ESPN--Northwestern players get union vote

Army of Dad · March 27, 2014

You make a good point. In fact, the television money and ESPN is part of the issue as well.

All I am saying is the schools need to share some of the dollars. It is not right that the coaches continue to see their salaries increase when the players' tuition, books etc stay comparatively flat. There should be some type of responsibility for injuries that occur when the schools are pocketing millions. It's only fair.

When you use the likeness of players to make a video game that sells millions of copies you have to reimburse the players who you are profiting from. You can't do stuff like that and expect to get away with it.

I want to see them level out the playing field. I am not one that believes the bigs will separate from the smaller schools. If they do that, it will make a lot of the lessor p5 programs become losers -- and they don't want that. So I think the threats of that are just empty ones.

When the NCAA made the decision to limit football scholarships to 25 it made a huge difference in the ability for smaller programs to compete. Before that you had teams signing 100 players just to keep them from signing with their opponents. That was wrong, it had to be addressed. We're nearing that same type of watershed moment again. It will be interesting to see how the NCAA responds.

I disagree, this type of thing will only serve to separate the big boys even further. They will become minor leagues for money sports and there will no longer be a need for 'scholarships' because the players won't be playing for an education, but for a job like a minor league baseball player. At that point why bother with NCAA regulation and then things like scholarship limits and roster sizes can be skewed in favor of the new minor league schools.

I do not watch pro basketball as I much prefer the college version where there are still players that give it their all every game and aren't playing for the money. Should this come down then I just don't see how college basketball will be able to keep its current draw for me.

SilverEagle · March 27, 2014

So funny that the Northwestern coach sided with the NCAA in the suit over the players whom he is supposed to care about the most. Of course he did, he's probably making north of a million.
The dirty little secret that is causing all of this stuff to come to a head is student athletes take all the risk but receive no compensation (other than books and tuition etc) while coaches salaries have skyrocketed.
This may be the beginning of the end of the NCAA as we know it.

Well, as far as I'm concerned that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Million dollar coaches salaries have taken things entirely too far.

forevereagle · March 27, 2014

Just out of curiosity, where is all of this money going to come from? There are very few programs in the black, so it would seem that the money would need to come out of coaches salaries and higher ticket prices unless the NCAA is going to throw some money into the programs to offset. Ultimately, the fans are going to foot the bill here and there may be a considerable number that decide not to pay the freight. Not sure how this will end, but there are a number of ways that it could end badly for everyone.

As for this only affecting private schools, this will eventually hit everyone. How do you compete with a school that can pay players and where they get a say? You do the same thing. If this continues, everyone will follow suit quickly.

RAGEMASTER5000 · March 27, 2014

The Olympics have already figured out this mess.

Harry · March 27, 2014

So Harry, where do you stop? Just football? No Title IX would probably require you to pay women's swimmers as well. Are they risking life and limb? Those super-dangerous golf rounds worth 2k a year in addition to the scholarship?

There's enough ESPN TV money to address this issue 100 times. You could buy an insurance policy for all member universities and come up with a reasonable compensation that could be used for graduate school or let them save the money in a retirement fund...

My question is what happens with the money?

The Big 12 signed at 2.6 Billion deal with ESPN which is 200 million a year and 20 mil per school..

How many buildings and academic advisors and social media managers can you hire??? I want to see the magnifier glass looking at these dollars...I think if you dig in there you will find some grotesque spending.

Is it right that these monies get spent by the schools any way they like and they can pay coaching staffs millions? When the athletes are the product and take on all the risk?

Stan R · March 27, 2014

I agree that there are some common sense things that can be done like stipends, covering all medical costs, REASONABLE stipends, etc. Where this will go off of the rails is when it becomes like a free agent market. Heck I even agree that players should get some sort of percentage of gear sales the univ. is collecting. They shouldn't be scrounging for money on weekends to go have a nice dinner and go out and do something fun. That is ridiculous, I agree with that.

