trilli vs. benford

THOR · February 12, 2014

so who is the worst bball coach at north texas???

i don't remember much of the trilli ball except that they ran a lot...sort of like the 90 ft. of heat that the stephens tried to do...and failed miserably...

career record:

trilli: 20-87

benford: 23-32

record certainly speaks of trilli being the worst, but i don't remember if he looked lost...confused...scheduled naia teams for victory inflation, etc...

Travis · February 12, 2014

I think Trilli was worse. He had talent and did even less than Benford has.

CMJ · February 12, 2014

However, Trilli inherited a team that had been right around .500 for years (unlike Benford who came into a solid foundation) that had just moved into a new league where practically every road swing was a thousand miles (one way). Our OOC scheduling was insane, at least for the first couple of years. He was entering a tougher situation than Benford was.

I still think Trilli was worse though.

Edited February 12, 2014 by CMJ

GangGreen · February 12, 2014

The first three seasons of the Trilli had an OOC schedule of:

97-98:

@ Iowa

@ Alabama

Texas

@ NC State

@Oklahoma St.

@ UAB

@ TCU

@ UALR

@Oklahoma

@ Georgia Tech

98-99:

@Texas A&M

Texas Tech

@TCU

@Iowa St.

Princeton

@Tulsa

Wyoming

@ LA Tech

@Maryland

@Arkansas

99-00:

LA Tech

@ Oklahoma St.

Texas A&M

@Texas Tech

UL Lafayette

Indiana St.

Buffalo

@Baylor

Tulsa

@TCU

@Wyoming

Got a little better in year 4, but still brutal:

00-01:

@Tulsa

@Texas A&M

Oklahoma St.

@ Missouri St.

A&M-CC

@Arkansas

@Oklahoma

@Alabama

A&M-Kingsville

Baylor

I don't think any NT team could have fared well with those type of schedules, but Captain Butt-Cut sucked it in conference play as well. I would have to say he is still the worst.

Censored by Laurie · February 12, 2014

The first three seasons of the Trilli had an OOC schedule of:

97-98:

@ Iowa

@ Alabama

Texas

@ NC State

@Oklahoma St.

@ UAB

@ TCU

@ UALR

@Oklahoma

@ Georgia Tech

98-99:

@Texas A&M

Texas Tech

@TCU

@Iowa St.

Princeton

@Tulsa

Wyoming

@ LA Tech

@Maryland

@Arkansas

99-00:

LA Tech

@ Oklahoma St.

Texas A&M

@Texas Tech

UL Lafayette

Indiana St.

Buffalo

@Baylor

Tulsa

@TCU

@Wyoming

Got a little better in year 4, but still brutal:

00-01:

@Tulsa

@Texas A&M

Oklahoma St.

@ Missouri St.

A&M-CC

@Arkansas

@Oklahoma

@Alabama

A&M-Kingsville

Baylor

I don't think any NT team could have fared well with those type of schedules, but Captain Butt-Cut sucked it in conference play as well. I would have to say he is still the worst.

I hate to ask, but since I'm not sure where you found this info...do you happen to have the results of these games as well? I know we got run by most (all?) big name teams, but I am curious to see how these teams fared against those who we might view as equal (i.e. UALR, Wyoming, Buffalo) and lesser (i.e. the A&M satellites)

GangGreen · February 12, 2014

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ntex/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/2013_Fact_And_Record_Book.pdf

No problem. I hope the link works. If not it is on MGS under fact and records book.

THOR · February 12, 2014

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ntex/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/2013_Fact_And_Record_Book.pdf

No problem. I hope the link works. If not it is on MGS under fact and records book.

lot of info there...nice find...didn't know a record book like that existed

Greendylan · February 12, 2014

Last year we were expected to finish with an RPI of somewhere around 25-50 (maybe 75 at worst). Our final RPI was 245. In my time following North Texas I can't recall experiencing such a gulf between expectation and performance in any sport. There were injuries, yes, but our NBA draft pick never missed significant time.

