Kiev Burning

[VideoEagle]

Things are certainly getting interesting today. Russia claims to have an "agreement" to send in an aid column but there are conflicting reports of who "agreed." Is it really an unarmed aid column or a aid column "protected" by half a dozen Russian tank regiments trying to "restore order?"

Here's the story.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

-- That whole area is one HUGE mess... Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Gaza, and even Northern Africa and Nigeria are not very stable... Don't expect us to "fix" everything... in fact we caused the Iraq mess and massive killings taking place because we removed Saddam..... . He was bad, very bad... ... but better than the religious fanatics that have taken over... His way may have been the only way to "control" that place with religious groups that hate each other... even inside of Islam. . [ religious fanatics of any group are not reasonable and very emotional ]

Nigeria area is the most scary (where girls were captured by religious fanatics) .... if a mass exodus erupts... Ebola could be spread ... that could reduce the Earth's population greatly.

Edited August 12, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[forevereagle]

-- That whole area is one HUGE mess... Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Gaza, and even Northern Africa and Nigeria are not very stable... Don't expect us to "fix" everything... in fact we caused the Iraq mess and massive killings taking place because we removed Saddam..... . He was bad, very bad... ... but better than the religious fanatics that have taken over... His way may have been the only way to "control" that place with religious groups that hate each other... even inside of Islam. . [ religious fanatics of any group are not reasonable and very emotional ]

Nigeria area is the most scary (where girls were captured by religious fanatics) .... if a mass exodus erupts... Ebola could be spread ... that could reduce the Earth's population greatly.

[Cerebus]

I was on vacation. Everyone calm down. I'll update this thread once I get caught up on some actual work.

[Army of Dad]

-- That whole area is one HUGE mess... Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Gaza, and even Northern Africa and Nigeria are not very stable... Don't expect us to "fix" everything... in fact we caused the Iraq mess and massive killings taking place because we removed Saddam..... . He was bad, very bad... ... but better than the religious fanatics that have taken over... His way may have been the only way to "control" that place with religious groups that hate each other... even inside of Islam. . [ religious fanatics of any group are not reasonable and very emotional ]

Nigeria area is the most scary (where girls were captured by religious fanatics) .... if a mass exodus erupts... Ebola could be spread ... that could reduce the Earth's population greatly.

This is not the thread you are looking for.

[VideoEagle]

The Russian aid convoy is on it's way from Moscow to the Ukraine. According to a Russian blogger, it left from a military base in unmarked trucks driven by men in military uniforms. Aid convoy or Trojan horse?

Here's a link to the BBC story.

[Censored by Laurie]

This is not the thread you are looking for.

but, by his own definition...Nigeria to Ukraine, around 3500 miles...his post might be in the same "area", no?

[forevereagle]

but, by his own definition...Nigeria to Ukraine, around 3500 miles...his post might be in the same "area", no?

It is all on earth, so in the giant scheme of things, all the same area.

[MeanGreenTexan]

It is all on earth, so in the giant scheme of things, all the same area.

Heck,

You could get there within a few hours from DFW, unless you're flying Malay... ... too soon.

[Rudy]

-- That whole area is one HUGE mess... Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Gaza, and even Northern Africa and Nigeria are not very stable... Don't expect us to "fix" everything... in fact we caused the Iraq mess and massive killings taking place because we removed Saddam..... . He was bad, very bad... ... but better than the religious fanatics that have taken over... His way may have been the only way to "control" that place with religious groups that hate each other... even inside of Islam. . [ religious fanatics of any group are not reasonable and very emotional ]

Nigeria area is the most scary (where girls were captured by religious fanatics) .... if a mass exodus erupts... Ebola could be spread ... that could reduce the Earth's population greatly.

A greater cause of the direction that Iraq has taken is because we failed to negotiate a status forces agreement, or whatever they are called.

[UNT90]

too soon.

That is what the passengers of flight MH17 said while referring to MH370?...

Too soon for too soon?

Edited August 13, 2014 by UNT90

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

A greater cause of the direction that Iraq has taken is because we failed to negotiate a status forces agreement, or whatever they are called.

--

My point was missed ... there are just too many of these situations to expect us fix the world's problems. Yes Nigeria is not in the immediate region, I realize that... but the capture of those girls was also Islamic related which is big issue in much of those countries..... . Ukraine is more about ethic groups it seems and not religion... but that is also a big issue in Iraq, Israel, Gaza and somewhat Syria also. .

