Kiev Burning

[All About UNT]

after the Pro-Russia element retreat after this rock battle..... they mostly head back to the Trade Union and set up barricades there.

Then this occurs...

[All About UNT]

another angle of the Trade Union fire

http://youtu.be/je1neAJT4Hs

[adman]

Ive seen better riots accompanied with Super Bowl parades.

[All About UNT]

and the aftermath

This next one is a bit graphic

[adman]

Dont I feel like a dick now.

[All About UNT]

in case you missed these guys in the rock-throwing battle video

Pro-Russians hiding beneath the police tortoise formation. Of course Russian media has tried to convince people that these were in fact Ukrainian Nazi-Facist-Junta Supporting-Hitler Loving Nationalists that are shooting their own just to make matters worse and blame it on the Pro-Russian side.

same chubby guy again before they retreated down the street.....and right in view of the police.

The Pro-Russians before the scheduled march of unity came through.....in full ambush mode

I think what happened in Odessa was fairly obvious. Two soccer clubs scheduled a march and a demonstration of Ukrainian unity and they were met and ambushed by armed thugs. Shoots were fired....pro-Ukrainians died in the street and it started a frenzy that ended at the steps of the trade union with Molotovs being thrown into the building. I don't condone the actions of those that started the fire but with the images and video you can clearly see from individuals on the ground I can see how the people responded the way they did.

This image shows the crowd before they started their unity march. Notice the absence (in this pic anyway) of any weapons or armament?

[TheTastyGreek]

So, things are all good over there now?

[MeanGreenTexan]

According to this thread, things have really settled down over there.

[Censored by Laurie]

So, things are all good over there now?

Or Cerebus is dead.

Long live, Cerebus!

[Cerebus]

Or Cerebus is dead.

Long live, Cerebus!

Grandmother had a medical emergency.

She's fine and cracking jokes now, so I'll once I catch up on my job (yes, I am gainfully employed) I'll get on this.

[TheTastyGreek]

Grandmother had a medical emergency.

She's fine and cracking jokes now, so I'll once I catch up on my job (yes, I am gainfully employed) I'll get on this.

Too late. I saw something shiny in the past week, and I'm a bit distracted now.

I'm just going to assume that everything over there worked out just fine. If not, please tell me which American politician I should blame so I can move on already. I'm pretty worried about this missing plane and the demented old racist that owns that basketball team.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

According to this thread, things have really settled down over there.

.

--- I think most here have now decided they are very unsure about what to think about it all. The Ukraine government is so bad and ineffective plus corrupt even the locals are uncertain of who to support. .. Remember where this mess all started... in Kiev ..not Crimea.. or even eastern Ukraine ...It started in their nation's capitol. About all that is reasonably clear...the Russians in Ukraine think rejoining Russia is a good option and those non-Russians want a stable Ukrainian but non-Russian government.... We and others (includes Russia) need to keep out of it and let them solve their own problem. -- an exception would be one group just killing the other one such as happened in Rhodesia, Serbia/Bosnia, Nazi-Germany, or Cambodia in the past...

[Cerebus]

Remember where this mess all started... in Kiev ..not Crimea.. or even eastern Ukraine ...It started in their nation's capitol.

This is BS and I have explained it to you many times but I guess you just don't want to here it. Putin put in place a corrupt government, and the people got fed up with it. I guess you consider not living under foreign domination to be "starting a mess."

About all that is reasonably clear...the Russians in Ukraine think rejoining Russia is a good option

That's a great point. Except for the fact that the polls Russia accidentally released showed that not even 50% of the ethnic Russians in the Eastern regions of Ukraine want to be part of Russia, and that other polls show the majority of Ethnic Russians in the Western regions want to remain Ukrainian.

So I guess it's actually a terrible point. Par for the course. Carry on.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Ok.... . I should have stated many Russians.. instead of Russians in general.... In any case everyone wants stability.... not the mess they have now ... whoever is responsible for it..

It has been nearly 25 yrs.. since Ukraine broke away from the USSR ..... I have a bit of trouble with the claim that Putin put that government in place.... and it is still in control. What ever government existed has been tossed .... let them sort it out ... if Russia stays out of the country. What ever happens may not be to our complete liking... but it is their country.

Edited May 14, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[gksmith]

Ok.... . I should have stated many Russians.. instead of Russians in general.... In any case everyone wants stability.... not the mess they have now ... whoever is responsible for it..

It has been nearly 25 yrs.. since Ukraine broke away from the USSR ..... I have a bit of trouble with the claim that Putin put that government in place.... and it is still in control. What ever government existed has been tossed .... let them sort it out ... if Russia stays out of the country. What ever happens may not be to our complete liking... but it is their country.

The bad part is Putin isn't interested in staying out of Ukraine. Outside of US direct intervention (military), the economic sanctions will take a long time to take effect.

[Cerebus]

Gentlemen.

Events have kept me out of this thread, I won't go into them but always make sure you treasure your relations and understand the greatest gift one can have is health. And probably youth. Since we're all old in this thread I wasn't going to bring it up... but I just did. Oh well.

A quick catch up:

• Russian special forces and other Russian backed supporters have teamed up with Ethnic Russians living in regions of eastern Ukraine to occupy govt buildings and organize a "separatist" movement. If by "separate" you mean "joining Russia."
• The separatists fomented public anger and help a referendum to vote on breaking of from Ukraine. You know the free and fair election where armed men watched you cast your non secret ballot.
• The Kremlin accidentally released the fact that only about 15% of the population voted for separation, but hell, the show must go on.
• The last few weeks have been chewed up by Ukraine trying to tightrope walk a line between forcing the separatists out of heavily populated cities, without causing so much destruction that Putin feels he has a free hand to "restore order and protect ethnic Russians."
• Stunning everyone, Putin hasn't sent in the Red Army yet.