Proportionally, this would be the football equivalent of a number 9 preseason ranking and then finishing 90th. The fact that we examined the situation and decided that this performance warranted another year makes me cynically consider that basketball just may not be that important to the decision-makers at our university.

Zeke · February 12, 2014

http://statsheet.com/mcb/coaches/vic-trilli/career_record

Interesting to look at some of this stuff. Trilli was worse than Benford for sure.

THOR · February 12, 2014

http://statsheet.com/mcb/coaches/compare?add=tony-benford&c1=vic-trilli

trilli had 34 BLOWOUT LOSSES....GOOD GOLLY...

benford, only 5...

Edited February 12, 2014 by THOR

MeanGreenHoops · February 12, 2014

Anyone who says Benford is worse than Trilli must not have watched the Trilli years.

TIgreen01 · February 12, 2014

Neither are good head coaches. It's pretty hard to compare records for reasons already mentioned above (ie: Trilli's teams ALWAYS had their confidence blown 5-7 games into the season as they played nothing but P5 schools in OOC; meanwhile Benford just played the single easiest OOC schedule ever assembled---ok, maybe a slight stretch).

I propose ranking them on totally arbitrary factors that may or may not be related to basketball. It's the only fair way!

Green Seats vs Jumbo Tron: Advantage Trilli

Public speaker savant vs Skips the post game presser: Advantage Benford

Hair! vs closet full of suits: Advantage Trilli

90 feet of NO defense vs Andrew's 2-3 zone: Advantage Benford

74 point loss to Maryland vs Lost to Div3 Ala-Huntsville: Advantage Trilli

Final Tally: Trilli: 3 - Benford 2

So there you have it. Trilli was clearly worse than Benford!

GrandGreen · February 12, 2014

The things you have to remember about Trilli are that he did not inherit the team that Benford did and played a much more difficult schedule in his first couple of years. He played the most difficult oc schedule in the nation with a very young team. NT cancelled all games with old Southland teams and scheduled no non-division 1 teams and seldom played any OC home games. I think what Trilli did to the team he inherited was as bad as anything any coach has ever done at NT. He booted everybody out but a couple of players after they played as hard as any team for him in the first year.

Trilli unlike Benford had been a successful coach at a lower level. It was Trilli's fault, but he apparently bought in to the Helwig idea of magically transforming the team to an elite one by playing only the best. Despite what many seem to think, there wasn't a lot of talent on those early Trilli's teams. Chris Davis who was injured during his early career was an exceptional player, but there was no one close to him other than Erskin; who at 6'4 played the 4.

After Trilli's start; he almost literally couldn't give scholarships away and even with a greatly weakened schedule; there was no way he could have ever been successful. Trilli was a better offensive coach and Benford much better on the defensive end, but debating who was the worse is fruitless. Both should have been gone much earlier and I hope Benford is not allowed to waste more years that NT could use to build a program.

Edited February 13, 2014 by GrandGreen

Rudy · February 13, 2014

Better question, if the two were on the same staff, who would be the head coach and who the assistant?

Cooley · February 13, 2014

The things you have to remember about Trilli are that he did not inherit the team that Benford did and played a much more difficult schedule in his first couple of years. He played the most difficult oc schedule in the nation with a very young team. NT cancelled all games with old Southland teams and scheduled no non-division 1 teams and seldom played any OC home games. I think what Trilli did to the team he inherited was as bad as anything any coach has ever done at NT. He booted everybody out but a couple of players after they played as hard as any team for him in the first year.

Trilli unlike Benford had been a successful coach at a lower level. It was Trilli's fault, but he apparently bought in to the Helwig idea of magically transforming the team to an elite one by playing only the best. Despite what many seem to think, there wasn't a lot of talent on those early Trilli's teams. Chris Davis who was injured during his early career was an exceptional player, but there was no one close to him other than Erskin; who at 6'4 played the 4.

