John Odoh

[Cooley]

Have now seen LSU a few games now and Odoh is solidly buried on the bench. Things won't improve for him next year when 7-0 Elbert Robinson (Lakeview Centennial) joins the team. I know he committed to JJ instead of UNT but I hate when kids continue to make bonehead decisions. I guess it was the right thing for Benford to do to release him but I still feel he is better than what we have at center.

[Andrew]

Have now seen LSU a few games now and Odoh is solidly buried on the bench. Things won't improve for him next year when 7-0 Elbert Robinson (Lakeview Centennial) joins the team. I know he committed to JJ instead of UNT but I hate when kids continue to make bonehead decisions. I guess it was the right thing for Benford to do to release him but I still feel he is better than what we have at center.

Which one Colman or Gaines?

[BillySee58]

Which one Colman or Gaines?

*Coleman. That was for you UNTFan23. I can't stand that either. Maybe it's just us.

As for Odoh, he was an extremely raw big man who barely knew any English. I just can't imagine Benford developing him had he been given the chance. I'd rather not turn this into another hate-on-Benford thread but no player has really progressed under him, and some have notably regressed, as discussed on here.

Edited January 22, 2014 by BillySee58

[Andrew]

ColEman gets changed to Colman on my iPad

[Cooley]

We didn't have Gaines or Coleman when he signed with us. We also didn't know what we were getting in Benford. As a project at Hill Junior College, you don't go to a top SEC school to get better. You get better by playing. You also don't get much better when you are already a junior. Don't remember many players getting better under JJ, who was a recruiter.

[Censored by Laurie]

Don't remember many players getting better under JJ, who was a recruiter.

Let me help.

Leonard Hopkins

Jerome Rogers

Calvin Watson

Jeffery Simpson

Quincy Williams

Kedrick Hogans

Tristan Thompson

Michael Sturns (much as I can't stand him)

Alzee Williams

and hell...Tyler Hall.

[meangreenacct]

Let me help.

Leonard Hopkins

Jerome Rogers

Calvin Watson

Jeffery Simpson

Quincy Williams

Kedrick Hogans

Tristan Thompson

Michael Sturns (much as I can't stand him)

Alzee Williams

and hell...Tyler Hall.

+100

[Censored by Laurie]

And since we're on the topic, how many players ever regressed under JJ? Give me an example of when you saw a JJ player's career stat go down the way Chris Jones's has?

Fr. - 14.1ppg on 44% shooting, 4.7rpg, 4.3apg

So. - 9.2ppg on 39% shooting, 3.6rpg, 4.6apg

Jr. - 8.1ppg on 40% shooting, 3.9rpg, 3.8apg

[emmitt01]

And since we're on the topic, how many players ever regressed under JJ? Give me an example of when you saw a JJ player's career stat go down the way Chris Jones's has?

Fr. - 14.1ppg on 44% shooting, 4.7rpg, 4.3apg

So. - 9.2ppg on 39% shooting, 3.6rpg, 4.6apg

Jr. - 8.1ppg on 40% shooting, 3.9rpg, 3.8apg

But, but he doesn't buy in!! And he has sex with girls!!

[Green P1]

That kid had special written all over him until Benny walked into our lives. I really believe that if he and Jordan hadn't screwed themselves with their grades they'd have both transferred and probably been much better off.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Let me help.

Leonard Hopkins

Jerome Rogers

Calvin Watson

Jeffery Simpson

Quincy Williams

Kedrick Hogans

Tristan Thompson

Michael Sturns (much as I can't stand him)

Alzee Williams

and hell...Tyler Hall.

Calvin Watson jumps out here. Decent player coming in. Awesome player his Sr. year.

[Censored by Laurie]

Calvin Watson jumps out here. Decent player coming in. Awesome player his Sr. year.

Tristan's improvement is even more pronounced over the course of his career...PPG (6.4, 11.4, 14.5, 18.0), FG% (42%, 43%, 43%, 46%) 3PtFG% (36%, 37%, 40%, 42%), FT% (80%, 79%, 82%, 83%), assists (21,34,56,59), rebounds (68,74,109,105).

[GrandGreen]

Some players get significantly better with age and it has little to do with who they are playing for. You expect college players to improve and most do to a point. Not sure how anyone not really involved with the program would know how much coaching factors into this development.

I thought both Chris Jones and Jordan Williams were among the best high school players ever signed by NT. If it had not been for Mitchell, they would have been the focus of the fans. Jones has been really hindered by injuries and the type of game that Benford wants out of his pg. Both suffer with Benford's erratic substitutions and would be better with more playing time.