Who the hell knows what reasonable is?? This is going to be a monumental set of court battles. It is quite obvious the Big5 will use this to further separate and create a new division. To some degree however I'd argue that the divisions in program payouts are already there with what can be promised with after graduation jobs, pay anyway.

Harry · March 27, 2014

This article from SI hits the nail on the head. If you have the time PLEASE read this as it is an excellent summary of what got us into this state of affairs.

Here is an excerpt, with link below:

"One or all of these challenges will ultimately succeed because the people in charge of college sports didnt heed the old saw about what happens to pigs and what happens to hogs. The conference commissioners, athletic directors, coaches, and NCAA officials have had a great run of about 15 years in which their revenues have soared while their labor costs remained mostly flat. A lot of that money went into their pockets. And bless the $4 million football coach or the $1 million athletic director. They were only being good capitalists. Its great that Ohio State athletic director Gene Smith negotiated a contract on the open market that pays him a $940,484 base salary and includes bonuses such as the $18,447.94 hell receive because Buckeyes wrestler Logan Steiber won the NCAA title in the 141-pound class this past weekend. It kind of stinks that Steiber doesnt get a penny extra even though he threw some significant scratch in his ADs pocket."

Read more: http://m.si.com/4075602/ncaas-labor-mess/

ChristopherRyanWilkes · March 27, 2014

There's enough ESPN TV money to address this issue 100 times. You could buy an insurance policy for all member universities and come up with a reasonable compensation that could be used for graduate school or let them save the money in a retirement fund...
My question is what happens with the money?
The Big 12 signed at 2.6 Billion deal with ESPN which is 200 million a year and 20 mil per school..
How many buildings and academic advisors and social media managers can you hire??? I want to see the magnifier glass looking at these dollars...I think if you dig in there you will find some grotesque spending.
Is it right that these monies get spent by the schools any way they like and they can pay coaching staffs millions? When the athletes are the product and take on all the risk?

I agree with you Harry and it might not be a popular opinion around here. Even here at UNT our football coach makes far more than the President of the university, it get's to the point where we really have to examine this thing and say is college football really about the university and academics? I won't generalize, but i'm guessing many football players at most major universities do not receive the same education as their peers. Not that there is anything wrong with Kinesiology majors, but how many of these kids are getting degrees in STEM programs that are being pushed heavily at the moment? If this thing was about educating the athlete then we would be putting restrictions on practice time and encourage them to explore more difficult majors that would prepare them for a job market. However, the truth is most of these kids think they will go pro or coach, and are using college football as a means to get there.

Not that there is anything wrong with that, but are we actually concerned about the athletes receiving college educations or are we worried about college football turning into a semi-professional league for our own selfish reasons? Truth is, college athletics has changed, and I include myself in this statement when I say that we have all contributed. We have become so ferociously obsessed with college sports and sports in general that we have fueled this and compelled the schools to continue to pay their coaches and fund their athletic budgets more and more so they can keep up with the in-state or inter-conference rivals. It is a business, don't know many amateur sports with the attendance levels and money being generated that the NCAA does. Now all we can do is sit back and see how this thing turns out.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · March 27, 2014

Can athletics success translate into funding for academics through donations by alumni? Of course, but i'm with Harry, i'd like to see the numbers and see how much it really does. The players definitely deserve some type of protection, paying them might be going a little too far but some type of trust fund with restrictions or caps on it like Harry suggested might not be a bad compromise. It is an entertainment business and the players are the entertainers.

