John Odoh

KRAM1 · January 23, 2014

I have to chuckle every time you call out others for degenerating a thread on this board, when you've been responsible for doing it to a good number of threads yourself.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

oldguystudent · January 23, 2014

And he has sex with girls!!

Brb. Going to learn to play basketball.

oldguystudent · January 23, 2014

I don't see how there can be any reduction in vitriol on the basketball board anytime in the near future.
Serious question, was this what the football board was like during the dodge years?

Dodge has been gone for three years. A couple months ago, I linked to an old Dodge thread from 2009. Well, that led to its resurrection. It quickly got so bad, three years after the fact, that Harry locked it by day's end.

BillySee58 · January 23, 2014

I agree with CBL but I wouldn't mind a civilized rebuttal, and subsequent discussion, by Cooley. Players have skills in high school that lead them to be successful and get D1 scholarships in these particular cases. They also have weaknesses in their games. Their college coach and the player work on cultivating these skills as well as making the weaknesses non-liabilities.

Maybe a player doesn't grow new found abilities that he never had in high school, but he can learn to become a college basketball player and not just a talented player who was good in high school. John Odoh was a good shot blocker and rebounder in JUCO.

This conversation started because I wondered if Benford could develop those raw skills into consistency on a D1 level, because I've seen players much more developed that he has inherited either regress or not progress enough if at all. We wouldn't have asked Odoh to do anything different than what he did in junior college. Protect the paint, rebound, and block shots. We would not have tried to develop him into an outside shooter or even much of a mid-range game. But the coaches would've had to develop him into a player who could translate his skills that he already had into being a successful D1 rebounder, rim protector, and shot blocker.

Censored by Laurie · January 23, 2014

I agree with CBL but I wouldn't mind a civilized rebuttal

Perhaps I should've been more civil, but to read something as I interpret as an unnecessary shot at and in someway belittling JJ's work here...a year and a half into this train-wreck that has totally de-railed 11 years of program building...somehow keeping a civil tongue becomes difficult.

KRAM1 · January 23, 2014

Perhaps I should've been more civil, but to read something as I interpret as an unnecessary shot at and in someway belittling JJ's work here...a year and a half into this train-wreck that has totally de-railed 11 years of program building...somehow keeping a civil tongue becomes difficult.

Understand and agree that JJ was building a decent program at UNT prior to his departure for LSU. But, let's not let your current disdain for Coach Benford get in the way of reality. JJ was at UNT for 11 years...in those 11 years he had six winning seasons, one 1st place finish in the Sunbelt and was 4th in the Sunbelt West division his last two years. In 2011-12 he was 18-14 (not bad, but a 4th place finish in the SB west division with TM on the roster.

This in no way is meant to belittle what JJ did or was building at UNT. Like I have said...I wish that he had not left for LSU, but the revisionist thinking that JJ was taking UNT to the mountain top in basketball is just not supported by history. UNT was a solid program under JJ, but not a top tier team even in the Sunbelt on a consistent basis. To state that fact is not belittling JJ in any way. The record is what it is. Would I take that record now...ABSOLUTELY. I think any fan of UNT basketball would. Is Coach Benford the answer? Who the heck knows? He's in year two...Johnny was not having the greatest of seasons in year two either, but things started to improve after year two as JJ got his system fully implemented and started to see his recruits play the type of game he wanted to play at UNT. Lots of fans were talking at the time that JJ, while looking for that LSU job, was a "good coach", but just couldn't get UNT over the top and may not be the guy who could. If you were around then you would definitely recall those comments from some of our basketball gurus.

So, heap praises on JJ all you want, the guy deserves them, but let's not let the disdain for our current coach by some completely reinvent history. The 2011-12 record was 8-8 against the Sunbelt, 6-2 at home and 2-6 on the road. Games included such power house basketball programs as Henderson State, Grambling State, Texas Southern, Sam Houston State, Jackson State, Texas State and Oklahoma Panhandle State. Hardly creating a team that scared anyone...except maybe Texas Tech (OT win was the GREATEST!).

So, all you "experts" can call me out as a JJ hater, but that is simply not the case. JJ deserves all the credit he can get and he did enough to get him his life's dream job at LSU. So, congrats to him and well done. But, when I look up at the rafters at the Super Pit, I don't see many championship banners hanging. If folks are going to claim that JJ was "basketball Jesus" at UNT it would be nice if they just stuck to reality and not revisionist history. That's all.

Now...this should be fun......

.

ntmeangreen11 · January 23, 2014

There are few people I would trust on these boards. Cooley is right there with NT03 (usually), myself (but not in the recruiting front) and a few others that I have learned more about after conversations in messages.

Really though?

CMJ · January 23, 2014

KRAM, I'd really only quibble in that you said NT wasn't one of the top level programs in the Belt. If only regular season is your measuring stick, perhaps not. But JJ always had those teams primed for March. He was as good as anyone I've seen on the Mid Major level about getting his teams playing their best ball at the end of the season.

Starting with the 2007 tournament run, I believe he was 15-4 in the SBC tournament.

Kinda like Harper now at WKU. He hasn't had the best regular season mark since he's taken over. But he's had 2 teams cut down the nets.