[Censored by Laurie]

I don't disagree that players should continue to improve and develop throughout their careers...they get smarter, stronger, the game slows for them and most are willing to put work in on their own time...but certainly one has to credit coaching as well, especially when you see marked improvements in players. Let's look at some of the guys I mentioned earlier and how they developed.

Calvin Watson...was thrust into the guard rotation early after Scott Roniger quit, averaged 8.3ppg as really the only 2-guard on the roster...finished his senior year at 15.7ppg and probably the greatest single game in my memory.

Kedrick Hogans...injuries certainly dampened his career, but his junior year when he averaged 8.5ppg on a team with 4 guys in double figures was far more than I ever thought we'd be able to get from the guy we signed late in '07.

Alzee Williams...another late signee, averaged 1.9ppg as a freshman, sat out the following season and since has averaged double figures every year since and currently leads the team in scoring. Who could've seen that back in 2010?

Well...maybe one person...

Zee will lead this team in scoring in 2 years

A year late, I suppose.

[Andrew]

I would be interested to see the minutes these player a received. It's obvious if someone averaged 10 minutes their freshmen year and then 38 their senior year their numbers would be better. It does not mean they improved as a player. They only were given more minutes. Tristan is the one I was thinking of because he seemed pretty consistent since he started at UNT. That is to say he was a bad player. He was awesome. I just did not see him progress. Only do what he consistently did with more minutes.

Calvin Watson is one of a few that did get better though. Tyler Hall was always that good FYI. The people who played against that old team with Josh White in the rec would know that. Tyler had it but did not play because he was a walk on. He was a pure athlete and was the best dunker in that team.

[Cooley]

Let me help.

Leonard Hopkins

Jerome Rogers

Calvin Watson

Jeffery Simpson

Quincy Williams

Kedrick Hogans

Tristan Thompson

Michael Sturns (much as I can't stand him)

Alzee Williams

and hell...Tyler Hall.

Tristan Thompson and Leonard Hopkins were two of the best High School players in the state Texas. Thompson (All-Stater @ Angleton HS) almost single handedly defeated a much better Dallas SOC team in the state semi's his senior year; with 37 points. He averaged about 28 ppg. Hopkins was the "BEST" sophomore in Texas with Brian Boddicker (Duncanville & UT) before his leg injury his junior and senior season. No way could UNT touch him after his sophomore season in HS. Jerome Rogers was one of the better quick guards in Dallas and won a state championship his senior year @ Dallas Madison. Alzee was a very good playmaking point guard (at 6-2 with very long dreads) at Dallas Carter his Soph & Junior season; before transferring to Dallas Lincoln during his senior year. Paired with Brockeith Payne (UH & Utah St) and Michael Crabtree (Texas Tech) to form one of the better backcourts to come through Dallas in recent history. These guys didn't get better under JJ as they were already good/great players. Michael Sturns was one of the better players in Ft Worth (N. Crowley) and I was pleasantly surprised that we got him. These guys didn't do anything at UNT that they didn't do in HS. Hogan was a key contributor his freshman year. Actually, regressed his senior year, in my opinion. I didn't see the other out of state kids in high school so I can't say that they got better. I do know that Quincy Williams was a very good player out of OK. Again, no improvement under JJ but played to their abilities.

[CMJ]

Tristan Thompson and Leonard Hopkins were two of the best High School players in the state Texas. Thompson (All-Stater @ Angleton HS) almost single handedly defeated a much better Dallas SOC team in the state semi's his senior year; with 37 points. He averaged about 28 ppg. Hopkins was the "BEST" sophomore in Texas with Brian Boddicker (Duncanville & UT) before his leg injury his junior and senior season. No way could UNT touch him after his sophomore season in HS. Jerome Rogers was one of the better quick guards in Dallas and won a state championship his senior year @ Dallas Madison. Alzee was a very good playmaking point guard (at 6-2 with very long dreads) at Dallas Carter his Soph & Junior season; before transferring to Dallas Lincoln during his senior year. Paired with Brockeith Payne (UH & Utah St) and Michael Crabtree (Texas Tech) to form one of the better backcourts to come through Dallas in recent history. These guys didn't get better under JJ as they were already good/great players. Michael Sturns was one of the better players in Ft Worth (N. Crowley) and I was pleasantly surprised that we got him. These guys didn't do anything at UNT that they didn't do in HS. Hogan was a key contributor his freshman year. Actually, regressed his senior year, in my opinion. I didn't see the other out of state kids in high school so I can't say that they got better. I do know that Quincy Williams was a very good player out of OK. Again, no improvement under JJ but played to their abilities.

