Fonzale Davis update from Vito

GMG24 · July 13, 2014

Our line gave us 17 sacks in the last two years. We threw the ball 261 one times last year and 375 times the year before. Not sure how many two stars we have on our line I'm sure all of them, plus a center who walked on. That's efficiency. 526 attempts 17 sacks.

UNT90 · July 13, 2014

But you can gauge speed, hands, strength, how quick the get off the ball, etc.

You can't gauge speed if the competition is slow.

You can't gauge strength if the competition is weak.

Very few receiver highlight films show the receiver actually catching the ball in traffic (Goree's did, which is what impressed me about his highlight video). That is the most important attribute to have hands wise as the receiver takes steps up the competition ladder. Can they catch the ball knowing that they are about to get crushed by a defender? You RARELY see this in any receiver recruiting video.

Again, how quick you get off the ball can be deceptive depending on how quick your competition gets off the ball.

Just show me a good offer sheet and a recruiting victory, and I'll get excited.

BillySee58 · July 13, 2014

To be able to evaluate fairly, you need to know the ability of each and every player that the recruit goes up against in the highlight video. If there is one person on here that would know that, it would be you, but it definitely isn't me or the many others that casually comment on highlight videos.

Does the player take plays off? Does he have a constant motor? Can't tell from a highlight video.

A full game video would give you a much better feel for the ability of the recruit.

I think offer list is the most viable source to rate recruits, because you can bet your anus that those schools have done this work to evaluate that recruit.

Disagree again. It is a factor, but you can see the player's capabilities even if they're doing it on a lower level. It makes things less impressive, but when you look at a kid's film you are zoning in on that one individual player and what his skill set is. Is he a one-step cut or two-step cut guy? Does he tackle high? How is his throwing motion? Is he nasty?

A lot of major questions can be answered regardless of competition. I'll be honest, some kid's we have offered I have not been able to watch past the first minute or so in their highlight film. It doesn't matter who they are going against, they themselves aren't looking like division 1 players. I don't know who they're going against, I just know that they are looking very underwhelming.

I definitely agree on the sample size. I love watching full game films if I can get my hands on them. That is a major flaw in highlight videos, but I'm only realistically looking for a player's skill set in their highlight video. Not their consistency.

Another thing I like to do is watch other player's highlight videos that feature another player in question. For example, watching Evan Curl's highlights and seeing what kind of player Chris Miles is on those plays where they are Curl's highlights and maybe just a random play for Miles. Or watching Kenneth Mann during Joseph Gonzales' highlights. That's when I knew for sure that Mann was the real deal, before he picked up another 19 offers or so.

But yes, recruiting battles are ultimately the measure that matters as far as coaches ability to recruit. Being able to get the guys you want, even if other schools want them, is how you get your program to it's full potential.

Edited July 13, 2014 by BillySee58

GOMG2013 · July 13, 2014

I put a lot of weight on offers when looking at recruits. Even those that do not have an offer, but they have the person that is recruiting them listed, you still know there is serious contact and interest from that school.

If you want to see if a recruit has bad plays, just look at the highlights of the opposing teams and players. Pick a few top recruits or the best teams that they have played. If highlights show you dominating the same school over and over, you can see that. If there is no highlights against a particular school, you probably had a bad game.

Ben Gooding · July 13, 2014

Our line gave us 17 sacks in the last two years. We threw the ball 261 one times last year and 375 times the year before. Not sure how many two stars we have on our line I'm sure all of them, plus a center who walked on. That's efficiency. 526 attempts 17 sacks.

Our offense sucked last year. Defense bailed them out time and time and time again. At times they seemed confused and appeared they were simply going through the motions. Imagine if there were bonafide 3 stars scattered in the offensive skill position depth chart. Don't argue with me for the sake of argument. The star system has flaws, but it is damn effective at talent evaluation. And last I checked 3* is better than 2*.

GOMG2013 · July 13, 2014

The recruiting sites and star system is not extensive enough to keep up with every recruit. Late bloomers will fall under the radar.

First thing scouts look at is size and speed. They look at build and frame. The earlier you are on varsity making plays, the higher you will be rated.

There may not be much difference between a 2 star and 3 star from an athletic standpoint. The 3 star recruit may have been on varsity as a soph, may have had more opportunites against better teams, may have better highlights, been in a better system, etc.

