Kiev Burning

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Ah, the "I knew someone who died so how dare you question me" indignant post that answers none of the points I just made.

As far as my service, people who actually know me.know a little of what I've done. I damn sure would never flaunt it on a message board in a stupid Internet argument, but you go right ahead.and throw it out there, my friend.

And actually, I was wrong. I'm sure you would support whatever war we went into as long as a democrat was president, cause that's the way you roll.

Care to bring it back to the issue?

no .... ..

You are so wrong on everything... Desert Storm under Bush I (GOP) made perfect sense even at the time .. Invading Iraq with Bush II (who somehow avoided Nam unlike Kerry and Gore but was willing to send others into a stupid war) that was a terrible mistake (thought so then). WWII was no choice but I wasn't alive in 1941. Nam started ok but most actions after Bay of Tompkin was a mistake (LBJ). should not have expanded it... [ it a was a war like a bad poker hand... we would expand it (up the ante) and then they would too ... and that kept going on..] Reagan was right when he bombed Kadafi and did not invade..... I could care less which party was in power .. a good decision is a good decision. --- All you want to do is argue... with everyone... on everything. However now I do not want the party in power now that started this stupid debt climb while claiming to be conservative (lying) especially with their T-party types wanting more crazy tax cuts and not willing to cut out their meaningless programs . [ look at all the crazy earmarks they funded .. Santorium was the king of that ]

Edited March 2, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Cerebus]

Quick notes, no links to late:

* Kerry calls this a brazen act of military aggression, a 19th century act in the 21st century, very serious consequences, all options are on the table.

* Hague (UK ForSec) calls this an invasion and an unacceptable act, he is flying out to Kiev today to recognize the govt and put himself in harms way.

* The Ukrainian govt is calling this an act of war, has called up reservist units.

* Ukrainian military is on war footing, this has caused the Russians to not move around the country unimpeded as much, but has led to more direct confrontation between Russian/Ukrainian troops.

* Ukrainian naval troops are armed and at the walls of their base, surrounded by Russian black sea troopers.

* Ukrainian marines are also surrounded in their base, and consider themselves to be under a military siege.

A quick note to SE-66. Every American enjoyed incredible economic benefits from the fact there is huge demand for it as the de facto reserve currency. This didn't happen by accident or divine will, and it can all change. American military might led directly to the Bretton Woods system, and since Nixon took us off the gold standard, only American military might and the worlds willingness to trust in it, had kept it that way.

Why do you think China is taking the USD we pay them, converting it to RMB and then giving it away free or at very low cost to African, Asian and South American countries? Because they are trying to undermine the USD and want to build trust in the RMB. Russia would love the ruble to become the currency of trade throughout eastern euro.

I am not saying we have to go to war, but not reacting strongly to outright provocations to this is exactly the sort of thing that undermines confidence in the US and the USD. There is a reason Ukraine is calling on us for help, there is a reason Poland and Lithuania contacted the UN and the US with concerns about their sovereignty today. We are the world leader of the west, if we don't act like it, we will lose the role.

[greenminer]

This is one of my favorite threads ever. Sincerely.

[GreenBat]

JUST IN: Sr. Obama admin. officials tell ABC News that Russian forces are in complete operational control of Crimea, Ukraine; 6,000+ airborne, naval forces.

[UNT90]

Quick notes, no links to late:

* Kerry calls this a brazen act of military aggression, a 19th century act in the 21st century, very serious consequences, all options are on the table.

* Hague (UK ForSec) calls this an invasion and an unacceptable act, he is flying out to Kiev today to recognize the govt and put himself in harms way.

* The Ukrainian govt is calling this an act of war, has called up reservist units.

* Ukrainian military is on war footing, this has caused the Russians to not move around the country unimpeded as much, but has led to more direct confrontation between Russian/Ukrainian troops.

* Ukrainian naval troops are armed and at the walls of their base, surrounded by Russian black sea troopers.

* Ukrainian marines are also surrounded in their base, and consider themselves to be under a military siege.

A quick note to SE-66. Every American enjoyed incredible economic benefits from the fact there is huge demand for it as the de facto reserve currency. This didn't happen by accident or divine will, and it can all change. American military might led directly to the Bretton Woods system, and since Nixon took us off the gold standard, only American military might and the worlds willingness to trust in it, had kept it that way.