After Trilli's start; he almost literally couldn't give scholarships away and even with a greatly weakened schedule; there was no way he could have ever been successful. Trilli was a better offensive coach and Benford much better on the defensive end, but debating who was the worse is fruitless. Both should have been gone much earlier and I hope Benford is not allowed to waste more years that NT could use to build a program.

Grand, I have to respectfully disagree with you regarding the talent he inherited and what he recruited. Now, many of his guys didn't make it to Denton, but I think he was the best recruiter I think we have had since I've followed the program. To help recruit these guys, he had to sell them on the schedule. If you remember, he even promised recruits that they would be playing in CUSA before their senior year. His recruiting did tail off the last year or two. Didn't list any names but I will be happy to to help refresh your memory.

GrandGreen · February 13, 2014

Grand, I have to respectfully disagree with you regarding the talent he inherited and what he recruited. Now, many of his guys didn't make it to Denton, but I think he was the best recruiter I think we have had since I've followed the program. To help recruit these guys, he had to sell them on the schedule. If you remember, he even promised recruits that they would be playing in CUSA before their senior year. His recruiting did tail off the last year or two. Didn't list any names but I will be happy to to help refresh your memory.

Never said Trilli wasn't a good recruiter and being he jettisoned most the players he inherited; he apparently didn't think much of the players that were here. Trilli was a salesman, and seldom let the truth hamper him. His first class included about 13 players, but other than Davis and his cousin Tennell; no one was that highly recruited. Tennell had off court issues, so not really sure how sought after he was. As you probably remember his HS team was winless even though he was the state highest scorer. Don't count the ones like Jamel Brown who never qualified. Erskin was a tweener and not heavily recruited, Gilbert was a cast away from TCU, the Austrian transfer never contributed much and soon left, Wes Allen was a borderline prospect.

That being said, I don't disagree that Trilli could recruit and probably was as good of recruiter that NT has had since Robbins. Surely, you agree that Trilli quickly lost that ability because at the end his recruiting classes were awful. Once a program is in a downward spiral; it is very hard to recruit without a change. Frankly, I have been surprised at the modest success Benford has had after his debate.

I think JJ was underrated as a recruiter because he never got the higher rated players until the end of his NT realm. JJ did generally get players who could contribute and worked well together.

GangGreen · February 13, 2014

Speaking of Wes Allen, one of scariest sports moments I've ever seen was watching him get clobbered under the basket, go into convulsions and be driven away from the Pit in an ambulance.

Anyone else remember that?

Cooley · February 13, 2014

Never said Trilli wasn't a good recruiter and being he jettisoned most the players he inherited; he apparently didn't think much of the players that were here. Trilli was a salesman, and seldom let the truth hamper him. His first class included about 13 players, but other than Davis and his cousin Tennell; no one was that highly recruited. Tennell had off court issues, so not really sure how sought after he was. As you probably remember his HS team was winless even though he was the state highest scorer. Don't count the ones like Jamel Brown who never qualified. Erskin was a tweener and not heavily recruited, Gilbert was a cast away from TCU, the Austrian transfer never contributed much and soon left, Wes Allen was a borderline prospect.

That being said, I don't disagree that Trilli could recruit and probably was as good of recruiter that NT has had since Robbins. Surely, you agree that Trilli quickly lost that ability because at the end his recruiting classes were awful. Once a program is in a downward spiral; it is very hard to recruit without a change. Frankly, I have been surprised at the modest success Benford has had after his debate.

I think JJ was underrated as a recruiter because he never got the higher rated players until the end of his NT realm. JJ did generally get players who could contribute and worked well together.