Ben Gooding · July 13, 2014

Or the 3* COULD actually be a better player, no? Let's not keep scratching our back because our lack of recruiting. Development is very, very important, but if there is a low ceiling a coach can only develop up to a point. We can't just throw the cop out of "we develop" every offseason or every signing day. How about we consistently get a slew of 3 stars and develop them. The on field product would quickly speak for itself.

GMG24 · July 13, 2014

The highlightt film largely depends on the coach making it and if they're putting the right clips in, I've seen it time and time again, kids coaches will put the dumbest plays on a highlight tape instead of things such as catching in tight spaces, showing players getting in and out of cuts, as billy illuded to one or two step cuts, defensive lineman using their hands and getting off the ball, linebackers making plays both down hill (shedding lineman AND making a tackle) and going sideline to sideline making tackles, safeties taking good angles and making sure tackles, or running down potential TDs. And Ben, you're not worth "arguing with" I'm talking facts you're talking opinions. How did all those stars work out for USM last year? I'll take what works, and what we do works. Sure getting a few better athletes wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit, but continuing to win 9 games and a bowl would be much more valuable to me. Our coaches can clearly evaluate talent, look at most every early offer we extended, most if not all have 6-10 offers or more. It's a process when recruiting and that process starts on the field.

Ben Gooding · July 13, 2014

Evaluate talent? Almost every single major contributor on last years untouchable 9-4 team were Dodge recruits. We will see how well this staff can evaluate talent this football season.

3* being better than 2* is a fact. Let's make 3* the norm and not the exception.

UNTLifer · July 13, 2014

Our offense sucked last year. Defense bailed them out time and time and time again. At times they seemed confused and appeared they were simply going through the motions. Imagine if there were bonafide 3 stars scattered in the offensive skill position depth chart. Don't argue with me for the sake of argument. The star system has flaws, but it is damn effective at talent evaluation. And last I checked 3* is better than 2*.

Not when Rivals flat out dropped a 3 star to a 2 star because they committed to us. I wrote them for explanation and they pretty much admitted to this. That discredits their system in my eyes. A kid's ability does not change based on who he signs with in college.

GOMG2013 · July 13, 2014

Evaluate talent? Almost every single major contributor on last years untouchable 9-4 team were Dodge recruits.

Ok, what counts as a major contributor?

Just my opinion, but trice, buyers, James jones, lemon, jimmerson, lee, akunne were major contributors. That's 7 players that were not dodges recruits.

UNTLifer · July 13, 2014

Evaluate talent? Almost every single major contributor on last years untouchable 9-4 team were Dodge recruits. We will see how well this staff can evaluate talent this football season.
3* being better than 2* is a fact. Let's make 3* the norm and not the exception.

You stated our offense sucked. Players that were Dodge's: Thompson, Byrd, Chancellor, Miller, Prior, Johnson, Y'Barbo, Anyiam, Smith, etc... Mac's were Jimmerson, Smith, Harris, Peagram, Lemon, etc... So, for a unit that you claimed sucked, the majority goes to Dodge.

The defense was a big mix. The DB's were primarily Mac's with Buyers, Jones, Whitfield, Trice, Lee. The LB's were a mix with Orr and Wright being TD recruits and Akunne, Ellis and Marshal being Mac's. The DL was all Dodge pretty much, and that is a concern.

GrayEagle · July 13, 2014

I hope you are fm right about Fonzale coming back but I would respectfully beg to differ about Tech and jucos. This may change with coach handsome but they have signed a fair amount of jucos to my recollection much like K State has in years past.

I checked back the past four years and Tech has signed three JC wide receivers and one of them gets an asterisk.

There have been 19 wide receivers signed by Texas Tech in the last four years. Tommy Tuberville signed a JC in 2011 (Kennard) who played two years and had 21 receptions for three TDs. Both years he was in the bottom half of the receiving stats. In 2012 he signed another named Bell who played in just four games and did not return the next year. He did score a TD though. Kingsbury has signed one JC, a player out of Navarro, who gets the asterisk. The reason that he gets the asterisk is that Kingsbury tried to sign the receiver named Lauderdale out of high school in 2013 but he didn't qualify so he signed him last year. He had not completed JC unless he did the two years in one. He hasn't played yet.