Why do you think China is taking the USD we pay them, converting it to RMB and then giving it away free or at very low cost to African, Asian and South American countries? Because they are trying to undermine the USD and want to build trust in the RMB. Russia would love the ruble to become the currency of trade throughout eastern euro.

I am not saying we have to go to war, but not reacting strongly to outright provocations to this is exactly the sort of thing that undermines confidence in the US and the USD. There is a reason Ukraine is calling on us for help, there is a reason Poland and Lithuania contacted the UN and the US with concerns about their sovereignty today. We are the world leader of the west, if we don't act like it, we will lose the role.

I think Poland and Lithuania should be very concerned for their own sovereignty. This is a message to all former members of the USSR that upsetting the Russian apple cart will lead to invasion.

Sadly, Putin doesn't fear the USA at all. But then again, why would or should he?

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

The real problems will occur if they try to expand control to the rest of Ukraine... We may not like their grabbing control of Crimea but they at least have a somewhat legit. claim on it (historically and makeup of the people there). It is almost an island as well thus sort of remote from the rest of Ukraine. Notice a lot of locals are waving Russian flags... instead of resisting. Complicating it all is Ukraine owns an insane amount of nukes which once was owned by the USSR.

Just my opinion .. but Russia did not start this situation in Kiev... the locals did ... They are just taking advantage of the situation... I doubt Poland and Baltic states have anything to worry about... local support to rejoin Russia doesn't exist there.

Edited March 2, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[UNT90]

The real problems will occur if they try to expand control to the rest of Ukraine... We may not like their grabbing control of Crimea but they at least have a somewhat legit. claim on it (historically and makeup of the people there). It is almost an island as well thus sort of remote from the rest of Ukraine. Notice a lot of locals are waving Russian flags... instead of resisting. Complicating it all is Ukraine owns an insane amount of nukes which once was owned by the USSR.

Just my opinion .. but Russia did not start this situation in Kiev... the locals did ... They are just taking advantage of the situation... I doubt Poland and Baltic states have anything to worry about... local support to rejoin Russia doesn't exist there.

Wouldn't this be akin to Mexico claiming New Mecico and Arizona because of a the high amount of Hispanic population and Mexico previously controlling the region? Edited March 3, 2014 by UNT90

[UNTFan23]

Wouldn't this be akin to Mexico claiming New Mecico and Arizona because of a the high amount of Hispanic population and Mexico previously controlling the region?

Part of New Mexico was actually part of the Republic of Texas and so Texas should get first claim before Mexico.

[All About UNT]

I think Poland and Lithuania should be very concerned for their own sovereignty. This is a message to all former members of the USSR that upsetting the Russian apple cart will lead to invasion.

Sadly, Putin doesn't fear the USA at all. But then again, why would or should he?

except that Poland was never part of the USSR. oh....and both Poland and Lithuania are part of NATO so there is that too.

So what do irrendentist claims by Russia in Crimea have to do with the United States? I guess I missed the part where your request to better posture our US military within the region had any expertise behind it.

As far as Syria is concerned.... do you even know which side is in the right? Would that be the Tyrannical Minority Brutal Dictator Assad? Or the Rebels that are made up of 40% Jihadists who fight not only Assad but other more secular rebel groups (FSA)?

So while Obama shouldn't have set a deadline to take ANY ACTION period....he realized that it is stupid to pick sides here since you can't tell which side would be in the right and what endgame exists when that conflict is all said and done. But no....you would think he needs to go in guns blazing Team America style.

Love ya Mike but quit reading chainmails and listening to the likes of Rush.

[Cerebus]

Complicating it all is Ukraine owns an insane amount of nukes which once was owned by the USSR.

Are you even reading this thread?! We have gone over this several times. Ukraine does not have nukes, they did, then the US/UK/Russia signed an agreement with them to give up their nuclear weapons. In exchange, they all agreed to respect their territorial integrity, an signed agreement that Russia just broke.

Just my opinion .. but Russia did not start this situation in Kiev... the locals did ...

Yes. They started it by assembling and asking their elected officials to use their constitutional power to impeach the president, which they did. I'm glad you and Putin are brave enough to stand together in the face of such democracy.

I doubt Poland and Baltic states have anything to worry about...