Edited January 23, 2014 by CMJ

Army of Dad · January 23, 2014

Again, year two of JJs tenure was still recovering from a disaster head coaching hire. Benford inherited a MUCH better situation than JJ did and should have MUCH better results than at the same point in time of their UNT careers.

He doesn't, and god help us all he won't be here much longer. I miss us being relevant in basketball, I miss how electric the pit could be during home games. I do not miss being able to hear myself echo off the other side of the pit, didn't have that the last couple of seasons with JJ.

Green P1 · January 23, 2014

JJ built a house. When he left some new idiot moved in and went on and on about how great the house was before burning the thing all the way to the ground.

People can argue about how nice the house actually was... But don't act like it needed to be demolished and rebuilt from the slab up.

I'd love to have RV as a landlord.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Green P1

BillySee58 · January 23, 2014

KRAM, I'd really only quibble in that you said NT wasn't one of the top level programs in the Belt. If only regular season is your measuring stick, perhaps not. But JJ always had those teams primed for March. He was as good as anyone I've seen on the Mid Major level about getting his teams playing their best ball at the end of the season.

Starting with the 2007 tournament run, I believe he was 15-4 in the SBC tournament.

Kinda like Harper now at WKU. He hasn't had the best regular season mark since he's taken over. But he's had 2 teams cut down the nets.

This. Plus that's the most important thing, especially in a traditional 1-big league

Yeah he wasn't basketball Jesus, but he had just netted us essentially a top-25 recruiting class if you count Tony Mitchell. Not to mention Jordan Williams and 14 point/game scorer freshman Chris Jones were going to be added back to a team that returned all 5 starters from a Sun Belt conference championship game appearance. Really hard to see us not doing better had we had continuity but we'll never truly know.

Maybe we go 12-20 still and Chris Jones and Tony Mitchell have that sophomore slump naturally. I think that'd be far from what actually would've happened but that's just opinion. I didn't follow the JJ era as close as a lot of you guys did, but it really looked like the team he left was going to be his best.

BillySee58 · January 23, 2014

JJ built a house. When he left some new idiot moved in, went on and on about how great the house was before burning the thing all the way to the ground.
People can argue about how nice the house actually was... But don't act like it needed to be demolished and rebuilt from the slab up.
I'd love to have RV as a landlord.

Read the last sentence of the article for lolz.

http://bit.ly/1ibjQ6q

Edited January 23, 2014 by BillySee58

forevereagle · January 23, 2014

In 2011-12 he was 18-14 (not bad, but a 4th place finish in the SB west division with TM on the roster.

In 2012-13, Benford was 12-20 with a 9th place finish in the SBC with TM on the roster. Also, lest we forget, JJ had that 18-14 team in the conference tournament championship game.

Mean Green 93-98 · January 23, 2014

Read the last sentence of the article for lolz.
http://bit.ly/1ibjQ6q

Just one more example of why we need to quit paying attention to compliments dished out by opposing coaches. They compliment us because they're supposed to.

Cooley · January 23, 2014

I used numbers to actually provide some sort of empirical evidence and objective evidence for my statements...college numbers, of course...since we we're discussing their college careers and considering the list of kids who could drop 40 in a high school game and then never sniff a college basketball floor is massive...but let's not let that obscure the fact that my opinion is more formed from not just having watched live all but maybe a dozen home games from 01-07, but also from the first-hand experience of having played and scrimmaged with and against many of these players. Perhaps I was able to see certain things from the basketball floor that you couldn't see from your seat.
But if you want specifics, here's a few...
- I saw Hop learn how to use his body, even developing some effective post moves, especially as his athleticism continued to decline late in his career due to his foot issues.
- I saw Rogers slow down and learn how to run a team, rather than just being a change-of-pace guard...he went from a 15 minute a night sub to a starter and leader who I swear played 40 minutes a night by conference play his senior year.

- If you didn't see a significant evolution in Calvin's game...I really don't know what to say

- I saw Simpson, in only his two seasons here, go from a pure energy athlete who got his buckets on nothing but lobs and put-backs, to one who developed a consistent baby-hook and some semblance of a post game

- I saw Q go from a timid and soft kid with terrible foot-work and range that you might measure in inches rather than feet develop into one of the best post players of the JJ era...one who understood how to use his body, read the ball better as a rebounder and could knock down 12-15 foot shots.
And let me be clear about something...I've never said JJ was great at developing talent. He's tried projects like Howerton and Knox and missed...and he certainly never got the best out of players like Ty Thomas and Ron Harris...but your initial contention was that JJ didn't develop talent. That's just not right. You're either saying that JJ essentially rolled out high school all-star teams for 11 seasons...or that you feel that some of these players would've turned out significantly better with different coaching. Either way, it's insulting and disparaging towards what JJ did here...and if the last season and a half has taught us anything, its that swipes like that should probably stop.