So what does this all mean? I'm, not sure but they separatists have to be shocked that 1) Ukraine sent in the troops, and 2) once they did, Putin did not.

In fact it looks like they are starting to lose support.

Putin really can't send in the SF to cause trouble and rabble rouse without the support of the most powerful people in the region. Luckily for him, most of the powerful people in Eastern Ukraine are ethnic Russians. Men such Rinat Akhmetov, a powerful industrialist who used his influence to initially back Putin play. Now, with things spiraling into chaos, and no stabilization coming from Russia, is now turning his back on the seperation play. He paid to have this broadcast all over the region:

The richest man in Ukraine, "owner of Donbass", billionaire Rinat Akhmetov, formerly charged in finance separatists, made on the evening of 05/19/2014 sensational appeal urging workers Donbass companies out to rally against the People's Republic of Donetsk.

This weakening of resolve can be seen at all levels.

INFORESIST: Separatists are demoralized. They can be finished off

Interview of Sergiy Shapoval, who spent three weeks in captivity of Donetsk separatists.

Are the ideas of the Donetsk People’s Republic supported in Donetsk?

Ordinary people in Donetsk do not support Donetsk People’s Republic. Do you remember on Maidan there were hundreds of volunteers, who cooked and brought food.

In Donetsk the militants make their own sandwiches, and there are few announcements a day from the stage that they need women to cook food. I saw and heard it all, because I was in a room, which windows overlook the main entrance to the Donetsk Regional State Administration.

Then why the Regional Administration is still not freed?

Because they have machine guns. There are a lot of arms there. I have seen Kalashnikovs, I have seen antitank grenade and objects, which looked like anti-tank mines

What does the place of protests, the tents village looks like?

Tents village is a loud name for it. There are two or three tents.

There is a stage, but it is always empty. Not like it was on Maidan, where everyone wanted to come out and say something. There, they either play “Get up, enormous country” (old Soviet song – ed.) or a granny reads her poems or a granddad tells how much he should like to throttle Liashko. Or they show reports and news of the channel “Russia 24″

What is your forecast for the development of events?

Separatists can be easily finished off. If they are not given any surge, like the one in Odessa. They are demoralised, they do not know what to do. They do not see any outcome. Donetsk People’s Republic, for which they live half hungry and die exists only in the Donetsk Regional Administration.

The above article is a very good read, well worth your time.

Even the citizens, who truthfully probably didn't care too much if they lived in what was considered Russia or Ukraine, are really fed up with chaos and ahardship cause by the armed men, and really just want things to go back to normal. Here is a video of a couple of babushkas harassing some guys at a checkpoint until they just leave.

How is this all going to turn out? I don't know. I think maybe the minor hardships caused by the sanctions, and the huge problems caused by the threat of larger sanctions, have forced Putin to slow his play.

Long term, he still wants what he always wanted, Russian hegemony over a new form of the old USSR. However, the time doesn't seem right. Hopefully the West doesn't forget this and remains on guard.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Cerebus

[Cerebus]

Any interest in this still?

[H-towngreen]

Yes

[Mean Green 93-98]

Yep. But things tend to go better here when you talk and the rest of us mostly just listen.

[forevereagle]

Yep. But things tend to go better here when you talk and the rest of us mostly just listen.

This.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Any interest in this still?

This is your labor of love sir. You decide when it dies.

[adman]

Yes.

[Army of Dad]

Still plenty of interest.

[Cerebus]

Seems like the separatists are not done yet.

BBC: Donetsk sees deadliest attack on troops

A dawn attack on a checkpoint in eastern Ukraine has left at least 14 soldiers dead, in the worst loss of life for government forces to date.

The attacks come just three days before Ukraine's presidential election.

Russia appears to be withdrawing troops from its border with Ukraine, easing fears of a military intervention like in Crimea in March.

Nato chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen said in a tweet that Russian troop activity near the Ukraine border might suggest that some Russian forces were preparing to pull back.

Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered troops near the border to withdraw to their bases earlier this week. Correspondents say removing the troops - estimated to number 40,000 - could help de-escalate the Ukraine crisis.

[Cerebus]

TDB: Why Putin Really Will Pull Back

What made Putin change his mind about leaving the army poised to help pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine? Why would he disappoint them as they’re waiting for the Russian soldiers as saviors?

“Clever people finally managed to convince him that he was a little wrong about Ukraine,” says Igor Bunin, director of Center of Political Technologies, listing the reasons for Putin’s decision: “that pro-Russian sentiment is not necessarily as significant as some like to present it; that providing for the Luhansk and Donetsk regions would be expensive for Russia; and most importantly, that the third stage of sanctions threatened the Russian economy.”

But the main reason for the withdrawal was the number of troops: “It is one thing to invade Ukraine, and a different thing to keep the occupied regions under control,” says military expert Alexander Golts. Putin had thousands of rapid-reaction troops at hand just 50 kilometers (31 miles) away from the Luhansk region, on highways leading into Ukraine. But to control millions of people living in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions, Russia would need to set up thousands of checkpoints that would require bringing draftees to Ukraine. “That all sounded too problematic,” Golts says.

---

Many of Putin’s supporters are disappointed. “For now, we are defeated: We won 2 million people in Crimea but lost 43 million in the rest of Ukraine,” pro-Kremlin expert Yuriy Krupnov told The Daily Beast. He raised the possibility that “the war might begin as a result of our forces retreating, as a result of our weakness.” But then he added, “The main battle is ahead of us—it is for Central Asia.”