An honest question regarding Benford and Johnny Jones

Harry · May 5, 2014

I know that some on here are ready for Tony Benford to move on down the road after two seasons as head coach. You have the right to your opinion and so I am not questioning that.

My question though is would you have raised the same issues in regards to Johnny Jones?

In Johnny's first season 2001-02 he went 15-14

In his second season he went 7-21... it took Johnny 4 more seasons before he posted a winning record and led the team to an NCAA tournament bid.

So my question is, if the same litmus test was given to Johnny that is being given to Benford by some of us -- ie consecutive losing seasons -- would we have fired a coach that would have taken us to the NCAA tournament and ultimately become a UNT Hall of Famer? Were the same people on here rattling their sabres about Benford doing the same thing towards Johnny when he won only 7 games in a season?

I know some bring up the WKU firing of Ken McDonald and hiring of Ray Harper. I looked McDonald up online... it sure seems like there were other issues involved in that decision as he seemed to be having some off the court stuff from what I was reading...who really knows... WKU played it like it was for the good of the program and I am sure that it was but we haven't seen any issues with Benford off the court. Heck even Tony Mitchell has praised Benford...as a coach...

Now the Oregon State Coach Robinson gets fired and is used as an example of program courage. He was 93-104 in six years at Oregon State with no NCAA tournament appearances for goodness sakes. That is a BCS school with millions of dollars for buyouts...they can't continue to keep him and keep their boosters satisfied. Again, he was there 6 years and we are using that as a comparison to a coach who has been here 2? To me that is an Apples and Oranges comparison.

This is not to say that Benford is without fault because this is a business and you have to produce. He made a mistake on Keith Coleman -- there are others (Armani Flanigan comes to mind). He didn't come to this job with head coaching experience but then again neither did Johnny save an interim stint at Memphis. So like Johnny, he is learning on the job.

The straw man argument is that Benford inherited a sweet 16 caliber team when Johnny left. And there is no doubt that Tony Mitchell is an EXTREMELY talented player and there was some talent on that team. But could it be that the chemistry on that squad was "off"? Could it be that the team was extremely overhyped? I think when you look at Tony Benford's mistakes the biggest one was hyping up that team as much as he did. But what did we expect him to do? Come in to a new job with extremely BIG coaching shoes to fill and play down expectations?

And yes, UNT doesn't have a bunch of money to buy out contracts but I believe someone posted that Benford's buyout would be in the 300-500K range. Don't you think if we were absolutely convinced this coach was on a road to nowhere could we not pay that out? I think we could and would even though it is not an easy thing to do at UNT.

Make no mistake, this year 3 is EXTREMELY important for Benford and if he lays an egg he will be hard pressed to keep his gig. With the exception of Jordan and Chris, it will be his team and he should be held 100% accountable for their performance. He has shown that he can still recruit. Combs from Dallas can play, Greg Wesley will be good and Muhammed Ahmed appears to be a good player as well. I'm interested to see who he lands with this last spot. It will be an entirely different looking team next year.

So put me in the camp that wants to see what Benford will do in year 3 of this thing. If he falters, I will man up, admit I was wrong and join up with those who wanted him gone after year 2. GMG

foutsrouts · May 5, 2014

I just think that expectations for the program were quite a bit lower when Johnny took over, so most diehards were willing to wait out the "on the job training" that JJ seemed to have to go through himself. With higher expectations over the past few years, it's understandable that the same kind of patience given to JJ is not really going to be there for Benford. If there's no serious signs of overall improvement next season, I don't see how anybody could remain patient.

adman · May 5, 2014

What did JJ inherit and what did Benford inherit?

JJ - a complete mess of a program where no one really wanted to go play nor go watch?

TB - a program that had made it to NCAA's, a program gaining popularity, fans, and a place where some guys with talent wanted to go play at.

What will we have once TB is fired? Exactly what JJ had…or worse.

UNT90 · May 5, 2014

Harry as troll? Like it.

Apples and oranges.

12-20 record including a loss to a D2 school on the biggest regular season stage in the last 20 years for UNT and 2 losses to a 4 win team.

This accomplished with a team that was the unanimous pick to win the Sun Belt West and mentioned in at least one national publication as a mid major to watch.

Should have been fired the second he lost by 20 plus to LaLa in the SBC 1st round.

This isn't even a conversation we should be having.

But we are UNT, where any amount of losses is acceptable until the 4th year of the contract.

Edited May 5, 2014 by UNT90

UNTFan23 · May 5, 2014

I don't know if we were ever a sweet 16 caliber team when Benford took over but we were certainly a top shelf team in the Sun Belt at the end of JJ era. The biggest disappoint with Benford was not at least keeping the momentum at the same level. Instead we had our first losing season since I believe 2005-2006, the year before we made it to the NCAA tournament to face Memphis in New Orleans. I would have been fine with a winning record with Benford's first year with winning the first round of the conference tournament. At least I could have felt justified that the change in coaching lead to a slight drop-off in the number of wins.

