If You Ever Go to France

[CMJ]

SE....I was trying to give love to WWI vets. I know one can never talk too much about WWII, but it really does come at the expense of remembering what we did in WWI. That was my whole point, which you seemed to ignore.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

SE....I was trying to give love to WWI vets. I know one can never talk too much about WWII, but it really does come at the expense of remembering what we did in WWI. That was my whole point, which you seemed to ignore.

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--- I am not ignoring it ...[ WWI not in thread title either ]..... just commenting that the Texas 36th division ( see the picture above ) had a large role in both wars.... I am extremely Texan and proud of our efforts. [ had one older uncle in WWI ] Coming up is Nov. 11th or Veteran's Day ... When I was kid it was called Armistice Day because of WWI ended on Nov. 11 ( or 11-11-1918 ) at 11:11 AM. I remember nearly everyone wearing Poppys on Nov. 11, in the 40's and 50's which was a flower found in Flander's Field ... a site of WWI battles. ...... Unfortunately many do not know anymore why Veterans Day is when it is (Nov.11) . It was renamed sometime after WWII. WWI, or the Great War as WWI was called then before WWII, is the reason that date is used, that connection is not known by most people now.. .....

-- I am not trying to belittle WWI .... [ personally I knew a lot of 36th division vets from WWII and a few from WWI.... I grew up in Brownwood where the WWII 36th trained (Camp Bowie.. larger than Fort Hood then) before going to Europe ] In WWI they trained at a different Camp Bowie near Ft. Worth....that explains Camp Bowie Street. in Ft. Worth.... I don't know how much of that you knew. I am not ignoring anything and know a lot about both wars and knew many people in them ... No WWI vets alive now and not so many from WWII either. -- Totally unrelated but my grandfather and his brother were even selling cattle to the Rough Rider group in San Antonio prior to Spanish American War so those guys ate beef raised by my family... I am very Texan... and the 36th mentioned and pictured above was very Texan as well ...

PS: The title of this thread mentions France and you mentioned the 36th ( . which was there both times.. ) .... WWI is not in the title so why the -1 ?? Nothing I said should have insulted or questioned anyone....

..

Edited October 1, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[CMJ]

I actually posted a video on Camp Bowie in Ft Worth on a previous page.

I've always thought it was interesting how some people called WWI so many different names before WWII. It seems most Americans called it The World War (based on many monuments from the 20's and 30's I have seen), while The Great War was more a European thing. The War to End All Wars also was in common use.

Edited October 1, 2014 by CMJ

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I actually posted a video on Camp Bowie in Ft Worth on a previous page.

I've always thought it was interesting how some people called WWI so many different names before WWII. It seems most Americans called it The World War (based on many monuments from the 20's and 30's I have seen), while The Great War was more a European thing. The War to End All Wars also was in common use.

..

I have a history text my mother used in the 20's ... they said..... " The Great War"......I have never seen "The World War" used until after WWII. (I have a history minor)... Maybe it was some... don't know. I don't think "the war to end all wars" was really a title but just a comment about it.. I had not noticed the video... will look.. Don't always look at videos or links... Still not sure why you were upset with my WWII 36th Division comments (and in France) ... same group as mentioned and pictured and in France both wars...... it fit the topic title.

Edited October 1, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[CMJ]

..

I have a history text my mother used in the 20's ... they said..... " The Great War"...... I don't think "the war to end all wars" was really a title but just a comment about it.. I had not noticed the video... will look..

This was put up in Pershing Square in 1924. Another monument to WWI (installed in 1936) in Los Angeles also refers to it as "The World War." I know many Americans must have called it that, or these monuments would have been said The Great War.

And sorry...that news story is actually just a few posts up from this one. Number 18 if you go by such things.

Edited October 1, 2014 by CMJ

[DeepGreen]

Reading this thread sends chills up my spine. Whether WWI or WWII, the sacrifices the men and women of our armed forces made, not to mention the home front, it's just mind boggling. I served my country in Viet Nam, and I'm proud of that. But when I think of the World Wars, it's at a different level.