Russia deploys 3500 troops and heavy equipment on Baltic coast in Kaliningrad Oblat near Polish and Lithuanian borders.

Poland mobilises tanks to its border

Obama promises to protect Poland against Russian invasion

Ukraine crisis stokes Baltic nerves over Russia

local support to rejoin Russia doesn't exist there.

It doesn't exist in the majority of the Ukraine either. Russian doesn't seem to care. Or maybe Putin is crazy.

"Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany told Mr. Obama by telephone on Sunday that after speaking with Mr. Putin she was not sure he was in touch with reality, people briefed on the call said. “In another world,” she said.

[Green92]

There's photographic evidence Putin is insane. Cracked did a funny list on ways Putin has become a Bond villain. Just to add a little humor to a tense situation.

[Cerebus]

except that Poland was never part of the USSR. oh....and both Poland and Lithuania are part of NATO so there is that too.

See above links. These countries are frightened enough to have to go to the US/UN and seek reassurances.

So while Obama shouldn't have set a deadline to take ANY ACTION period....he realized that it is stupid to pick sides here since you can't tell which side would be in the right and what endgame exists when that conflict is all said and done.

Actually Obama is smart enough to already have picked a side, with Ukraine, calling for the expulsion of Russian forces from the Crimea. The US is behind the G8 summit being scuttled, is behind the tough talk of kicking Russia permanently out of the G8, has already suspended planned military training and exchange programs, and with the UK is speaking to EU nation states about strong trade sanctions against Russia.

[Cerebus]

For those of you saying Poland and the other former members of the CCCP/Warsaw Pact have nothing to worry about:

Poland requests more NATO consultations over Russia

In calling the meeting, Poland, a neighbor of Ukraine, invoked a NATO rule allowing any ally to consult with the others if it feels its security, territorial integrity or independence are under threat, the so-called Article 4.

"The developments in and around Ukraine are seen to constitute a threat to neighboring Allied countries and having direct and serious implications for the security and stability of the Euro-Atlantic area," the alliance said in a statement.

[Cerebus]

Baltic Fleet holds exercises in framework of surprise inspection

More than 3,500 servicemen of the Russian Baltic Fleet are taking part in the tactical exercise of coast guard troops on a test-site in the Kaliningrad region on Russia's Baltic coast

[Cerebus]

Why do you think China is taking the USD we pay them, converting it to RMB and then giving it away free or at very low cost to African, Asian and South American countries? Because they are trying to undermine the USD and want to build trust in the RMB.

Zimbabwe adopts Chinese yuan as legal currency

"It is Zimbabwe’s Look East Policy, which has forced this, and nothing else," he said.

President Robert Mugabe has sought to boost economic relations with Asia after his relations with the West came under strain over his policy of seizing white-owned farms.

Chinese investors have over the past two decades entered diamond mining, construction and retail sectors in the south-east African country.

[Cerebus]

Russia launches 'propaganda' war over Ukraine

The unspecific but threatening reports seemed principally aimed at stirring fears.

In an embarrassing blooper on Sunday, Channel One illustrated a story on thousands of Ukrainians seeking shelter in Russia -- as Russian officials have claimed -- with footage of cars queuing to cross into Poland.

The Channel One news item clearly shows the name of the border post as Shehyni on Ukraine's western border with Poland, as the news reader says that "more and more Ukrainians are arriving in southern regions of Russia."

[Cerebus]

Some quick articles to read, as I have things to do:

Merkel tells Putin Russia has broken international law in Ukraine

Kerry threatens sanctions if Russia doesn't withdraw from Ukraine

NATO says Russian action threatens peace in Europe

Russian troops break into Sevastopol Navy base

[All About UNT]

See above links. These countries are frightened enough to have to go to the US/UN and seek reassurances.

Actually Obama is smart enough to already have picked a side, with Ukraine, calling for the expulsion of Russian forces from the Crimea. The US is behind the G8 summit being scuttled, is behind the tough talk of kicking Russia permanently out of the G8, has already suspended planned military training and exchange programs, and with the UK is speaking to EU nation states about strong trade sanctions against Russia.

I was referring to the Syrian situation

[H-towngreen]

Obama threatening to "isolate" Russia. I don't see the international community doing anything to stop whats going on. Maybe more "lines in the sand" like in Syria. Putin is making Obama look like his bitch.