MeanGreenTexan · March 27, 2014

This article from SI hits the nail on the head. If you have the time PLEASE read this as it is an excellent summary of what got us into this state of affairs.
Here is an excerpt, with link below:
"One or all of these challenges will ultimately succeed because the people in charge of college sports didnt heed the old saw about what happens to pigs and what happens to hogs. The conference commissioners, athletic directors, coaches, and NCAA officials have had a great run of about 15 years in which their revenues have soared while their labor costs remained mostly flat. A lot of that money went into their pockets. And bless the $4 million football coach or the $1 million athletic director. They were only being good capitalists. Its great that Ohio State athletic director Gene Smith negotiated a contract on the open market that pays him a $940,484 base salary and includes bonuses such as the $18,447.94 hell receive because Buckeyes wrestler Logan Steiber won the NCAA title in the 141-pound class this past weekend. It kind of stinks that Steiber doesnt get a penny extra even though he threw some significant scratch in his ADs pocket."
Read more: http://m.si.com/4075602/ncaas-labor-mess/

This happens in the real world too folks.

I work my butt off at my agreed salary, and my manager's manager's manager will get bonuses and kudos for the work I'm doing.

Sucks, but it's the reality of the world. Eventually, if I keep working hard, I'll be the manager's manager's manager.

CMJ · March 27, 2014

So, do kids who make the Little League World Series deserve to get paid? I am only halfway kidding. The LLWS makes quite a bit of money from their TV contract ($7.5M a year).

untjim1995 · March 27, 2014

First off, this thing, like the O'Bannon lawsuit won't get settled for a long time, so lots of things will get challenged in the court system for the near future.

If this gets approved, its been a good time for North Texas Athletics, but it is over. There are about 30 NFL-lite and NBA-lite programs that can afford this. You will see those schools leave the NCAA, pay their players, get the media contracts and coverage, and we move on. A school like ours won't even keep teams that you have to pay players for, which I don't blame them a bit. I have always hated the lack of athletic support and funding this university has exhibited, but this is where I would agree wholeheartedly with the university to end the madness.

College sports has become such a big business that it has just followed pro sports into the same trap that money from TV and increased ticket costs are just going to continue forever. They won't. Corporate money drives the pro leagues already, which has created the stale environment that so many teams feel at their stadiums or arenas (see Dallas Cowboys). The big donors at big colleges drive their decisions, but it gets lots of help because of the students. But the way it is going, with these increased costs, it will hit a breaking point for a majority of college kids and their parents.

RAGEMASTER5000 · March 27, 2014

This happens in the real world too folks.

I work my butt off at my agreed salary, and my manager's manager's manager will get bonuses and kudos for the work I'm doing.

Sucks, but it's the reality of the world. Eventually, if I keep working hard, I'll be the manager's manager's manager.

If you were to be injured because of your job and unable to work would you receive workers' compensation?

ChristopherRyanWilkes · March 27, 2014

I have no solutions, just HSO's. I really do think this is the beginning of a major change in college football. There will be court fights, but eventually there will be some changes. Like Cuban said about the NFL, pigs have become hogs.

Ben Gooding · March 27, 2014

This is a travesty. Also, I can't stand Jemelle Hill. How is she employed by espn? Or still employed? Stephen a Smith too.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · March 27, 2014

Anyone interested in reading the legal mumbo jumbo, it can be found here: http://www.nlrb.gov/case/13-RC-121359

UNTFan23 · March 27, 2014

Reclassifying student athletes as semi-professional from amateur really muddies the waters. Would (or should) a semi-pro athlete still be considered a student-athlete if they are getting paid for their likeness being used in a video game and apparel sales?

Paying college athletes will transform college sports and I don't think it will all be good. There will be winners and losers and I fear NT and its fans will be losers.

meangreener · March 27, 2014

This is a travesty. Also, I can't stand Jemelle Hill. How is she employed by espn? Or still employed? Stephen a Smith too.

My favorite Jemele Hill thing was when she said she wouldn't let her kids play football.

Well, then why don't you quit your cushy ESPN job as a football "analyst" if you feel so strongly about the dangers of football?

Hypocrite.

She literally represents all that is wrong with ESPN in a nutshell.

