Kiev Burning

[Cerebus]

Putin Calls Obama to Discuss Ukraine, White House Says

Officials did not describe details about the proposal but said that Mr. Obama told Mr. Putin during the call that the United States would like to see a diplomatic solution that involves Russia pulling back its troops from the Crimea and not making any further steps to invade other parts of Ukraine.

Just a guess, but I bet Putin said this:

[UNT90]

Or maybe "wish in one hand...

[KRAM1]

How's that "we'll just sit down and talk to them" bravado working out for Obama these days?

[adman]

The unfortunate thing for the U.S. and even more so the Ukraine, is we've gone about starting ambiguous, un-winnable, idiotic wars, exhausting troops and budgets only for a legitimate issue to come along.

[UNT90]

The unfortunate thing for the U.S. and even more so the Ukraine, is we've gone about starting ambiguous, un-winnable, idiotic wars, exhausting troops and budgets only for a legitimate issue to come along.

The absolute dumbest and most political post in this thread. Don't blame this situation on anything but the absolute ignorance of the current administration to understand how important American influence and might is to many people outside and inside this country.

Please leave the "this is Bush's fault" bullshit outside an intelligent thread.

[adman]

The absolute dumbest and most political post in this thread. Don't blame this situation on anything but the absolute ignorance of the current administration to understand how important American influence and might is to many people outside and inside this country.

Please leave the "this is Bush's fault" bullshit outside an intelligent thread.

You are one myopic mother fucker.

[GreenMachine]

You are one myopic mother fucker.

So do you agree or disagree with his response to your post?

[UNT90]

You are one myopic mother fucker.

How dare you call me myopic!

[adman]

So do you agree or disagree with his response to your post?

Im going to have to disagree. I did not blame the situation in Ukraine on President Bush. However, our ability to react to any major military issue outside of the Middle East is limited due to our 12+ years of war. That was my point and one I thought was pretty easily understood.

Now, if my believing the war on terror is dumb and unwinnable makes my previous post "political" then so be it.

Please do carry on with the updates and insight Cerebus as I do enjoy reading your work.

[UNT90]

Im going to have to disagree. I did not blame the situation in Ukraine on President Bush. However, our ability to react to any major military issue outside of the Middle East is limited due to our 12+ years of war. That was my point and one I thought was pretty easily understood.

Now, if my believing the war on terror is dumb and unwinnable makes my previous post "political" then so be it.

Please do carry on with the updates and insight Cerebus as I do enjoy reading your work.

Our ability to react is only limited by the lack of will to do so. There is no doubt we have the military ability to do so.

Are you saying we are too war weary from Iraq and Afghanistan to react or are you saying we don't have the assets?

[Mean Green 93-98]

Our ability to react is only limited by the lack of will to do so. There is no doubt we have the military ability to do so.

Are you saying we are too war weary from Iraq and Afghanistan to react or are you saying we don't have the assets?

It is ironic that we have been making such drastic military reductions at the same time we've been fighting these "unwinnable wars." The primary one which has been enthusiastically supported by Obama.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

It is ironic that we have been making such drastic military reductions at the same time we've been fighting these "unwinnable wars." The primary one which has been enthusiastically supported by Obama.

..

You do realize we spend more than Russia, United Kingdom, France, and China combined for the military... We also spent a fortune chasing weapons in Iraq that didn't exist which most European countries said didn't.. How did that turn out for us other than 1000's killed and permanently injured. .??.. Saddam ( a thug) had been killing the Islamic crazies in that country which now are there. No terrorist acts prior to then to us had involved any Iraq citizens.. 16 of the 19 terrorist of 9-11 were from Saudi Arabia.. none from Iraq. Plus we have no business sending our troops into the Ukraine.... we don't rule the world. . Do you think we should reopen Fort Davis and the western forts, they also were cut from the budget in the past....

Drastic.?? A lot of the cuts involve obsolete systems or weapons. One thing that bothers me is there now is no way for us to get to the space station or any satellite to repair anything... Those developmental programs were cut LONG ago (before Obama) from NASA.. We now depend on Russian systems....dumb.

Edited March 29, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Mean Green 93-98]

..