If Tech were able to keep all receivers on the squad and didn't sign any new receivers there would be eleven WR recruits on the squad when they were eligible to sign Davis and seven of those would be juniors/redshirt sophomores.

Ben Gooding · July 13, 2014

Ok, what counts as a major contributor?
Just my opinion, but trice, buyers, James jones, lemon, jimmerson, lee, akunne were major contributors. That's 7 players that were not dodges recruits.

Yeah, 7/?. Major contributor would be stat leaders. Tkls, QB play, receptions, rushing yards, DL presence, etc.

This season will tell the tale. Look for guys to step up and create their identity. It's going to be exciting to watch it unfold.

GMG24 · July 13, 2014

Evaluate talent? Almost every single major contributor on last years untouchable 9-4 team were Dodge recruits. We will see how well this staff can evaluate talent this football season.
3* being better than 2* is a fact. Let's make 3* the norm and not the exception.

You must be from southlake. It's ok dodge wasn't cut for college. The dude got paid and good for him. He ran this program, no scratch that he drove this program right off a cliff.

Ben Gooding · July 13, 2014

Not when Rivals flat out dropped a 3 star to a 2 star because they committed to us. I wrote them for explanation and they pretty much admitted to this. That discredits their system in my eyes. A kid's ability does not change based on who he signs with in college.

yeah that's aggravating. Vice versa also happens, 2* sign with a P5 and he suddenly becomes a 3*. It's stupid, but that doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen.

BillySee58 · July 13, 2014

Not when Rivals flat out dropped a 3 star to a 2 star because they committed to us. I wrote them for explanation and they pretty much admitted to this. That discredits their system in my eyes. A kid's ability does not change based on who he signs with in college.

Rivals also bumped Tee Goree from a 2-star to a 3-star after he committed to us. You can't look at things from only one angle and ignore when things to the contrary happen. Just like we can't only look at the successful 2-stars and unsuccessful 3-stars when we examine how effective star-ratings are.

UNT90 · July 13, 2014

You must be from southlake. It's ok dodge wasn't cut for college. The dude got paid and good for him. He ran this program, no scratch that he drove this program right off a cliff.

Ben Gooding is actually right about this. This year will tell us lots about Mac's recruiting. Cooley had been worried about the recruiting for quite some time.

Dodge was a terrible coach and developer of talent, but he could recruit. We saw that through the major contributors that were mainly Dodge's guys.

Don't believe the "lack of talent, size, and speed" BS coach speak Mac threw down when he got here. We will be the smallest we have been in many a year on the DL this year, and that is Mac's specialty position.

Edited July 13, 2014 by UNT90

GOMG2013 · July 13, 2014

Ben Gooding is actually right about this. This year will tell us lots about Mac's recruiting. Cooley had been worried about the recruiting for quite some time.
Dodge was a terrible coach and developer of talent, but he could recruit. We saw that through the major contributors that were mainly Dodge's guys.
Don't believe the "lack of talent, size, and speed" BS coach speak Mac threw down when he got here. We will be the smallest we have been in many a year on the DL this year, and that is Mac's specialty position.

If dodge could recruit, especially for a team that was supposed to have a high powered offense, then where was the talent at the skill positions? We have enough speed to hold our own against CUSA and mid majors, but this team still lacked speed at every skill position. That shouldn't even be debatable.

DL is the hardest position to recruit, even for p5 schools. Can't get mad at Mac for not getting top DL commits to come to unt. Back to the skill positions...we are in Texas, where there are a lot of dbs, wrs, rbs, lbs, and athletic qbs. If dodge was such a great recruiter and left unt with so much talent, then explain the situation at wr, Qb, and db.

UNT90 · July 13, 2014

If dodge could recruit, especially for a team that was supposed to have a high powered offense, then where was the talent at the skill positions? We have enough speed to hold our own against CUSA and mid majors, but this team still lacked speed at every skill position. That shouldn't even be debatable.
DL is the hardest position to recruit, even for p5 schools. Can't get mad at Mac for not getting top DL commits to come to unt. Back to the skill positions...we are in Texas, where there are a lot of dbs, wrs, rbs, lbs, and athletic qbs. If dodge was such a great recruiter and left unt with so much talent, then explain the situation at wr, Qb, and db.

