Kiev Burning

[H-towngreen]

Cerberus, where are our updates!??

[Cerebus]

Cerberus, where are our updates!??

I've been sick. I'll start posting some this afternoon.

I just want to say this: Unless Putin's plan is to round up the Ukrainians and send them to death camps, stop calling him Hitler. You don't make your argument against him stronger, you just cheapen what Hitler did. It's just sensationalism and bad history.

You already have the perfect archetype to call him: STALIN!

[UNT90]

I've been sick. I'll start posting some this afternoon.

I just want to say this: Unless Putin's plan is to round up the Ukrainians and send them to death camps, stop calling him Hitler. You don't make your argument against him stronger, you just cheapen what Hitler did. It's just sensationalism and bad history.

You already have the perfect archetype to call him: STALIN!

I disagree. Stalin fought off the Germans and never left the countries that he evicted the Germans from. The Russian troops were seen initially as liberators. Then they stayed... And stayed... And stayed.

The difference is Stalin never invaded a free country to take what he wanted. Hitler did, so has Putin, hence the analogy.

Obviously no one is accusing Putin of genocide...

Yet...

EDIT: actually forgot about Poland and Finland pre-WWII, so Stalin would be an apt comparison. Problem is, like me, people forget those invasions and hence the Hitler comparisons, on a strictly military basis.

Edited March 18, 2014 by UNT90

[H-towngreen]

I've been sick. I'll start posting some this afternoon.

I just want to say this: Unless Putin's plan is to round up the Ukrainians and send them to death camps, stop calling him Hitler. You don't make your argument against him stronger, you just cheapen what Hitler did. It's just sensationalism and bad history.

You already have the perfect archetype to call him: STALIN!

It seems like this is pretty well wrapped up. Putin did what he wanted. The world stood by and watched. Obama gave the slightest of wrist slaps to a few of Putins sidekicks. The only thing it watch is if Putin pushes his military futher into Ukraine.

[UNT90]

The only thing it watch is if Putin pushes his military futher into Ukraine.

Or Poland.

Or Romania.

This is far from "wrapped up."

[Cerebus]

Obviously no one is accusing Putin of genocide...

I see you corrected the other error in your post, so let me talk about this. You don't think that is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE? Here is what Hitler had to say about the Jews in 1925:

The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight. Thus it denies the value of personality in man, contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from humanity the premise of its existence and its culture. As a foundation of the universe, this doctrine would bring about the end of any order intellectually conceivable to man. And as, in this greatest of all recognizable organisms, the result of an application of such a law could only be chaos, on earth it could only be destruction for the inhabitants of this planet.

If, with the help of his Marxist creed, the Jew is victorious over the other peoples of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity and this planet will, as it did thousands of years ago, move through the ether devoid of men.

Eternal Nature inexorably avenges the infringement of her commands.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord

That is a little different than Putin wanting to make the Ukraine a satellite state. Which is exactly what Stalin did. Which is why Hitler is the wrong name to bring up, and Stalin is the correct one.

[Cerebus]

If Obama had been Prez instead of Reagan at the time, the USSR would still be in full swing. Weakest president in the history of this nation.

Putin understands Pres. Obama, and Pres. Obama seems to have no clue on Putin.

I know you guys are spoiling to score points for the Republicans, but lets be realistic. If you want to look to a historic precedent to this, open your history books to the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. Republican President Eisenhower talked a big game about supporting the revolution until the Soviets successfully fired their first ICBM. The press and the Democrats crucified him for encouraging the Hungarians and then abandoning them, but he wasn't going to start WWIII over Hungary.

If that is too long ago: How about 2008 when Republican President Bush had the almost exact same response, tough talk and moderate sanctions, to Putin rolling tank into Georgia (the Republic, not the state). He decided he wasn't going to start WWIII over Georgia.

[Cerebus]

It seems like this is pretty well wrapped up. Putin did what he wanted. The world stood by and watched. Obama gave the slightest of wrist slaps to a few of Putins sidekicks. The only thing it watch is if Putin pushes his military futher into Ukraine.

That is the key sentence there. The EU decided it could not live without Russian gas. If they had decided to eat the economic lumps for the short term, this would be a different game. There is really nothing a US president can do without the EU support here.

If we can get other sanctions cranked down on them, we may be able to starve them long term. They need investment funds, if we can make it so dangerous for money to be there that it stops flowing, they will be in a world of hurt long term. However a gas embargo would have hurt them immediately, and probably destabilized Putin.

Or Poland.

Or Romania.

This is far from "wrapped up."

Poland and Romania are NATO states. That is an entirely different game. I don't think even Putin is going to go directly against NATO. Ukraine could have had that same protection, but they decided against the cost.

I know one thing, Ukraine partially had decided not to join NATO and not develop their own oil resources as not to anger Russia. Well you can some up ethnic Ukrainian sentiment right now as "Fuck Russia."

If they can survive the economic shock of being cut off the Russian gas teat (this is where Obama and Congress can make a difference, offer huge money for them to underwrite the fuel costs to everyday Ukrainians) then the government in place is going to want to become a NATO member and is going to want to develop their resources. If we don't do that, then Putin has enough economic leverage to force them under Russia's control without even rolling in tanks.

A strong, independent Western Ukraine and a Baltic States area that is on guard against Russia is really a long term win for us.

[Cerebus]

State TV says Russia could turn US to 'radioactive ash'

"Russia is the only country in the world realistically capable of turning the United States into radioactive ash," anchor Dmitry Kiselyov said on his weekly news show on state-controlled Rossiya 1 television.

Kiselyov also made great play of Russia's so-called "dead hand" capability to fire nuclear-capable intercontinental missiles automatically in the case of attack.