Grand, you have followed UNT as long as most, and are very knowledgeable having attended most games (men and women) I can't question you at all. I would, however, clarify a couple of small points and I'll leave it at that. Trilli's big class of 12 or 13 was his 2nd year here. We can agree to disagree but I thought his actual 2nd class was better than anyone in Texas. In addition to Chris Davis and Dexter Tennell, he signed Deginald Erskin, Jamal Brown, Sam Funchess, Brandon Gilbert, Kenneth Mangrum and a few others. I know he didn't quality but Jamal Brown would have been the best point guard since Weasel Johnson. He was a big time player out of Dallas Skyline. Deginald Erskin, if you remember, left here and went to Texas; where he played a key role in their NCAA run. Brandon Gilbert (Asst HC At S. Grand Prairie) was a Juco 1st team All-Conference. One publication had him as POY) Anthony Jones was a very good player out of Port Arthur.

Not 100% sure but he did inherit Sean Riley (NBA prospect) and Chris Smith (All-Conference). He did run off Robert Washington (6-5 G Dallas Carter) Ed Harvey & Poo Davis (Louisiana) I think it was more a question of style than their inability to play. Robert Washington was a favorite of mine having been one of the top kids out of Dallas Carter; where he lead them to the State Semi's along with a starting PG at UT (Anthony Goode)

He signed the very next year Chris Jackson, Jason Miller and Shawn Mason. Granted Jackson and Mason didn't make it to Denton but they were highly recruited. Jackson ended up at New Mexico (or NM St) and was all-league. Mason was one of the top kids in New Mexico. Miller, as you recall, was our best post guy and transferred to OSU. The man could recruit. He was also the ace recruiter on UT's staff prior to coming here.

Maybe it was the tough schedule but I give the man credit for taking on the best, recruiting the best and trying to change the UNT culture at its most difficult time. I always appreciate guys for not playing a "don't fire the coach" schedule. We also can thank him for getting rid of those, as he would say, " UT orange seats" in the Pit)

On another topic:

Don't look now but Benford has passed JJ as the better coach! LSU goes into College Station and loses to A&M last night where Benford's Mean Green took the Aggies apart. JJ is 6-5 in conference and are not the same team away from Baton Rouge. (with superior talent)

Edited February 13, 2014 by Cooley

Censored by Laurie · February 13, 2014

Grand, you have followed UNT as long as most, and are very knowledgeable having attended most games (men and women) I can't question you at all. I would, however, clarify a couple of small points and I'll leave it at that. Trilli's big class of 12 or 13 was his 2nd year here. We can agree to disagree but I thought his actual 2nd class was better than anyone in Texas. In addition to Chris Davis and Dexter Tennell, he signed Deginald Erskin, Jamal Brown, Sam Funchess, Brandon Gilbert, Kenneth Mangrum and a few others. I know he didn't quality but Jamal Brown would have been the best point guard since Weasel Jones. He was a big time player out of Dallas Skyline. Deginald Erskin, if you remember, left here and went to Texas; where he played a key role in their NCAA run. Brandon Gilbert (Asst HC At S. Grand Prairie) was a Juco 1st team All-Conference. One publication had him as POY) Anthony Jones was a very good player out of Port Arthur.

Not 100% sure but he did inherit Sean Riley (NBA prospect) and Chris Smith (All-Conference). He did run off Robert Washington (6-5 G Dallas Carter) Ed Harvey & Poo Davis (Louisiana) I think it was more a question of style than their inability to play. Robert Washington was a favorite of mine having been one of the top kids out of Dallas Carter; where he lead them to the State Semi's along with a starting PG at UT (Anthony Goode)

He signed the very next year Chris Jackson, Jason Miller and Shawn Mason. Granted Jackson and Mason didn't it make to Denton but they were highly recruited. Jackson ended up at New Mexico (or NM St) and was all-league. Mason was one of the top kids in New Mexico. Miller, as you recall, was our best post guy and transferred to OSU. The man could recruit. He was also the ace recruiter on UT's staff prior to coming here.

