"Undersized" D-Line

[MeanGreenD]

I keep reading references to our "small" / "undersized" D-Line so I thought I'd see just how we stack up against Texas and their "superior" / "big" D-Line. Referenced projected 2 deep after spring ball. Top 4 are projected starters:

Texas:

Malcolm Brown (not the HB): 6'4" 305

Desmond Jackson: 6'1" 305

Cedric Reed (D's best player IMO): 6'5" 258

Shiro Davis: 6'3" 249

Bryce Cottrell: 6'3" 240

Alex Norman: 6'4" 295

Hassan Ridgeway: 6'4" 300

Caleb Blueitt: 6'3" 250

Marcus Hutchins: 6'5" 280

North Texas:

Malik Dilonga: 6'4" 251

Austin Orr: 6'4" 272

Alexander Lincoln: 6'2" 267

Daryl Mason: 6'3" 253

Jarrian Roberts: 6'2" 238

Dutton Watson: 6'3" 273

Sid Moore: 6'1" 267

Chad Polk: 6' 223

Andy Flusche: 6'3" 230

As a whole, our D-line is 208 lbs. lighter than Texas. About 23 lbs. per player. They also have 10 inches on us.

Looking at the projected starters, Texas weighs in at a combined 1,052 pounds while North Texas weighs in at a combined 1,043. Talking about a 9 pound difference between 4 players...oh, and there's also 15 weeks left to increase muscle mass. While none of these guys probably won't reach the 300 mark, they all have an opportunity to add some weight.

So let's put this phrase to bed for the rest of the summer. We are not that drastically undersized when you actually evaluate the numbers and there is plenty of time left to get bigger and better. I think this group is in real good hands with Kevin Patrick, John Skladany, and of course, Coach Mac.

Like Wolverine once said, “They say that heroes are born, not made, babe! That’s bull! I’m livin’ proof! Bein’ a hero’s more than havin’ some sort o’ power! Look at Storm! Look at Captain America! They either never had powers or they lost ‘em! What keeps ‘em goin’ is guts! Without guts all the power an’ trainin’ in the world don’t mean spit!”

It's going to take guts, and heart, to beat Texas. That's where I give our boys the edge.

[Harry]

I saw something interesting and related to this in a recruiting article recently. Basically, the coaches who recruit say that you can add size but you can't increase speed. UNT has taken this approach in terms of the defensive line. The two interior d-tackles listed in our post-spring two deep (Austin Orr and Dutton Watson) were both pass rushing defensive ends in high school. Chad Polk was a linebacker who has now converted to defensive end.

So while we have come up short on the prototypical defensive ends and tackles we have improved the speed of our front four every year that Mac has been here. We weren't the biggest defensive line last year but we were very productive, and perhaps the best in C-USA.

My hope is that new defensive line coach Kevin Patrick will work some magic and get us some more prototypical defensive linemen with size to play right away.

[TheTastyGreek]

We are not that drastically undersized when you actually evaluate the numbers and there is plenty of time left to get bigger and better. I think this group is in real good hands with Kevin Patrick, John Skladany, and of course, Coach Mac.

I don't know what point you think you were making... But here's what I see:

Our biggest Defensive Tackle is a backup listed at 273 pounds. Their smallest Defensive Tackle is listed at 287.

Consistently, our interior defensive line guys are about 30-40 pounds smaller than theirs. That's pretty drastic.

If you want to put just the defensive ENDS together on a teeter-totter, our side might not pop that far up in the air. But when you're comparing the part where we're actually undersized... It's pretty dramatic compared to them.

[Mean Green 93-98]

Our biggest Defensive Tackle is a backup listed at 273 pounds. Their smallest Defensive Tackle is listed at 287.

If anyone was wondering about the size of our two deep at DT when Coach Mac first arrived:

Tevinn Cantly - 6'4" 311 lbs

Ryan Boutwell - 6'3" 261 lbs.

Kyle White - 6'2" 309 lbs.

Richard Abbe - 6'4" 319 lbs.

[MeanGreenD]

I don't know what point you think you were making...

The point that there is a lot of time left and they can gain plenty of weight in 15 weeks. And the point that we have quality coaches who will get the best out of them.

Love the passive aggressive start to your post though, keep it tasty!

[MeanGreenTexan]

If anyone was wondering about the size of our two deep at DT when Coach Mac first arrived:

Tevinn Cantly - 6'4" 311 lbs

Ryan Boutwell - 6'3" 261 lbs.

Kyle White - 6'2" 309 lbs.

Richard Abbe - 6'4" 319 lbs.

Those must have been some of the slowest guys he'd ever seen, because they certainly weren't some of of the smallest.

[SilverEagle]

We can compare the weights and heights of our DL vs their DL all you want but they don't line up against one another. The relevant comparison is how our OL compares to their DL and how experienced our OL is going into the game. Right now, one of our biggest strengths is our OL. An OL BTW who took on a SEC school last year. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think our QB got sacked in that game.