You do realize we spend more than Russia, United Kingdom, France, and China combined for the military...

Yes, that has been brought up several times in this thread.

We also spent a fortune chasing weapons in Iraq that didn't exist which most European countries said didn't.. How did that turn out for us other than 1000's killed and permanently injured. .??..

I never mentioned Iraq, but I know you like to avoid issues actually under discussion. As far as Iraq, there were other military objectives besides WMDs. When President Bush and Congress were making the case for Iraq, I never could understand why they made it all about that. Iraq was a good place to take out a hostile regime and get a foothold in the Middle East. Unfortunately, Iraq continues to be poorly handled, even though military objectives there were much more obtainable than in Afghanistan.

Do you think we should reopen Fort Davis and the western forts, they also were cut from the budget in the past....

Huh? If they give us a strategic advantage, then I suppose it could be considered. The point is, we have cut things from our military that have significantly reduced our strategic advantage, as has been pointed out more than once in this thread.

Drastic.?? A lot of the cuts involve obsolete systems or weapons.

That's not what I'm talking about, and you know it.

[Rudy]

First, to suggest we can't engage in military action now because of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are ludicrous. We have the funding, manpower, and equipment.

Secondly, maybe we could get back to the issue at hand...but then again, this is the gomeangreen pie forum, so probably not.

[UNT90]

..

You do realize we spend more than Russia, United Kingdom, France, and China combined for the military... We also spent a fortune chasing weapons in Iraq that didn't exist which most European countries said didn't.. How did that turn out for us other than 1000's killed and permanently injured. .??.. Saddam ( a thug) had been killing the Islamic crazies in that country which now are there. No terrorist acts prior to then to us had involved any Iraq citizens.. 16 of the 19 terrorist of 9-11 were from Saudi Arabia.. none from Iraq. Plus we have no business sending our troops into the Ukraine.... we don't rule the world. . Do you think we should reopen Fort Davis and the western forts, they also were cut from the budget in the past....

Drastic.?? A lot of the cuts involve obsolete systems or weapons. One thing that bothers me is there now is no way for us to get to the space station or any satellite to repair anything... Those developmental programs were cut LONG ago (before Obama) from NASA.. We now depend on Russian systems....dumb.

Right, because nothing is your fearful Leader's fault.

America has had a huge role in keeping the world a mostly peaceful place for the last 60 years. People like you would have us abdicate that role and let the world backslide into a more barbaric era, all in the name of your own convenience.

Sadly, more and more Americans are ignoring history and focusing on their next iPhone or iPad.

So, after Putin takes Ukraine while we sit on our hands, do you think he is done? Should we intervene if he moves on Poland? Romania?

When exactly would you do something if you were your fearful leader?

Edited March 30, 2014 by UNT90

[Army of Dad]

I'm just waiting for the epic mockings the cerebus is sure to be dishing out any time now.

[adman]

This is interesting.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/30/america-may-have-just-unveiled-a-new-weapon-to-com.aspx

[Cerebus]

What the hell is wrong with you people? Stop crapping this thread up. Stop trying to score political points. Can we at least all pretend we are functional adults? Is that too much to ask?

Here's a little tip, this thread is about geopolitical events, of course some US politics will play into it. BUT, there is no reason to dirty this discussion with it more than necessary. Before you push the Post button, look at it. Is it something germane to the thread that happens to have some local US politics in it? Fine, make sure you tone it down as much as possible and try to not rile up the other side. IS IT SOMETHING THAT IS TANGENTIALLY TIED TO THE DISCUSSION WHERE YOUR PRIMARY POINT IN POSTING IS TO TRY AND SCORE POINTS FOR WHATEVER PART YOU VOTE FOR?!?! DON'T. FUCKING. POST IT.

You can probably guess my political leanings, but I have tried to remain as neutral as possible. I am talking to both sides about this. Everyone needs to watch it. Everyone.

Everyone?

I really can't make it any clearer than this. Keep it up and I'll just delete the thread.