Edited October 1, 2014 by DeepGreen

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---WWII was a much larger war ( plus Americans who were not in WWI very long) and we fought WWII in Pacific as well .... BUT the misery of WWI in trench warfare and with poison gas used seems worse for the individual soldier (more died of illness** than being killed ).. WWII was a war to survive as a country ... not sure you can say that about WWI or any other foreign war we have been involved in.. We were pretty much untouchable in WWI and even Britain was not under direct attack but fought in France ... can't say that about WWII. Pearl Harbor was under attack, our military bases were attacked and captured in Philippines in the first few days (Bataan death march resulted... knew a couple of survivors), ships (100's) were sunk within a few miles of our coast by U-boats (not reported at the time, one was even seen exploding a couple miles from Hilton Head golf course during an event there) and even Japan tried to set fire to Western forests with fire-bomb balloons that caused fires and even some small islands of Alaska was taken by Japan.. (again not really reported) Nothing compares to WWII really... About all we did in WWI was sent troops to fight in France. Not even close to WWII effort or as widespread or in manpower....

As you said soldiers from those non-WWII wars deserve credit also ... it was very bad for them.

** A world wide spread of Spanish flu resulted... killed millions... including my 34 yr.old grandmother who left 4 kids including my mother.. currently Ebola is very scary ...the same could happen.

[CMJ]

Most WWI casualty/death lists do not include Spanish Flu figures (as every warring nation censored figures during the conflict so the other side wouldn't know how bad it was) and even so over ten million combat and six million civilian deaths are the accepted figure for deaths in WWI. If you include the Spanish Flu, those figures would be comparable to WWII numbers, if not exceed them.

We may not have been involved for THAT long, but we lost servicemen at a faster rate than any conflict in our history -- even the Civil War. Our biggest cemetery in France is not at Normandy, but Meuse Argonne. All war is hell, but WWI seems like a particularly "hellish" version given the static nature of it.

Technically, Great Britain was under attack. in WWI. The first "blitz" (though before the term was used) involved German zeppelins bombing the islands. Given the way most of the European empires fell (Russian, German, Austrian), I do think Britain had way more on the line than you insinuated.

Also, I am not sure you could say WWII was really "bigger." From our standpoint it was, yes. For the world? There was more action involved in the Pacific theater, no question. However, there WAS Pacific action in WWI. WWI also involved more of Africa and the Middle East than WWII.

Edited October 2, 2014 by CMJ

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--- I was basically referring to American involvement... True the Middle East aka. Ottoman Empire was a big deal to some countries but I don't remember us being there at all. In WWII we were "everywhere" on the globe which includes north Africa.. . The bombing from Zeppelins in WWI was nothing compared to what happened in WWII.... The air war (Battle of Britain.. knew some that flew in it) or the rockets damage done later by V-I's and V-II's. (Ever been to London..?. damage still exists in places and some building look strange with mismatched brick repair after WWII, been there several times) Faster is relative ... we lost over 10,000 in one day at Gettysburg (almost all Southern.. Pickett's charge alone)... The worst battle ever probably was Stalingrad in WWII... about 1.5 million Russians deaths and about half of that Germans. ... about zero Americans. As for the cemetery mentioned... a lot were illness deaths... not combat.. Also unlike WWII ... the armies did not move much in WWI so were deaths and burials were concentrated close together .. In WWII they usually moved rapidly and many smaller cemeteries existed. .

Partly the reason memory of WWI is fading here is that there are no WWI veterans left ... and even most of their children are gone.. Unlike our Civil war, there are no battlefields or WWI cemeteries here either.

[CMJ]

We could go in circles forever.

I'd argue Verdun was as bad as Stalingrad, just in a different way. Those were probably the worst two battles in the history of the world though.

I know the Zeppelins didn't do the damage to Britain that the Blitz did, I was just saying they WERE under attack. You claimed they were not. The submarine attacks in both wars almost brought her to her knees. Before Passchendaele, - the Admiralty said they would probably be defeated in six months because they were losing so many ships. That was the argument that was used for Lloyd George to give Haig the go ahead to initiate the campaign.