So kids who improved their stats didn't improve at all. I am sorry, jumping to a higher level of competition does not mean you reference their HS numbers. If some kid averaged 18 a game in college and his first year in the NBA scores about 6 that's expected. If he suddenly scores 18 his 3rd year HE"S IMPROVED.

[Cooley]

So kids who improved their stats didn't improve at all. I am sorry, jumping to a higher level of competition does not mean you reference their HS numbers. If some kid averaged 18 a game in college and his first year in the NBA scores about 6 that's expected. If he suddenly scores 18 his 3rd year HE"S IMPROVED.

???

[BillySee58]

???

He's saying when you reference a player's improvement at one level, you don't use his stats from the previous level to judge his improvement. Player's numbers are naturally going to drop when they go to the next level. It's how they improve from there that judges their progression.

[Censored by Laurie]

Tristan Thompson and Leonard Hopkins were two of the best High School players in the state Texas. Thompson (All-Stater @ Angleton HS) almost single handedly defeated a much better Dallas SOC team in the state semi's his senior year; with 37 points. He averaged about 28 ppg. Hopkins was the "BEST" sophomore in Texas with Brian Boddicker (Duncanville & UT) before his leg injury his junior and senior season. No way could UNT touch him after his sophomore season in HS. Jerome Rogers was one of the better quick guards in Dallas and won a state championship his senior year @ Dallas Madison. Alzee was a very good playmaking point guard (at 6-2 with very long dreads) at Dallas Carter his Soph & Junior season; before transferring to Dallas Lincoln during his senior year. Paired with Brockeith Payne (UH & Utah St) and Michael Crabtree (Texas Tech) to form one of the better backcourts to come through Dallas in recent history. These guys didn't get better under JJ as they were already good/great players. Michael Sturns was one of the better players in Ft Worth (N. Crowley) and I was pleasantly surprised that we got him. These guys didn't do anything at UNT that they didn't do in HS. Hogan was a key contributor his freshman year. Actually, regressed his senior year, in my opinion. I didn't see the other out of state kids in high school so I can't say that they got better. I do know that Quincy Williams was a very good player out of OK. Again, no improvement under JJ but played to their abilities.

This is one of the dumbest posts I've read in the basketball forum this year. And Andrew posts here regularly.

What the hell is your metric for improvement?

Obviously these were good players coming out of high school. They earned division I scholarships.

[BillySee58]

This is one of the dumbest posts I've read in the basketball forum this year. And Andrew posts here regularly.

What the hell is your metric for improvement?

Obviously these were good players coming out of high school. They earned division I scholarships.

"These guys didn't do anything at UNT that they didn't do in HS."

Well yeah. If our guys all dominated in college the way they dominated in high school and produced at the same level then we'd probably average close to 200 points.

[Censored by Laurie]

And...for good measure...Hogans' senior year he played having re-aggrivated the same shoulder injury that cost him a season. I noted the development in his offensive game his junior season...his footwork had improved significantly and he developed, albeit rudementary, the confidence in a few post moves that he certainly did have when he signed.

[KRAM1]

Stop...For the love of God....please stop. When it gets down to ragging on one of the two best and knowledgeable basketball sources we have on this board, it has just gone too far.

For the love of God....just stop!

[BillySee58]

Stop...For the love of God....please stop. When it gets down to ragging on one of the two best and knowledgeable basketball sources we have on this board, it has just gone too far.

For the love of God....just stop!

You're right. Sorry Cooley. Not being sarcastic either, but it's just getting too much especially with the way these last two seasons have gone.

[Cooley]

This is one of the dumbest posts I've read in the basketball forum this year. And Andrew posts here regularly.

What the hell is your metric for improvement?

Obviously these were good players coming out of high school. They earned division I scholarships.

You tell me yours!!!

You didn't see any of these guys until they got to UNT. (Mr. Stat Guy) How did they improve their shooting, rebounding, passing etc. when they already had that exact skill when they got herel? Stop reading box scores so much and go to a damn game! The fact that you have to get personal tells me that you have a very weak argument. JJ has been known as a recruiter for years. If he was good at developing players he would have been gone long time ago.

Again, tell me what skills they improved upon that they didn't already have when they came here? (Don't think they track that in the box scores)