all of the above is true was because we have a lot of carpet baggers running the show up there. But there are numerous graduates working there and all they can come up with for a billboard message is one claiming victory because we're supposedly the cheapest school in town????

Being Mean Green is tough, and it's tough for a reason!

Rick

[MeanGreenTexan]

Our school doesn't market itself very well.

Our school doesn't promote itself very well.

Our school doesn't sell itself very well.

Our school does not communicate very well.

At first I thought part of the reason all of the above is true was because we have a lot of carpet baggers running the show up there. But there are numerous graduates working there and all they can come up with for a billboard message is one claiming victory because we're supposedly the cheapest school in town????

Being Mean Green is tough, and it's tough for a reason!

Rick

I assume you're talking about the "Above the Rest for Thousands Less" billboard?

Again, you guys who are upset about that billboard need to read a little closer, and if you still don't understand, go look up the "Eagle Express Tuition Plan". For your convenience: https://eagleexpress.unt.edu/

Fantastic program that really encourages students to finish their degrees on time, which is a key metric in how Universities are measured these days.

This is an initiative of the University (Smatresk, specifically). It's an idea he brought over from UNLV. It worked VERY WELL for him there.

Not everything is about UNT Athletics folks.

[Ben Gooding]

I, and I am sure most on here are aware of the tuition savings plan being "advertised" through that specific billboard. It still gives a bad perception of our university and leaves a sour taste in my mouth every time I see it. I am sure it does the same effect to the casual or the people that know little of North Texas. It's not becoming, at all.

[MeanGreenTexan]

I, and I am sure most on here are aware of the tuition savings plan being "advertised" through that specific billboard. It still gives a bad perception of our university and leaves a sour taste in my mouth every time I see it. I am sure it does the same effect to the casual or the people that know little of North Texas. It's not becoming, at all.

Not a bad perception to prospective students & their parents... whom it is geared for.

Now, if we want to piss & moan because there aren't any billboards advertising football, then go for it. Different audiences.

[UNT90]

People who are looking for "value" as the #1 priority in the college they choose don't ever stay involved after graduation.this has been a problem at UNT for decades.

And that is what the market slogan appears to target. The actual plan may be great. The marketing campaign is terrible.

Edited September 23, 2014 by UNT90

[MeanGreenTexan]

People who are looking for "value" as the #1 priority in the college they choose don't ever stay involved after graduation.this has been a problem at UNT for decades.

And that is what the market slogan appears to target. The actual plan may be great. The marketing campaign is terrible.

Why does it have to be the #1 priority? It's still a big deal. You're talking about THOUSANDS of dollars off of your tuition.