[Cerebus]

This is interesting.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/30/america-may-have-just-unveiled-a-new-weapon-to-com.aspx

It is an interesting article, but I do have some doubt in it. For example:

According to economist Phillip Verleger in a recent Quartz article, if the U.S. were to release only 500,000 barrels per day from the SPR, it would lead to a $10 drop in oil prices and would cost Russia $40 billion in sales. At this pace, we could maintain this pace for more than four years and could potentially cause Russia's GDP to drop by 4%.

What the author is not taking into account is a $10 price would slow production around the world also. At that point you have to either start to release more to keep the same effect, or prices will ramp back up because of the lowered production. A better alternative (IMHO) is to work with Ukraine and other counties in Eastern Europe that have undeveloped fields and bring them up to production.

An even better idea would be to work to having Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) export facilities built on the east cost of the US ASAP. Russia exports a ton of natural gas, about of third of Europe's needs. This is a huge lever and is one of the reasons the EU was unwilling to have hard crackdown sanctions. Russia also charges three times the rate that US NG is sold for. Why? There is no way right now to economically ship LNG to Europe from the US. Even if the cost of building those facilities and shipping was passed on to the consumer, it would likely be half as expensive as the gas they get now.

Russia needs expensive ($100/BBL) oil and expensive gas to balance its budget. Making them face more local competition would drive down those prices. At that point, it's the end of the Cold War all over again, as Russia spirals into second nation status while it's economy sputters.

[Cerebus]

Russian force distribution.

[Cerebus]

Some twitter updates:

Dmitry Medvedev has become the highest-level Russian politician to visit Crimea since the annexation. Currently in Sevastopol.

— Daniel Sandford (@BBCDanielS)

March 31, 2014

#Pic: #Ukraine #airforce Su-27 'Flanker' taking part in #military exercise over the weekend involving 8,500 troops. pic.twitter.com/LIjfUdZXVk

— Nick de Larrinaga (@NickJDWEurope)

March 31, 2014

#Picture: #Swedish #airforce JAS 39 #Gripen #fighters training over the #baltic nations this weekend. #jdw pic.twitter.com/WkxlrCxuVe

— Nick de Larrinaga (@NickJDWEurope)

March 31, 2014

Russian Kilo Class Submarine Alrosa & ex-Ukrainian Foxtrot Class Zaporizhzhia seen together Sunday @ Sevas ©Greywind pic.twitter.com/toivNBblhJ

— Missilito (@Missilito)

March 31, 2014

[Cerebus]

Reports that the Russian's experimental UAV has been seen over Ukraine.

[Cerebus]

AP: CONFLICT WITH RUSSIA GALVANIZES UKRAINE'S IDENTITY

He's one of Russia's favorite doctors, the author of books read by parents from Moscow to Siberia. And he lives in eastern Ukraine where the Russian language is dominant and ties to Russia strong.

But when Russia seized control of Crimea, Yevgeny Komarovsky sent this blunt message to the Russian people: We Ukrainians are a nation of our own.

The appeal for an independent and united Ukraine by the Russian-speaking Komarovsky underscored Ukraine's distinct national identity, and belied Russian President Vladimir Putin's claim that Ukraine is part of the Russian family. In fact, Russia's invasion — which Putin justifies by saying he needs to protect Russian speakers — has fueled a surge of patriotism among a great many Ukrainians, whatever their language.

Good read about cultural differences between Russians and Ukrainians. People rush to understand the military differences in a conflict, but often overlook the cultural.

[Cerebus]

Reuters: Russia threatened countries ahead of UN vote on Ukraine-envoys

Russia threatened several Eastern European and Central Asian states with retaliation if they voted in favor of a United Nations General Assembly resolution this week declaring invalid Crimea's referendum on seceding from Ukraine, U.N. diplomats said.

According to interviews with U.N. diplomats, most of whom preferred to speak on condition of anonymity for fear of angering Moscow, the targets of Russian threats included Moldova, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan as well as a number of African countries.

A spokesman for Russia's Mission to the U.N. denied that Moscow threatened any country with retaliation if it supported the resolution, saying: "We never threaten anyone. We just explain the situation."

[Cerebus]

Not sure of source... but:

200 Polish Leopard II A4/5 Tanks headed to the Ukrainian Border