No one insulted and/or disparaged JJ. Of course, you have that down pretty well. My opinion remains the same. With the talent these kid had prior to coming to UNT and JJ's so called development, these guys (or a number of them) should be on someone's roster in the NBA. There's was no appreciable improvement in their games other than the normal gained experience from being an upper classman and body growth. Yes, JJ did just roll the ball out there and let them play many times. I've haven't bashed Benford nearly as much here as many and certainly can't bash JJ. He was/is a good recruiter and players seem to like to play for him. No more, no less

As for hoops, I'm certainly not in my prime anymore but I've actually played more competitive games (and damn good) than I have witnessed in the stands. I do think that helps me evaluate talent where I don't have to rely heavily on box score stats, magazine write ups and video's. I can't begin to tell you how often stats are misleading. Heck, it may even land Derek Thompson in the UNT HOF.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Cooley

UNTFan23 · January 23, 2014

In 2012-13, Benford was 12-20 with a 9th place finish in the SBC with TM on the roster. Also, lest we forget, JJ had that 18-14 team in the conference tournament championship game.

And the team that made it to the 2012 SBC conference tournament final was without its two star freshman (Jones and Williams).

Censored by Laurie · January 23, 2014

No one insulted and/or disparaged JJ. Of course, you have that down pretty well. My opinion remains the same. With the talent these kid had prior to coming to UNT and JJ's so called development, these guys (or a number of them) should be on someone's roster in the NBA. There's was no appreciable improvement in their games other than the normal gained experience from being an upper classman and body growth. Yes, JJ did just roll the ball out there and let them play many times. I've haven't bashed Benford nearly as much here as many and certainly can't bash JJ. He was/is a good recruiter and players seem to like to play for him. No more, no less

As for hoops, I'm certainly not in my prime anymore but I've actually played more competitive games (and damn good) than I have witnessed in the stands. I do think that helps me evaluate talent where I don't have to rely heavily on box score stats, magazine write ups and video's. I can't begin to tell you how often stats are misleading. Heck, it may even land Derek Thompson in the UNT HOF.

Really? Who? Who was the potential NBA-caliber player who was done a dis-service by JJ's lack of development?

Hop? Had JJ groomed him to be a point guard rather than a 2...and if he didn't have the foot issues, maybe.

Calvin? decent size for a two, but he lacked lateral movement and quickness...he carved out a hell of a career in Europe, though.

Sturns? even if his head was on straight, he lacked the athleticism and size for a two and the handle (and head) for a point

Shawnson? probably the closest thing to NBA-caliber player, but he made Sturns look like a well-ground, stable individual. Shawnson killed his own NBA career when he walked out of work outs with the Spurs (I believe)

Tristan? 6'5" 170 doesn't make too many NBA rosters...if I recall he was doing very well in the D-League, but no one really gave him an NBA look b/c he was too thin.

Am I forgetting someone?

At least we can find some common ground on DT and how he'll likely undeservedly end up in as a HOFer.

Green P1 · January 23, 2014

And the team that made it to the 2012 SBC conference tournament final was without its two star freshman (Jones and Williams).

That sticking point is a toughie... Back then it was "How could JJ and his staff let this happen?" Now it would be "How can you hold Benny accountable for the actions of kids?"

emmitt01 · January 23, 2014

I absolutely love when people refer to JJ's accomplishments as, essentially, "average" and then chastise others for revisionist history. The same fan base, and in many cases the same fans, who want to give Mac immense credit for rebuilding from what Todd Dodge left then turns around and conveniently forgets that what JJ did was accomplished after Trilli.

To say that he didn't "take us to the mountain top" is laughable. Not because he did get us there but because it is completely and totally ignorant of what North Texas' basketball history consists of. Prior to JJ (and since) North Texas had ONE NCAA tournament bid. For those scoring at home stop counting at the first number. In his "average" tenure all he did was triple that number and take us to two more conference finals games. He took us to a level where the attendance over Christmas break resembled a Tony Benford (or Vic Trilli) senior night/fan appreciation night/band night all rolled into one.

We may not have been at the plateau of the mountain like a Duke or UNC but in terms of NT basketball history he took us from the cave below the mountain to at least climbing it. That the same people who want to disparage JJ then turn around and defend a guy who has taken us not only off of the mountain but has placed us at the bottom just waiting for the avalanche to bury us is downright ludicrous. It would be funny if it weren't coming from the clown section. As it is, it's just the status quo.

Cooley · January 24, 2014

Really? Who? Who was the potential NBA-caliber player who was done a dis-service by JJ's lack of development?
Hop? Had JJ groomed him to be a point guard rather than a 2...and if he didn't have the foot issues, maybe.
Calvin? decent size for a two, but he lacked lateral movement and quickness...he carved out a hell of a career in Europe, though.

Sturns? even if his head was on straight, he lacked the athleticism and size for a two and the handle (and head) for a point

Shawnson? probably the closest thing to NBA-caliber player, but he made Sturns look like a well-ground, stable individual. Shawnson killed his own NBA career when he walked out of work outs with the Spurs (I believe)
Tristan? 6'5" 170 doesn't make too many NBA rosters...if I recall he was doing very well in the D-League, but no one really gave him an NBA look b/c he was too thin.

Am I forgetting someone?
At least we can find some common ground on DT and how he'll likely undeservedly end up in as a HOFer.