Maybe it was the tough schedule but I give the man credit for taking on the best, recruiting the best and trying to change the UNT culture at its most difficult time. I always appreciate guys for not playing a "don't fire the coach" schedule. We also can thank him for getting rid of those, as he would say, " UT orange seats" in the Pit)

On another topic:

Don't look now but Benford has passed JJ as the better coach! LSU goes into College Station and loses to A&M last night where Benford's Mean Green took the Aggies apart. JJ is 6-5 in conference and are not the same team away from Baton Rouge. (with superior talent)

Not to get into another pissing match, but would you not consider part of being a "good recruiter" being able to identify talent that will also actually make it to campus?

and...I do hope your last line was typed with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

untjim1995 · February 13, 2014

Trilli was very Todd Dodge-like...He was a great figure head and could really make you believe we were on the cusp of building something great. But he couldn't outcoach your below-average Denton YMCA coach during games. The schedule was murdererous, but he actually wanted that schedule because he truly believed that we were following the UT recipe under Penders, where they would play any big name team anytime, anywhere in his first few years in Austin, which led them to elevating their program upwardly rather quickly. So, for that, I never really blamed him. He wanted the program to be able to compete. We beat UALR, Buffalo, and A&M in his time here, but we just got crushed by almost everyone else who had a pulse. The P5 losses were completely understandable--even the Maryland beatdown was comparable to Dodge's opening beatdown at a top 5 OU team--but the Big West games were just brutal, too, as we never even competed with most of those schools, especially on the road. Trilli was an achiever, outside of coaching, in that he could talk his way into anything--recruiting, fundraising, and making others feel like we were about to turn the corner. He deserved to be fired after Year 3, but we had no funds (apparently) to fire him with a couple of years on the contract. Just liek Todd Dodge.

Benford is more like Dickey to me. He came in here, with the hope of improving on the team he inherited, which had talent, but his gameplan didn't really fit the talent here. Granted, the talent differential between Simon's leftovers and JJ's leftovers was gigantic, but just in terms of taking over a talented team, we really fell back--or in Benford's case, we just fell down into the Grand Canyon from a helicopter. But he has only had two years here, his contract makes him almost unfireable by typical UNT standards, so he will get at least one more year and probably two more years to get it going. It was midway thru Year 4 that Dickey got the ultimatum from RV and he turned it around, leading to the SBC run that got him an extension. Problem for Benford is that CUSA hoops, even in its current state, is still much harder to win in than the start-up SBC was in football. If Benford starts calling us MFers, we will know how this thing will end.

Just like the debate about who was better, Dickey or Dodge, for the program, this argument really gets solved in the same easy fashion: Neither was the right fit for football, just as neither of the basketball coaches was or has been right for this program. Johnny Jones is gonna be our Hayden Fry, almost guaranteed. We will talk about his greatness as he takes LSU to the Tournament and wins the SEC every once in a while, just like Fry did at Iowa. And we will follow JJ up with spares that will only enhance JJs reputation in Denton for decades to come. Its how the cycle works, unfortuantely...unless the university finally does something different than what its track record has been on failing head coaches with years remaining on their contracts.

Cooley · February 13, 2014

Not to get into another pissing match, but would you not consider part of being a "good recruiter" being able to identify talent that will also actually make it to campus?

and...I do hope your last line was typed with tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Cooley · February 13, 2014

Cooley · February 13, 2014

Yep! Why should the SAT get in the way of a great class?

MeanGreenEngineer · February 13, 2014

It was midway thru Year 4 that Dickey got the ultimatum from RV and he turned it around, leading to the SBC run that got him an extension.

Dickey was fired and then the regents over turned the decision. Why do you think Dickey and RV never got along after that?

UNTFan23 · February 13, 2014

Yep! Why should the SAT get in the way of a great class?

I don't care if we recruit the second coming of Michael Jordan to NT, if you don't qualify academically and don't play one second for NT, I don't see how you can say you recruited a great player. All you really recruited was potential. Remember they are a student first and an athlete second.

Win in the classroom, then win on the court/field.