We "tried " (unfortunately) to fix Iraq and now the situation is much worse than when Saddam was there... His way may have been the only way (unfortunately) to rule a country with so much hatred in both religion (to each other even) and ethic groups.. Many of us feared after seeing what happened in Iran that what replaced Saddam might be worse ... and it is. I have no problem with what we are doing Iraq now ... but Ukraine is not just a terrorist group really.... it involves another major country.. We failed in Iraq because we did not have put a stable government in place (not sure it was even possible due to ethic and religious differences)..... and it did not take a few days or weeks as Cheney claimed it would... That worked in WWII when the former government still existed and took over again... We had no real plan for Iraq's government after Saddam plus did not understand this is an area not accustomed to Democracy..... Ukraine is bit different but it is not our responsibility to fix them either.. .. Our "fixes" don't work well when a decent former government is not available to take over and what is there doesn't seem to be well supported. ... this started in Kiev... not eastern Ukraine or even Crimea....... Our "fixes" didn't work in Iraq and not in Nam either. In Kuwait.. yes.. the old government was available. .

Edited August 13, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[All About UNT]

A greater cause of the direction that Iraq has taken is because we failed to negotiate a status forces agreement, or whatever they are called.

Or because Maliki's government shuts out any and all Sunni from sharing power.... but keep telling yourself it is about the presence of US troops. The Sunnis ran the country since it's inception and now they don't........simple as that.

[Rudy]

I will defer to people who know more about that issue, who say that the main reason for this current crisis is the fact that we no longer have a presence there.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--- True Rudy ... but it is not our responsibility to run or control THEIR country... but we removed a government (a bad one but stable) and what resulted is an even worse situation. 10,000's have died as a result. Saddam was not sending terrorist abroad... no terrorists acts against us came from there and the WMD claim was bogus just as European countries said it was. ISIS would likely not even exist now if we had not done what we did... Saddam (bad as he was) would have not let it get started.

Back to Kiev and Ukraine.... it is a bad and sad situation... but it is not up to us to control or fix that country either. We didn't fix things in Iraq very well or Nam either.

[forevereagle]

Back to Kiev and Ukraine.... it is a bad and sad situation... but it is not up to us to control or fix that country either. We didn't fix things in Iraq very well or Nam either.

Back to Ukraine and then back away from Ukraine. How about we just stick to Ukraine here.

[UNT90]

There is a political thread.

Use it.

[Cerebus]

There is a political thread.

Use it.

You people are being so petulant that UNT90 is correcting you. UNT90... think about that.

I'm not mad, just really dissapointed.

[Cerebus]

#Ukraine accepted RU aid if it is reloaded on #RedCross trucks but #Russia has rejected it. Now 3 scenarios possible. http://t.co/QcQMvrsRqb

— Ukraine Reporter (@StateOfUkraine)

August 13, 2014

Convoy is still on Russian soil:

Just got to Voronezh: looks like convoy or part of it still at base here- trucks are white line in the pic pic.twitter.com/R5GkAvvpAj

— Courtney Weaver (@courtneymoscow)

August 13, 2014

Gen Breedloves statement:

A humanitarian mission into UKR must be backed by Kiev & under control of a trusted org. Anything else would be an attack on UKR sovereignty

— Phil Breedlove (@PMBreedlove)

August 13, 2014

The part about "no military escort"--> Russian Military Helicopters Flying Ahead Of Convoy Near Belgorod: http://t.co/YDq5eDE0Gq

— Michael Weiss (@michaeldweiss)

August 13, 2014

Edited August 13, 2014 by Cerebus

[Cerebus]

ITAR: Putin arrives in Sevastopol to meet with Security Council

At a meeting with Security Council members Russian President Vladimir Putin has discussed Crimea’s security and struggle with corruption in the newly-incorporated territories of Russia, presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.
---
The meeting in Sevastopol, where Putin had arrived earlier in the day, was attended by all Security Council members.

“The security of the Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol and the operation of law enforcement agencies were on the agenda,” Peskov said, adding that the foreign aspect of Crimea’s security enjoyed attention among other issues.