Edited March 27, 2014 by meangreener

ChristopherRyanWilkes · March 27, 2014

I think the legal argument is that they are providing a service (playing football), their scholarship depends on their service (basically they can be fired), and that the University receives economic benefit from this service (employee-employer relationship). In my opinion, it's a pretty sound legal argument and might be difficult to overturn in appeals. Do I agree with this as a fan? Of course not.

untjim1995 · March 27, 2014

Reclassifying student athletes as semi-professional from amateur really muddies the waters. Would (or should) a semi-pro athlete still be considered a student-athlete if they are getting paid for their likeness being used in a video game and apparel sales?

Paying college athletes will transform college sports and I don't think it will all be good. There will be winners and losers and I fear NT and its fans will be losers.

You can easily argue that we have always been on the losing side of college athletics for our existence. A lot of that is our fault, a lot is just due to the schools in our state, and a lot is due to the way the NCAA has governed college athletics.

Look, if this thing goes nuclear, then pick your top 30-40 programs that make money on sports and that's who BCS Bowl Games, March Madness, and the College World Series will involve every year, wihtout any intereference from those below. Then that just turns into a pro-like setup of divisions (instead of conferences) based on geography. For example, the College West Division has USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, and Stanford. The College Southwest Division is Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, LSU, and Kansas. The College Southeast Division is Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, and Florida State. The College Atlantic Division is Clemson, UNC, Kentucky, Louisville, Virginia, and Georgia Tech. The College Midwest Division is Nebraska, Michigan, MIchigan State, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Indiana. The Northeast Division is Ohio State, Penn State, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College.

Obviously, you could add in other schools not listed, but you get the gist of it. I just listed 36 teams that are well-known for making money and being in big TV markets. Add anyone else you think fits this mold, but this is your official minor league system moving forward for the NFL and NBA, as if it wasn't already, basically.

forevereagle · March 27, 2014

You can easily argue that we have always been on the losing side of college athletics for our existence. A lot of that is our fault, a lot is just due to the schools in our state, and a lot is due to the way the NCAA has governed college athletics.

Look, if this thing goes nuclear, then pick your top 30-40 programs that make money on sports and that's who BCS Bowl Games, March Madness, and the College World Series will involve every year, wihtout any intereference from those below. Then that just turns into a pro-like setup of divisions (instead of conferences) based on geography. For example, the College West Division has USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, and Stanford. The College Southwest Division is Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, LSU, and Kansas. The College Southeast Division is Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, and Florida State. The College Atlantic Division is Clemson, UNC, Kentucky, Louisville, Virginia, and Georgia Tech. The College Midwest Division is Nebraska, Michigan, MIchigan State, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Indiana. The Northeast Division is Ohio State, Penn State, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College.

Obviously, you could add in other schools not listed, but you get the gist of it. I just listed 36 teams that are well-known for making money and being in big TV markets. Add anyone else you think fits this mold, but this is your official minor league system moving forward for the NFL and NBA, as if it wasn't already, basically.

And that will probably end my interest in sports. I watch less and less NFL and virtually no NBA. MLB seems to be the only one that I can stomach anymore. The NCAA, despite its flaws, has been where I have been able to find a product I enjoy and this would just kill it entirely.

Mean Green 93-98 · March 27, 2014

You can easily argue that we have always been on the losing side of college athletics for our existence. A lot of that is our fault, a lot is just due to the schools in our state, and a lot is due to the way the NCAA has governed college athletics.

Look, if this thing goes nuclear, then pick your top 30-40 programs that make money on sports and that's who BCS Bowl Games, March Madness, and the College World Series will involve every year, wihtout any intereference from those below. Then that just turns into a pro-like setup of divisions (instead of conferences) based on geography. For example, the College West Division has USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, and Stanford. The College Southwest Division is Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, LSU, and Kansas. The College Southeast Division is Alabama, Auburn, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, and Florida State. The College Atlantic Division is Clemson, UNC, Kentucky, Louisville, Virginia, and Georgia Tech. The College Midwest Division is Nebraska, Michigan, MIchigan State, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Indiana. The Northeast Division is Ohio State, Penn State, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College.