I'd also just point out these statistics as far as rate of losses. You keep going back to battlefield versus illness deaths, so here we go. In the Civil War the approximate combat deaths were 230K in roughly four years. It's a bit harder to count when our involvement began in WWI, since we were in theater a few months after declaring war, but not heavily involved till the last 6-7 months. The vast majority of the over 53K combat deaths we had occurred in that span. Let's count it as 50K and six months for argument. Multiply that by eight and it's 400K people.

BTW - there were 26,277 killed in the six week Muese Argonne offensive with over 95K wounded. That's not including deaths by illness.

Edited October 2, 2014 by CMJ

[FirefightnRick]

Good stuff Courtland.

BTW, in that video on Camp Bowie, when they show the T Arrow marker, across the street you can see a dermatologist doctor's office that belongs to a UNT alumn, can't think of his name at the moment?

Anyhow, carry on brother. I'm loving the reads your putting up.

Rick

Edited October 3, 2014 by FirefightnRick

[CMJ]

Yeah, I started this thread to talk about the first WWI with folks who might be interested I guess. I figured you'd be one of those Rick.

I must say, I really knew little about the conflict until relatively recently. I guess that's true of most Americans really. I've always been fascinated with history of all types, but I guess I fit the stereotypical male since wars have been particularly interesting. But, what do we mostly learn about in school? Well, I'd say the Revolution, Civil War, WWII, and to a lesser extent Vietnam. I might have known more about WWI than the average American, but that's only because it's been ignored by us.

When the 100th anniversary of Archduke Ferdinand's death hit the news, it reminded me of how little I did know about WWI, and I really dove in the deep end up the pool reading and watching everything I could get my hands on. I have found a ton of great stuff out there. At this point I feel like I could hold my own with most any non historian on the subject.

I even have volunteered to help the national World War One Centennial Commission (which should have stuff commemorating the war going on around the country the next few years...but especially in 2017-2018 once we hit our 100 year mark for the war). I was making phone calls and emailing Senators to try and get the commemorative coin bill enough co-sponsors in the Senate! (We got 71) So hopefully around 2017 you can have your very own 50 cent peice with some sort of WWI design on it.

The first project I was helping was Professor Levitch's WWI Memorial Inventory Project.

http://wwi-inventory.org/

I found and sent him photos (and history as best as I could dig up) of three memorials in the LA area. He has recorded over 2K in the states so far and believes there are up to 10K total. I'd like to see two of them (the Los Angeles ones I mean) restored and am in the process of trying to figure out how to get that done.

Anyways, I feel like I am rambling for my own benefit now. But, yeah...thanks Rick I appreciate the appreciation. This has taken a lot of my free time as of late.

Edited October 3, 2014 by CMJ

[oldguystudent]

France is about the last place on my list of places to visit before I die (no doubt from a severe case of Texas Ebola).

That said, I do love the way the French view life. I loved the episode of Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations titled, "Why France Doesn't Suck," which feature him wandering some underground catacombs with some French dude.

The walls are packed with bottles of wine. Anthony inquires why, French dude shrugs his shoulders in typical French dismissive manner, and says, matter of factly, "So that we can drink in times of war."

We could dismiss that, laugh at it, make jokes about google searches and French military victories, but it struck me that the world wars probably had a much, much deeper cultural impact than we Americans, what with our relatively unattached homeland and whatnot, can understand.

[Army of Dad]

CMJ, if you haven't done so already you should plan a trip to Kansas City to see the national World War 1 museum. I vistited it a few years ago and was thoroughly impressed.

For any firearms enthusiasts out there that museum is a must see. They just about have an example of every weapon used in the war, most in great condition.

[CMJ]

CMJ, if you haven't done so already you should plan a trip to Kansas City to see the national World War 1 museum. I vistited it a few years ago and was thoroughly impressed.

For any firearms enthusiasts out there that museum is a must see. They just about have an example of every weapon used in the war, most in great condition.

I actually really wanna go. The Liberty Memorial is also just about the most impressive WWI monument there is in the USA.

Not to mention General Pershing's hometown isn't that far away from KC. I'd like to visit the museum there as well.

[MeanGreenTexan]

I actually really wanna go. The Liberty Memorial is also just about the most impressive WWI monument there is in the USA.

Not to mention General Pershing's hometown isn't that far away from KC. I'd like to visit the museum there as well.