So, to me, the real question is how big, fast and experienced is their OL? We know how big their DL is, but how experienced are they?

[IslandEagle]

We can compare the weights and heights of our DL vs their DL all you want but they don't line up against one another. The relevant comparison is how our OL compares to their DL and how experienced our OL is going into the game. Right now, one of our biggest strengths is our OL. An OL BTW who took on a SEC school last year. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think our QB got sacked in that game.

So, to me, the real question is how big, fast and experienced is their OL? We know how big their DL is, but how experienced are they?

Thanks. Just the point I was going to make.

[TheTastyGreek]

The point that there is a lot of time left and they can gain plenty of weight in 15 weeks. And the point that we have quality coaches who will get the best out of them.

Love the passive aggressive start to your post though, keep it tasty!

Not trying to be "passive aggressive", just trying to be diplomatic. Because it seemed like your point was "we're not undersized" when the reality is, looking at the numbers you yourself posted, we are in fact significantly smaller than they are at the one position that everyone is talking about when they say we have an undersized defensive line.

If you're saying that it doesn't MATTER that we're so much smaller than they are, either because everyone is going to gain 30-40 pounds between now and the start of September, or because we're going to supercoach them to the point where a substantial deficit in mass isn't going to matter... Well, that's another point entirely.

[NorthTexan95]

I saw something interesting and related to this in a recruiting article recently. Basically, the coaches who recruit say that you can add size but you can't increase speed. UNT has taken this approach in terms of the defensive line. The two interior d-tackles listed in our post-spring two deep (Austin Orr and Dutton Watson) were both pass rushing defensive ends in high school. Chad Polk was a linebacker who has now converted to defensive end.

So while we have come up short on the prototypical defensive ends and tackles we have improved the speed of our front four every year that Mac has been here. We weren't the biggest defensive line last year but we were very productive, and perhaps the best in C-USA.

My hope is that new defensive line coach Kevin Patrick will work some magic and get us some more prototypical defensive linemen with size to play right away.

Jimmy Johnson used to do the same thing. Move DE's to DT's, LB's to DE's, Safeties to LB. At Iowa State Mac would take middle linebackers who were a little too slow for LB in college and move them to DT.

[DirtySavage]

The height difference also matters quite a bit when it comes to things like arm extension, which is extremely important in OLine Dline play.

Inches Matter.......

Sorry I had to.... haha

[DT 90]

It is not a given that a player will gain weight over the summer. However,it is reasonable to expect a 5 to 10 pound increase. Anything over that is sometimes detrimental to the athlete's performance and makes him susceptible to injury. Both Ryan and Abbe are examples of that. Both played at a lighter weight ( Ryan, 255-260 down from 275, Richard at 300- 305 down from 335 ) in '13 than they did in '12 and both had much better production and neither were dinged with injuries. A gain of of 30 to 40 pounds is totally unrealistic. If they do that, they have eaten themselves out of a job.

and again I have to breakout a fact based opinion:

UNT' 13 Starting lineup averaged 276 lbs

UNT' 10 Average was 300 lbs

UNT'13 gave up 120 yard rushing per game and 10 rushing TDs

UNT'10 gave up 185 yards rushing per game and 23 rushing TDs.

Also the '13 Outland Trophy winner was a 280lbs DT.

Edited May 14, 2014 by DT 90

[MeanGreenD]

Matchups crossed my mind as I was writing this, I think our O-line can handle them.

Tasty, 30-40 lbs is not that drastic to me. However, you have to play with more guts (not size of dog, but fight in dog). I also believe they will add weight, as well as be "supercoached". The combo of these 3 is the key to victory vs their O-line. That's why I don't want to read about these concerns now. Read so much last summer from DT haters when all he did was go out there and play hard. I believe the culture that has been created will develop every player on our team. So eat, train, and eat some more.

DirtySavage, keep it dirty! But...projected starters measure up pretty well.

[MeanGreenD]

It is not a given that a player will gain weight over the summer. However,it is reasonable to expect a 5 to 10 pound increase. Anything over that is sometimes detrimental to the athlete's performance and makes him susceptible to injury. Both Ryan and Abbe are examples of that. Both played at a lighter weight ( Ryan, 255-260 down from 275, Richard at 300- 305 down from 335 ) in '13 than they did in '12 and both had much better production and neither were dinged with injuries. A gain of of 30 to 40 pounds is totally unrealistic.

and again I have to breakout a fact based opinion:

UNT' 13 Starting lineup averaged 276 lbs

UNT' 10 Average was 300 lbs

UNT'13 gave up 120 yard rushing per game and 10 rushing TDs

UNT'10 gave up 185 yards rushing per game and 23 rushing TDs.

Also the '13 Outland Trophy winner was a 280lbs DT.

5-10 lean muscle mass gains across the board would be terrific. That would get the average pretty close to where it was in '13. Thanks for that comparison DT90!

[DirtySavage]

Matchups crossed my mind as I was writing this, I think our O-line can handle them.