I think Johnny got lucky in the 2006-2007 season in winning the conference tournament and getting a NCAA bid. From there the program took off and we never really looked back. With that NCAA bid, JJ was able to recruit better players and the success kept building on itself.

Edited May 5, 2014 by UNTFan23

BillySee58 · May 5, 2014

Benford has really struggled with some young, promising players who were also very highly recruited. These guys haven't/didn't progress under Benford and some even regressed. And these were guys who we had to outrecruit some top programs to get. There's a reason 90 brings up the offer lists of Chris Jones, Jordan Williams, and Forrest Robinson so much. And that obviously doesn't even include Tony Mitchell.

Benford is now bringing in multiple players with 0 other offers. These type of players need a good coaching staff to bring them along and develop them. If he's regressing guys with major conference offer lists and going under .500 in conference, what is going to happen with a team of guys with no other offers?

Cerebus · May 5, 2014

Harry, if Mac was to step down tomorrow and his successor was to go 4-8 and 8-8 his first two years, with one of those loses and three of those wins being against SLC schools, and we were for the most part signing recruits with no other FBS offers, would want him to get that third year?

Harry · May 5, 2014

Harry, if Mac was to step down tomorrow and his successor was to go 4-8 and 8-8 his first two years, with one of those loses and three of those wins being against SLC schools, and we were for the most part signing recruits with no other FBS offers, would want him to get that third year?

I agree with you about the schedule point and I am no fan of the watering down of the schedule either. I disagree with the recruiting analogy -- and what I mean by that is that I don't think Benford has hit the point Trilli did where he lost so much he could no longer recruit. Combs and Ahmed were good signings in my opinion.

Look I am not happy with the way things are going with Benford. The point of the post was about had we taken the same position some are taking on Benford with Johnny he might have been fired. I remember a LOT of people were getting real tired of Johnny there right before he had his breakthrough year.

And who is to say the next guy we hire does any better? That seems to be the collective belief here. And does firing someone after 2 years make this a better, more attractive job?

Army of Dad · May 5, 2014

I agree with you about the schedule point and I am no fan of the watering down of the schedule either. I disagree with the recruiting analogy -- and what I mean by that is that I don't think Benford has hit the point Trilli did where he lost so much he could no longer recruit. Combs and Ahmed were good signings in my opinion.

Look I am not happy with the way things are going with Benford. The point of the post was about had we taken the same position some are taking on Benford with Johnny he might have been fired. I remember a LOT of people were getting real tired of Johnny there right before he had his breakthrough year.

And who is to say the next guy we hire does any better? That seems to be the collective belief here. And does firing someone after 2 years make this a better, more attractive job?

The next guy will be cleaning up a dumpster fire.

He will probably still be able to beat a D2 with a roster full of zero D1 offer recruits.

UNT90 · May 5, 2014

Harry, if Mac was to step down tomorrow and his successor was to go 4-8 and 8-8 his first two years, with one of those loses and three of those wins being against SLC schools, and we were for the most part signing recruits with no other FBS offers, would want him to get that third year?

One of those losses to an FCS school. But otherwise, ya.

UNT90 · May 5, 2014

I agree with you about the schedule point and I am no fan of the watering down of the schedule either. I disagree with the recruiting analogy -- and what I mean by that is that I don't think Benford has hit the point Trilli did where he lost so much he could no longer recruit. Combs and Ahmed were good signings in my opinion.

Look I am not happy with the way things are going with Benford. The point of the post was about had we taken the same position some are taking on Benford with Johnny he might have been fired. I remember a LOT of people were getting real tired of Johnny there right before he had his breakthrough year.

And who is to say the next guy we hire does any better? That seems to be the collective belief here. And does firing someone after 2 years make this a better, more attractive job?

If we can't hire better than Benford, then the person doing the hiring should be replaced. Pretty simple.

UNT90 · May 5, 2014

Benford has really struggled with some young, promising players who were also very highly recruited. These guys haven't/didn't progress under Benford and some even regressed. And these were guys who we had to outrecruit some top programs to get. There's a reason 90 brings up the offer lists of Chris Jones, Jordan Williams, and Forrest Robinson so much. And that obviously doesn't even include Tony Mitchell.
Benford is now bringing in multiple players with 0 other offers. These type of players need a good coaching staff to bring them along and develop them. If he's regressing guys with major conference offer lists and going under .500 in conference, what is going to happen with a team of guys with no other offers?

You so get me...€>

Green92 · May 6, 2014

It seems like if the AD wasn't so inconsistent with his hires we don't have to play this what if game all the time with BB and FB. Someone comes in and has a little success that the next person should be able to build on. The AD proceeds to make a disasterous hire and it takes years to fix. You guys have probably forgotten more about BB than I know. What I do know is Benford does not get a pass for blundering year one. The AD made a bad decision just like he did with the FB program after we tasted a little success. The question shouldn't be does JJ get a pass. The question should be, why do we still have to play this stupid what if game every few years.