President Vladimir Putin arrived in Sevastopol on Wednesday for a meeting with members of the Russian Security Council.

The meeting will be held at the Black Sea Fleet headquarters in Sevastopol, which is the first destination of his two-day trip to the peninsula.

Remember that ITAR is Russian government run.

[Cerebus]

Igor Girkin gives an interview to Pravda and claims that the airlines was full of dead bodies when it was shot down. Possible western conspiracy. Fight through the bad tranlation.

Pravda: Strelkov says that the downed airliner carrying are dead people

I'm torn between wanting him to stand docket at The Hague or to be intimately introduced to some 5.56, either way I hope it happens soon.

Sometime Christmas comes early!

ITAR: Defense Minister Igor DNR Gunmen seriously wounded

"Igor Strelkov seriously wounded. This is what we said a source in the New Russia. Condition Minister of Defense DNI heavy", - the report says.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Cerebus

[Cerebus]

Yahoo: NATO nears agreement on beefing up presence in eastern Europe: Poland

Sikorski told Reuters he believed the Kremlin could still invade eastern Ukraine, though he said the possibility of Russian troops entering under cover of a humanitarian aid convoy now heading towards the Ukrainian border had receded somewhat in the past few days.

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He said he believed Putin's latest strategy was to foment in eastern Ukraine a "frozen conflict" similar to the one in Moldova's Transdniestria region, which has for decades now been controlled by Moscow-backed separatists.

The aim is "to distract Ukraine from implementing the association agreement (with the EU) and thereby making it more difficult for Ukraine to become a successful free market democracy," Sikorski said.

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Polish farmers have warned of heavy losses after Russia, a major importer of Polish agricultural produce, responded to new EU sanctions by imposing an embargo on imports of many food items from Europe.

"We knew all along that, having a much higher proportion of trade, exports to Russia than other countries, double the rate of Germany for example, we would pay a higher price, which is why we were not gung-ho about sanctions," Sikorski said.

Asked if, despite the cost, Poland would stand firmly by the sanctions on Russia, he said: "Sure, of course."

Translation: Losing all this money sucks, but not as much as being part of the USSR did.

[Cerebus]

NYT: Ukraine Crisis Hardens Germany Against Russia, an Old Partner

Over recent months, something significant has happened in Europe: In the crisis over Ukraine, Germany has assumed leadership not just in its familiar fashion of trying to coax Russia away from belligerence and bluster, but in standing firm and imposing sanctions on Moscow even if it hurts German business.

Perhaps even more remarkable is that Germans, long anxious to preserve commercial, energy and cultural ties with their vast eastern neighbor, have gone along. Seventy percent of 1,003 adults polled last week by Infratest dimap for the public broadcaster ARD approved of stricter sanctions; just 15 percent viewed Russia as a reliable partner in a poll with a three-percentage-point margin of sampling error.

---

But the shocking downing of a Malaysian passenger airliner over eastern Ukraine in July hardened many Germans’ resolve and, with Germany leading, led to even tougher European sanctions on Moscow. Now, as Russia sends a huge convoy it says is delivering aid to beleaguered eastern Ukraine, Berlin is firmly warning Moscow not to exploit the column of trucks for military use or proceed without Ukrainian agreement, and telling Ukraine to show restraint and not worsen the plight of trapped civilians.

This is a semi-lengthy article, but I highly recommend reading it. Germany was the main opponent to tough EU sanctions against Russia, and them moving is a huge moment.

[Cerebus]

Or because Maliki's government shuts out any and all Sunni from sharing power.... but keep telling yourself it is about the presence of US troops. The Sunnis ran the country since it's inception and now they don't........simple as that.

I seriously thought about starting an Iraq/ISIS/etc thread, and having a huge initial post that presents a lot of background. But after just a little but of though it was clear to me it would be WAY to much work.

[VideoEagle]

NYT: Ukraine Crisis Hardens Germany Against Russia, an Old Partner

This is a semi-lengthy article, but I highly recommend reading it. Germany was the main opponent to tough EU sanctions against Russia, and them moving is a huge moment.

I couldn't find the article, but DW had something about the German business organization to promote trade with Russia had come out saying Germany MUST increase it's sanctions against Russia. When the business people themselves are expressing the need and willingness to take an economic hit, that says a lot about the change of feelings in Germany. It was nearly two weeks ago now.