"Even if people in all our command posts after an enemy atomic attack cannot be contacted, the system will automatically fire our missiles from mines and submarines in the right direction," he added.

[Cerebus]

BTW, I understand the average American has not been keeping up with Western Euro politics since about 1994, but lets remember that the West is still winning here, by a long shot.

Sure it seems Putin has been able to leverage control of the Crimea, hell he still has a play on the rest of the Ukraine if we don't prop them up, but here are the former parts of the Soviet Union under NATO protection now:

Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Albania, and Romania.

You can bet they are all anti Russian as possible right now.

In addition NATO member Turkey controls access to the Black Sea, and while Russia had been wooing them for a decade, they are very angry about this move.

[MeanGreenTexan]

BTW, I understand the average American has not been keeping up with Western Euro politics since about 1994, but lets remember that the West is still winning here, by a long shot.

Sure it seems Putin has been able to leverage control of the Crimea, hell he still has a play on the rest of the Ukraine if we don't prop them up, but here are the former parts of the Soviet Union under NATO protection now:

Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Albania, and Romania.

You can bet they are all anti Russian as possible right now.

In addition NATO member Turkey controls access to the Black Sea, and while Russia had been wooing them for a decade, they are very angry about this move.

So, now, even you sound like Crimea is going to belong to Russia from now on.

I know the people voted (or "voted"?) to join Russia, but I thought all of that was dismissed by NATO before that vote even took place. Is that more empty rhetoric?

[THOR]

North Korea also voted for Kim Jong Un to stay in power...

[Censored by Laurie]

Cerebus. Breaking through pre-conceived, partisan narratives since...well...since like a month ago.

[Cerebus]

Cerebus. Breaking through pre-conceived, partisan narratives since...well...since like a month ago.

This is pretty much the only thread on the forum where I am not trolling.

Or is it...

[Cerebus]

So, now, even you sound like Crimea is going to belong to Russia from now on.

I know the people voted (or "voted"?) to join Russia, but I thought all of that was dismissed by NATO before that vote even took place. Is that more empty rhetoric?

In a perfect world, there is no chance that the vote is considered legitimate. In the world of realpolitik the truth of the matter is that the Crimea was not important enough for anyone to either suffer serious economic pain for or risk WWIII.

The NATO states are a different matter. Either NATO is real or it isn't, if it is, then it has to fight for member territorial integrity. I think it is, it's the redline that leads to WWIII. Putin isn't crazy, he is just playing realpolitik. He won't cross that line.

[Censored by Laurie]

This is pretty much the only thread on the forum where I am not trolling.

Or is it...

[forevereagle]

Crimean voters excited to exercise democracy for the last time.

Remember, this is just satire. Kind of.

[Cerebus]

Just in case anyone doesn't think the Cold War is back, or at the very least Putin would love to star in Cold War 2: Electric Boogaloo:

Russia 'planned Wall Street bear raid'

Now this is where we enter the territory of a geopolitical thriller. Mr Paulson:

"Here I'm not going to name the senior person, but I was meeting with someone… This person told me that the Chinese had received a message from the Russians which was, 'Hey let's join together and sell Fannie and Freddie securities on the market.' The Chinese weren't going to do that but again, it just, it just drove home to me how vulnerable I felt until we had put Fannie and Freddie into conservatorship [the rescue plan for them, that was eventually put in place]."

For me this is pretty jaw-dropping stuff - the Chinese told Hank Paulson that the Russians were suggesting a joint pact with China to drive down the price of the debt of Fannie and Freddie, and maximize the turmoil on Wall Street - presumably with a view to maximizing the cost of the rescue for Washington and further damaging its financial health.

[UNT90]

In a perfect world, there is no chance that the vote is considered legitimate. In the world of realpolitik the truth of the matter is that the Crimea was not important enough for anyone to either suffer serious economic pain for or risk WWIII.

The NATO states are a different matter. Either NATO is real or it isn't, if it is, then it has to fight for member territorial integrity. I think it is, it's the redline that leads to WWIII. Putin isn't crazy, he is just playing realpolitik. He won't cross that line.

Why do you think he won't cross that line? Not even sanctions that matter for invading a sovereign nation? No resistance from the World that matters in his eyes?

Do you think he respects the US? Do you think he respects the current US leaders? Do you think HE thinks anything will be done if he takes what he wants?

You reported the Russian news talking about turning America into dust. Propaganda, yes. Do you think he strikes this tone with us if he doesn't think there is a value to it?

When do you suggest that we actually DO something? Poland? Romania?

And what do we do? More sanctions?

Russia has the military to roll through and take everything you listed as a former Soviet state. You say Putin is borderline crazy, then in the next breath say he wouldn't dare attack a NATO member?

Which is it?

[Cerebus]

I just spent 30 minutes writing a reply and then accidentally deleted it. I am going to go lay down and think of England.

I might have enough will to live to rewrite it later tonight. Maybe.

[Cerebus]

Sorry for the hiatus, I've not been feeling well, and my medication has this side effect:

I'll try to get back on the ball this afternoon.

[Rudy]

Maybe someone could foward that Gif to Putin and freak him out?

I'm off to play a little Call of Duty MW 2 and 3. Suck on that Putin.

[FirefightnRick]

Most importantly though, Barry got his bracket filled out properly and has shared it with us, and Michelle was able to take the girls on yet another all expense paid gazzilion dollar vacation, this time to China.

Rick

[CaribbeanGreen]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[forevereagle]

Most importantly though, Barry got his bracket filled out properly and has shared it with us, and Michelle was able to take the girls on yet another all expense paid gazzilion dollar vacation, this time to China.

Rick