Best Museum I've ever been to is also located in KC: Negro Leagues Baseball Museum.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

We could go in circles forever.

I'd argue Verdun was as bad as Stalingrad, just in a different way. Those were probably the worst two battles in the history of the world though.

I know the Zeppelins didn't do the damage to Britain that the Blitz did, I was just saying they WERE under attack. You claimed they were not. The submarine attacks in both wars almost brought her to her knees. Before Passchendaele, - the Admiralty said they would probably be defeated in six months because they were losing so many ships. That was the argument that was used for Lloyd George to give Haig the go ahead to initiate the campaign.

I'd also just point out these statistics as far as rate of losses. You keep going back to battlefield versus illness deaths, so here we go. In the Civil War the approximate combat deaths were 230K in roughly four years. It's a bit harder to count when our involvement began in WWI, since we were in theater a few months after declaring war, but not heavily involved till the last 6-7 months. The vast majority of the over 53K combat deaths we had occurred in that span. Let's count it as 50K and six months for argument. Multiply that by eight and it's 400K people.

BTW - there were 26,277 killed in the six week Muese Argonne offensive with over 95K wounded. That's not including deaths by illness.

.

I did not post anything to argue .... I posted about the 36th division (which had been mentioned and pictured) also being in WWII (mostly Texans) and in France as well ... and got slammed for it and supposedly being off subject. (the topic title was about France) ...

[CMJ]

.

I did not post anything to argue .... I posted about the 36th division (which had been mentioned and pictured) also being in WWII (mostly Texans) and in France as well ... and got slammed for it and supposedly being off subject. (the topic title was about France) ...

Arguing is too strong, we were simply debating. I was advocating that WWI was a bigger deal than the US makes it out to be was all and was attempting to make my point.

The topic title was about France, but every article posted was about WWI, as were my opening statements about not visiting Normandy, as were the film discussions, as was the local news story video that was posted. So, technically you're correct, but it should have been apparent from basically everything posted in the thread that this was a WWI one.

Edited October 3, 2014 by CMJ

[CMJ]

Great NYT article from a few months ago that I recently came back across. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/27/world/europe/world-war-i-second-battle-of-the-marne.html

[CMJ]

Another fantastic NYT article - with the same title as the previous one I posted, but more about Belleau Wood than the Second Battle of the Marne.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/travel/where-americans-turned-the-tide-in-world-war-i.html?_r=0

Edited October 25, 2014 by CMJ

[FirefightnRick]

Another fantastic NYT article - with the same title as the previous one I posted, but more about Belleau Wood than the Second Battle of the Marne.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/travel/where-americans-turned-the-tide-in-world-war-i.html?_r=0

Ok,..well, you just added another to my bucket list. Thank you!

Rick

[CMJ]

Ok,..well, you just added another to my bucket list. Thank you!

Rick

Yeah, if I ever get to France, I'd go too. But number one has to be Blanc Mont/Sommepy Monument for me.

Edited November 3, 2014 by CMJ

[CMJ]

Another (older) article from a few years ago that I dug up - for anyone interested.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/travel/30footsteps.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[CMJ]

And one from yesterday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/28/travel/in-france-vestiges-of-the-great-wars-bloody-end.html?_r=0

[SilverEagle]

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---I will not disagree with you ...... wars on someones home turf is very difficult to completely win.... You can defeat their army as such. .... with superior weapons and numbers.... but can't control the citizens/locals who will fight back.... Same happened in Iraq somewhat .. note all the roadside bombs that occurred after their army was defeated and gone. ...

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You don't have to cite examples of conflicts overseas where the citizenry remained forever defiant of us. We have a pretty good example here in America. The civil war ended in 1865. And with it all vestiges of the "rebellion" should have gone away. Slavery was eliminated, but what did the defiant South put in it's place...Jim Crow laws. Which in most cases made life just as bad for people of color. The confederate battle flag, the main symbol of the southern rebellion, should have been relegated to museums long ago. And yet...........

And our planners and thinkers of foreign policy, which include people who strongly advocate military "solutions" to conflicts in foreign countries, completely ignore our own home grown lesson in never being able to completely crush a rebellion.