Obviously, you could add in other schools not listed, but you get the gist of it. I just listed 36 teams that are well-known for making money and being in big TV markets. Add anyone else you think fits this mold, but this is your official minor league system moving forward for the NFL and NBA, as if it wasn't already, basically.

Actually, it would probably be even more exclusive than that. Most of those teams don't make bucketsfull of dough--Kansas is actually losing almost $9 million a year as it is. It's difficult to know how boosters (would you still call them that?) would react to the situation if it became a matter of paying players. I'm sure at some schools they would step right up to the plate--SMU and some others have already proven that. But I have to think that many donors would lose interest if college teams became professional sports loosely affiliated with their alma maters. I know I would.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · March 27, 2014

I think the thing that struck me the most in the brief is that essentially players are being paid. You and I have to pay the University to attend them. Universities are paying the players through scholarship to play football. So if they are paying them through scholarship that is not academic based, they are employees. Just like a GA who might be a student but also gets paid to teach classes. Therefor he/she is both a student of the university and an employee.

If they are employees and are getting paid already, are they entitled to things like worker's compensation and 401Ks at least? Depends if you classify them as part-time employees or full-time as well. What if a players get hurt and that cost him millions he could make in the NFL or elsewhere, does the University have to compensate him for that? A lawsuit like that could cripple Universities like UNT.This is going to be an interesting legal battle and hurts my head thinking about it.

Edited March 27, 2014 by ChristopherRyanWilkes

Christopher Walker · March 27, 2014

Anyone interested in reading the legal mumbo jumbo, it can be found here: http://www.nlrb.gov/case/13-RC-121359

Here's something I didn't know until twenty minutes ago:

The Northwestern students are not seeking stipends. They're NOT looking for "pay-to-play".

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/1/28/5354718/college-football-players-union-pay-for-play

They're arguing for 11 points and only one (maybe two) of them are focused on financial benefits.

1. Minimize college athletes' brain trauma risks.

2. Raise the scholarship amount to cover cost of attendance and nothing more

3. Prevent players from being stuck paying sports-related medical expenses

4. Increase graduation rates

5. Protect educational opportunities for student-athletes in good standing

6. Prevent universities from using a permanent injury suffered during athletics as a reason to reduce/eliminate a scholarship

7. Establish and enforce uniform guidelines for all sports to help prevent serious injury and avoidable deaths

8. Eliminate restrictions on legitimate employment and players' ability to directly benefit from commercial opportunities

9. Prohibit the punishment of student-athletes who have not committed a violation

10. Guarantee that college athletes are granted an athletic release from a university if they wish to transfer schools

11. Allow the opportunity for student-athletes of all sports to transfer schools at least once without punishment

They're seriously not advocating for any additional pay because they fully realize that they are currently being paid for their performance.

Also, the NCAA response has been nothing but comical, and it greatly highlights how they're trying to shape the conversation around all this - and by this thread and many others around the internet, I'd say they're succeeding.

http://www.sippinonpurple.com/northwestern-wildcats-football/2014/3/26/5551692/the-ncaa-released-a-statement-on-the-nlrb-ruling-and-it-is

Edited March 27, 2014 by Christopher Walker

untjim1995 · March 27, 2014

And that will probably end my interest in sports. I watch less and less NFL and virtually no NBA. MLB seems to be the only one that I can stomach anymore. The NCAA, despite its flaws, has been where I have been able to find a product I enjoy and this would just kill it entirely.

It would end it for me, too. I watch about 2-3 regular season NBA games per year. Maybe 1-2 NHL games per year. I do watch the NFL, mostly because of living here in DFW and needing to be able to talk to clients about the sport that catches the strong majority of fans' attention, but it isn't anywhere close to being as enjoyable to watch as college football, college hoops, and MLB. Hell, the NBA and college basketball aren't even close to being the same game, from the halves to quarters, from 24 second clock to 35 second clock, and from an anything-goes- defense in college to something still nebulously called "illegal defense"...at least the NFL and college football have more similarities on rules than basketball does.