[UNT90]

except that Poland was never part of the USSR. oh....and both Poland and Lithuania are part of NATO so there is that too.

So what do irrendentist claims by Russia in Crimea have to do with the United States? I guess I missed the part where your request to better posture our US military within the region had any expertise behind it.

As far as Syria is concerned.... do you even know which side is in the right? Would that be the Tyrannical Minority Brutal Dictator Assad? Or the Rebels that are made up of 40% Jihadists who fight not only Assad but other more secular rebel groups (FSA)?

So while Obama shouldn't have set a deadline to take ANY ACTION period....he realized that it is stupid to pick sides here since you can't tell which side would be in the right and what endgame exists when that conflict is all said and done. But no....you would think he needs to go in guns blazing Team America style.

Love ya Mike but quit reading chainmails and listening to the likes of Rush.

Did you read my post?

It's not about going in guns blazing. It's about making the Russians THINK that we MIGHT do something so that they will measure their response accordingly.

Because of the Syrian proclamation, and the Russian's role in the "settlement", they know that this particular US President will not act.

And we agree. My point was Pres. Obama should have NEVER drawn a line in the sand in Syria. But he unfortunately did. And then did nothing once the line was crossed. That sends a message.

It is what it is, at this point.

Do you really think Putin gives two craps about NATO? Do you think Poland and Lithuania are just crying wolf?

Putin feels he has Pres. Obama's number, which is someone who is all talk and no action. Whether he is right or wrong doesn't matter, it makes for a very dangerous situation for all his neighbors.

We all know that when it comes down to it, NATO really means USA. So if Putin doesn't respect the USA, he won't respect NATO.

As far as "the right side" in Syria, Pres. Obama stated that military action would occur if WMDs were used. This could mean peacekeeping forces. But again, he did nothing. No, I don't think we should have sent troops into Syria. That isn't even close to the point. The point is that Pres. Obama clearly stated that if A happened, B would follow. It was a really dumb thing to say, but once you say it, you better back it up, or else any bulky on the block is gonna know that there is nothing behind your bluster. Putin 100% has Pres. Obama's number.

I don't listen to Limbaugh and never have. Also far too busy for chain emails, whatever the hell that is.

Edited March 3, 2014 by UNT90

[Christopher Walker]

For the visual learners out there.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/02/27/world/europe/ukraine-divisions-crimea.html

The part about oil and gas exports from Russia to the rest of Europe is particularly interesting...

[Cerebus]

No links, this is off BBC reports:

Russia may be taking steps to back off situation:

* The military exercises in Russia, that Putin was personally overseeing, have been cancelled and troops were sent to their home bases.

* A deadline ultimatum to surrender the naval and marine bases in Crimea was passed, and then denied ever been given.

Still two things make this a pretty dangerous situation. One, the Crimean bases are still surrounded by Russian troops, and there are reports of both sides having fired warning shots. We are just one bad decision by an NCO, which are considered to be of poor quality in most east euro armies and downright awful in the Russian, from having a shooting war.

Two, Ukraine and Poland have developed a special friendship over the last decade is so. There are reports that Poland is considering sending troops into Ukraine for "training exercises." This would not only infuriate the Russians, but would put NATO govt troops right into the middle of a possible shooting war, at which point NATO would have to get involved.

Let's not forget that while we talk about this in geopolitical form, there are actual human beings on the ground. Here is a picture of one of the barricaded Ukrainian soldiers being visited by his daughter at the gates of his base:

[FirefightnRick]

Did you hear that scream yesterday? That was irony biting John Kerry in the ass as his plane touched down in the Ukrain.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/03/03/Tough-Talking-John-Kerry-Now-Fighting-Russia-Romney-Rocky-IV-Style

Rick

[FirefightnRick]

Did you hear that scream yesterday? That was irony biting John Kerry in the ass as his plane touched down in the Ukrain.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/03/03/Tough-Talking-John-Kerry-Now-Fighting-Russia-Romney-Rocky-IV-Style

Rick

...or maybe it was Karma? One of the two?

Rick

[DeepGreen]

Interesting. Watch the videos.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/01/remember-obama-mocking-romney-over-russia-concerns-the-1980s-are-now-calling-to-ask-for-their-foreign-policy-back/