UNT90 · May 6, 2014

It seems like if the AD wasn't so inconsistent with his hires we don't have to play this what if game all the time with BB and FB. Someone comes in and has a little success that the next person should be able to build on. The AD proceeds to make a disasterous hire and it takes years to fix. You guys have probably forgotten more about BB than I know. What I do know is Benford does not get a pass for blundering year one. The AD made a bad decision just like he did with the FB program after we tasted a little success. The question shouldn't be does JJ get a pass. The question should be, why do we still have to play this stupid what if game every few years.

Anyone can make a bad hire. Stubbornly hanging on to that hire after the year Benford had his first year (much less his second) is a sign of one if two things.

1) we are too cheap to buy out 4 years of a mistake. If that's the case, just drop down in classification and quit pretending something you are not.

2) the AD is too stubborn and Prideful to admit a mistake. The hire isn't the biggest problem here. The refusal to do anything about the hire is the problem.

Cooley · May 6, 2014

Harry, the thread from year 4 of the Johnny Jones era, that I recently brought back up, was locked. There was no difference in how most folks felt about him and Benford. Jones did inherit sufficient talent left over from Vic Trilli and wasn't getting it done. As I pointed out then, recruiting was very disappointing.

This was not a Top 16 program that Benford took over and Tony Mitchell underachieved (see the Detroit Pistons) the short time he was here; for someone with his physical talents. I'm still stunned by that 29 point loss to UTA. LSU fans seem satisfied with his recruiting but question the coaching.

We know that Benford will not be renewed. (at this time) At what point do we move on from the relentless bashing/assaults. How are things working out with the Pederson hire? After finally firing Tina Slinker, after about 20 years (of .500 ball) I expected more. As it turned out, I think the Karen Aston hire was horrible since it set us back to the time other coaches only used this program as a stepping stone. It also reinforced to everyone that UNT was/is 2nd rate.

Lastly, I also am not totally on the Dan McCarney band wagon, as most appear to be. We lucked out with Derek Thompson not performing as poorly as he did in the past. In the mean time, why can't we recruit a good quarterback?(or d-linemen) When will overall recruiting improve? The so called experts rated us near the bottom of the league in February. We are still waiting for a good prospect to tell us yes.

untjim1995 · May 6, 2014

I truly believe that the hardest part of running an athletic department is knowing when to make a personnel change at the head coach or the AD. It costs alot of money to buy out the contracts of people who are obviously not prepared to be head coaches in college or are just totally inept--or both. Its the final bit of proof to your alumni, students, and fans that you want to win first and foremost. NO doubt, that's a hard pill to swallow a lot of times. But that is the cost of playing poker at this level. If you don't want to pay-- or if you cannot pay-- to play at this level, it usually gets seen by your "university family" fairly quickly, telling them that COST is what matters most, not winning. At UNT, no matter what timeframe you look at, nor what revenue sport you look at, COST has always been the most important aspect to funding athletics. Simply put, its not something we really like to spend lots of money on, if at all possible.

Look, I seriously doubt that we can't afford to fire Benford--some big money alums could get together and do it tomorrow, guaranteed. The problem is that you have folks within the university who would rather those alums use their funds to buy pianos, art collections, endowments of scholarships, or new equipment instead of paying for anything athletic. Therefore, its not really that we cannot pay to end this charade, its that we don't want to pay to end it. I suppose in my heart that if I heard RV say that this year, no matter what, we must see significant improvement in the w/l record or changes will be made, that would at least instill in me the idea that Benny has to make it happen by the end of the 2015 season or else. But we don't hear that ever, which means that we are almost forced to believe that we will do what we always do in these situations--wait until we only have to buyout one season of a contract. That is just depressing--especially when our OOC schedule is as pathetic as one can possible be to try and help the AD save face with this abominable hire.

UNT90 · May 6, 2014

And that tells your alumni that you aren't serious about athletics.

If the university isn't serious, why should the alumni care?

They don't.

And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

Censored by Laurie · May 6, 2014

oh good. this again.

TIgreen01 · May 6, 2014

Harry, you're the Godfather....but first you posted that crap about our insiders and AD expecting the combo of Wesley, Coombs, and Ahmed to lead us out of this mess (when that is clearly not as potent as our TMitch, JWill, CJones, Alzee quad that Benford inherited) and now this post?? Have you been Andrew'ed --handed your password over to Benford or RV?? Have you been abducted? Should we contact the authorities?

Harry · May 6, 2014

Harry, you're the Godfather....but first you posted that crap about our insiders and AD expecting the combo of Wesley, Coombs, and Ahmed to lead us out of this mess (when that is clearly not as potent as our TMitch, JWill, CJones, Alzee quad that Benford inherited) and now this post?? Have you been Andrew'ed --handed your password over to Benford or RV?? Have you been abducted? Should we contact the authorities?

UNT90 · May 6, 2014

Harry, you're the Godfather....but first you posted that crap about our insiders and AD expecting the combo of Wesley, Coombs, and Ahmed to lead us out of this mess (when that is clearly not as potent as our TMitch, JWill, CJones, Alzee quad that Benford inherited) and now this post?? Have you been Andrew'ed --handed your password over to Benford or RV?? Have you been abducted? Should we contact the authorities?

Harry = Troll.

I like.