Tasty, 30-40 lbs is not that drastic to me. However, you have to play with more guts (not size of dog, but fight in dog). I also believe they will add weight, as well as be "supercoached". The combo of these 3 is the key to victory vs their O-line. That's why I don't want to read about these concerns now. Read so much last summer from DT haters when all he did was go out there and play hard. I believe the culture that has been created will develop every player on our team. So eat, train, and eat some more.

DirtySavage, keep it dirty! But...projected starters measure up pretty well.

I appreciate your enthusiasm mean green brother

[greenminer]

MeanGreenD, with all due respect, this is a reach.

30-40 lbs is a big deal. I don't know how you figure otherwise.

Another thing to consider is that our starters have always been relatively competitive with UT starters. The problem arises when they have the same measuerables all the way down the line, whereas us - as well as other non-P5 schools - lose weight as you get deeper into the 8-9 guy rotation.

It might be more revealing if you take out the top 4 or 5 guys (i.e. starters) and do a comparative look at the guys after that.

I wish I shared your optimism, but I've been looking at these stats for far too long. We are not only undersized by UT standards, we are lighter compared to past Mean Green teams.

[greenminer]

Follow up: I think this point - specific to DL size - is a reach.

I still stand by what I've been posting for months: this is our best chance to win at Austin in years.

Our dogs will have fight and our coaches will have them prepared to play their best.

[MeanGreenD]

Projected starters would look like this with 10 lb gains:

6'4" 261

6'4" 282

6'2" 277

6'3" 263

For reference, Jadaveon Clowney is 6'6" 249 according to Wikipedia.

[DT 90]

For reference, Jadaveon Clowney is 6'6" 249 according to Wikipedia.

More like 270 lbs. You cannot use him as an example. He is a freak. Ryan said he was doing swim moves on Georgia OT's that were 6'6" and 6'7" when he was watching film on Georgia.

Also for reference, Ryan played DT in 2011 at 245 to 250 lbs.

Edited May 14, 2014 by DT 90

[Censored by Laurie]

Projected starters would look like this with 10 lb gains:

6'4" 261

6'4" 282

6'2" 277

6'3" 263

What would UT's projected starters look like with 10 lb gains?

Or are they not going to grow?

[817Fan]

What happened to Sir Calvin Wallace?

[GrayEagle]

To me, I see two different needs at DT. You need a big, strong 290+ pounder to play nose or to one side of center (1,2). The 3 or 4 tech does not have to be as large but should be quick. The big man can clog the lanes leaving the other tackle free to penetrate. So, while every DT doesn't have to be 300 lbs. it would be nice if we had at least a couple.

Having said that, I have a lot more confidence in Coach Patrick to get the best possible matchups from what he has to work with.

[MeanGreenD]

What happened to Sir Calvin Wallace?

I would expect to see him in there against UT, I was just using the projected 2 deep after spring for both teams. He's pushing 300. I'm not exactly sure why he was left off the 2-deep...

Another benefit of having such a strong offensive line is that the young guys on the defensive line will get tough competition in practice which will only speed up their development.

GrayEagle, I'm right there with you on Coach Patrick. Really excited to see these guys perform under his tutelage this fall.

[adman]

What happened to Sir Calvin Wallace?

He doesn't seem to have the requisite want to play at this level.

[GrandGreen]

It is not a given that a player will gain weight over the summer. However,it is reasonable to expect a 5 to 10 pound increase. Anything over that is sometimes detrimental to the athlete's performance and makes him susceptible to injury. Both Ryan and Abbe are examples of that. Both played at a lighter weight ( Ryan, 255-260 down from 275, Richard at 300- 305 down from 335 ) in '13 than they did in '12 and both had much better production and neither were dinged with injuries. A gain of of 30 to 40 pounds is totally unrealistic. If they do that, they have eaten themselves out of a job.

and again I have to breakout a fact based opinion:

UNT' 13 Starting lineup averaged 276 lbs

UNT' 10 Average was 300 lbs

UNT'13 gave up 120 yard rushing per game and 10 rushing TDs

UNT'10 gave up 185 yards rushing per game and 23 rushing TDs.

Also the '13 Outland Trophy winner was a 280lbs DT.

Most weights on roster have not been changed since the beginning of the 2013 season, so the question is not how much they gain over the summer but in the last year.

Again, there are too many concerned about the weight of defensive line men, if you wanted everyone to weight over 320 pounds; you could recruit to accomplish that. There are lot of giants out there, but the problem is the ones who have shown the potential to play in college are going to go to the more renowned programs.

NT could be hurting at dt but IMO more because of lack of experience than size. Only Lincoln has really shown he can play at this level. Orr, Watson, and Wallace are all likely to be over 280 pounds which is big enough particularly if they are quick.

For reference: the first defensive all CUSA team was at de: Enenkpoli 6'2 250 La Tech, Warnsley 6'2 271 Tulane, Henry 6'3 238 FAU DT: Covington 6'3 290 Rice, Rouse 6'5 267 Marshall

Edited May 14, 2014 by GrandGreen