Lance Dunbar lacked speed?

Breland Chancellor lacked speed?

Riley Dodge lacked speed?

And that's just off the top of my head.

Good God, man.

Ben Gooding · July 13, 2014

If dodge could recruit, especially for a team that was supposed to have a high powered offense, then where was the talent at the skill positions? We have enough speed to hold our own against CUSA and mid majors, but this team still lacked speed at every skill position. That shouldn't even be debatable.
DL is the hardest position to recruit, even for p5 schools. Can't get mad at Mac for not getting top DL commits to come to unt. Back to the skill positions...we are in Texas, where there are a lot of dbs, wrs, rbs, lbs, and athletic qbs. If dodge was such a great recruiter and left unt with so much talent, then explain the situation at wr, Qb, and db.

Some people, myself not being one of them, thinks DT is a hall of fame lock. He played QB, I think.

GOMG2013 · July 13, 2014

Lance Dunbar lacked speed?
Breland Chancellor lacked speed?
Riley Dodge lacked speed?
And that's just off the top of my head.
Good God, man.

You think a few fast dudes can make up a d1 college football PROGRAM? And I am willing to bet Most d1 programs have at least 2 backs and 2 wrs that have 4.5 speed. 4.5 at the skill positions is considered average. 4.4 is fast. 4.3 is elite. Come on man...

GOMG2013 · July 13, 2014

Some people, myself not being one of them, thinks DT is a hall of fame lock. He played QB, I think.

Yeah, but that's just the UNT hall of fame. A case can be made for almost everyone getting in from last year's team. It's not like they are saying he was the greatest of all time. Just one of the greatest. And that is relative to the ones you are comparing him to.

UNT90 · July 13, 2014

You think a few fast dudes can make up a d1 college football PROGRAM? And I am willing to bet Most d1 programs have at least 2 backs and 2 wrs that have 4.5 speed. 4.5 at the skill positions is considered average. 4.4 is fast. 4.3 is elite. Come on man...

I can't believe you are going to make me do this, but here goes. I think we can agree that Dunbar was the real deal. Remember his back up? You know, this guy?:

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-James-Hamilton-59193

Take a good look at that offer sheet and speed. Anyone who ever saw James Hamilton play can attest that the speed isn't exaggerated. He would be starting RB this year for UNT.

Now lets go to wide receiver and take a look at the starters in 2010.

Tyler Stradford - transfer from OU. A burner by anyones account that ever saw him play. Now, if only he could catch the football:

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Tyler-Stradford-48851

Darius Carey - A more than capable slot receiver with an attitude problem, not a speed problem:

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Darius-Carey-74343

Jamaal Jackson - a really capable receiver that will be remembered for the dropped balls in the Ohio game that could have won the game. From Vtio's blog when he signed out of CC - "Run's a 4.4 40":

http://www.meangreensports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/020409aaa.html

B.J. Lewis - The "slowest" of the starters who ran a 4.6 40:

http://sports.yahoo.com/theoldcoach/football/recruiting/player-B.J.-Lewis-49234

And top reserve Breece Johnson? Ran a 4.4 40 out of high school. Alex Lott also contributed, and while small, was anything but slow.

So, strike one and two on RB and WR.

Not even going to go into defense, because it was so bad under Dodge, it wouldn't matter if the 1985 Chicago Bears defensive personnel were lining up for the Mean Green, it would have been a disaster.

Oh, but our two DTs that year weighed 309 (Kelvin Jackson) and 307 (Shavod Adkinson), respectively. Oh, and the back ups? 309 (Kyle White) and 288 (John Weber), respectively. Cantley was a back up at DE at 301.

But, ya, we were "the smallest, slowest team in FBS."...

Edited July 14, 2014 by UNT90

UNT90 · July 14, 2014

Yeah, but that's just the UNT hall of fame. A case can be made for almost everyone getting in from last year's team. It's not like they are saying he was the greatest of all time. Just one of the greatest. And that is relative to the ones you are comparing him to.

Also, a true 4.5 in the 40 is anything but "average" in CUSA. A true 4.4 is one of the fastest players in the league. No one in CUSA, and very very very very very few players in the P5 run a true, electronically timed 4.3 in the forty.

Edited July 14, 2014 by UNT90