Was this the best NT team ever?

[TIgreen01]

Comparing stat lines is risky business. As good as the '02 and '03 defense were, our offense was designed to simply run the clock out and shortened every game down to fewer possessions--and thus, we surrendered fewer points. They were certainly dominant, and Booger was the best player I've seen with my own eyes wearing the uniform here, but those offenses were awful. You can't put those teams anywhere near the top 5 teams in UNT history...maybe not the the top 10.

The discussion pretty much begins and ends with the Rod Rust, Odus Mitchell, and Hayden Fry teams. Once you've filtered out the best teams that those coaches fielded, then this year's team gets consideration. We had a great year this year, but the talent level just isn't the same.

I will admit, that UTSA loss stings really, really bad. That team was tiny. They had a better than average QB, and a great coach and they kicked our rears with a team full of FCS caliber guys. Win that game and we win conference (no way Marshall beats us on the ice covered Apogee turf). I think for a team to be one of our best ever, they need to at least hold a conference championship trophy.

Edited January 20, 2014 by TIgreen01

[meangreener]

Stop.

Just stop.

We lost that friggin game by 22 POINTS!!

22!!!

This game should never be cited in any argument for being good, much less great.

It just shows how bad and for how long things have been around this football program. A 22 point loss isn't even a freakinn moral victory, much less the lead in statement for why a team should be on a "greatest teams" list.

For the record, I don't think any of Dickey's teams should be on this list. There was never a signature OOC win (Baylor was like beating Indiana at the time) and the conference we played in was beyond bad.

Hey, I agree!

[meangreener]

In about 15 years, he'll be debating with a college kid about the merits of the '13 defense against the 2028 one. It happens to all of us to one degree or another.

What's the Mark Twain quote? Something like - When I was 18 my dad was an idiot...when I was 25 I couldn't believe how much he'd learned in seven years.

Well, I'm 22 so I'm right in the middle. Maybe I'll have an epiphany.

[GrandGreen]

Date Home Team Score Visit Team Record Location Notes A.P. Poll

Sat, 9/3/1988 Texas Tech 24 - 29 (W) North Texas 1-0

Sat, 9/17/1988 North Texas 49 - 21 (W) Arkansas St. 2-0 Denton, TX

Sat, 9/24/1988 Texas 27 - 24 (L) North Texas 2-1

Sat, 10/1/1988 North Texas 51 - 0 (W) Eastern Washington 3-1

Sat, 10/8/1988 North Texas 26 - 23 (W) Louisiana-Monroe 4-1 Denton, TX

Sat, 10/15/1988 North Texas 37 - 0 (W) McNeese State 5-1

Sat, 10/22/1988 Sam Houston State 3 - 24 (W) North Texas 6-1

Sat, 10/29/1988 Stephen F. Austin State 17 - 10 (L) North Texas 6-2

Sat, 11/5/1988 North Texas 17 - 25 (L) Northwestern State (LA) 6-3

Sat, 11/12/1988 Texas State 10 - 30 (W) North Texas 7-3

Sat, 11/19/1988 Rice 17 - 33 (W) North Texas 8-3

Sat, 11/26/1988 Marshall 7 - 0 (L) North Texas 8-4 Huntington, WV Division I-AA 1st Round Playoff Game

This team was special.

Corky always got the team ready for the big games, but not so much for the Southland foes. Losing to SFA, NWS, and Marshall; kind of takes the luster off his play against the SWC.

[CMJ]

Well, I'm 22 so I'm right in the middle. Maybe I'll have an epiphany.

It's more the idea of what the quote is saying than the exact ages. I'm not even sure WHAT the real ages were, but the thought is pretty hilariously true.

Edited January 20, 2014 by CMJ

[UNT90]

The thing yall also forgot to mention.

I'm just glad to see the left coast hasn't total knocked the southerner out of you.

[golfingomez]

what about 2008?

we beat Western Kentucky by 11 that year...

[golfingomez]

what about 2008?

we beat Western Kentucky by 11 that year...

oh...

and we only lost to Arky St. by 5... which was our closest loss...

[ragpicker]

The '69 team by all odds. Just ask Arkansas. We would probably have finished no lower than 3rd that year if we had been in the SWC and that was when the SWC was still one of the stronger conferences. I think the '59 team would have to be ranked pretty high as well even though they lost the Sun Bowl that year. I have always heard they partied a bit too much in Mexico the night before the game.

[ragpicker]

Are we all just not counting a team many of us were not fortunate to see due to our either not being around this area at the time, being too young or not even born and that being the North Texas Mean Green football era of Mean Joe Greene, Cedric Hardman, Steve Ramsey, Chuck Beatty, Ron Shanklin, etc, etc, etc and our football program that produced 3 NFL #1 draft choices over a 4 year period along with a whole host of other NFL draft choices, too?

I know most of these comparisons (including my own) has not counted that superb NCAA college football team at North Texas back in the mid 60's. I would have loved to have seen how close to the top or at the very top UNT's Mean Joe's teams would have finished in the old Southwest Conference.

Dandy Don Meredith commented on an old Monday Night Football broadcast how good that team in Denton had been and that he was glad that even his SMU teams never had to play North Texas.

That is so weird, Plumm, I remember the night Meredith said that as well. See my post.

[Graddean]

For those who did not see Joe Greene when he was at North Texaa, you have no idea what you missed. I have never seen a more dominant defensive college lineman. He was too fast to run from. Ark. Tried trapping him, and then running away. You really missed a treat if you didn't see him then.

[Cooley]

Wow, old history, but none of those teams were close to the talent of the 67-69 teams. Three first round draft choices and a bunch of other drafted.

I know there are not a lot of you around in those days, but Greene, Hardman and crew would have destroyed last year's offense. Shanklan, Hollaway, Ramsey and Parker would have done the same to the defense.

Many lament the 1988 UT game, but NT had a game stolen by a much better Arkansas in that period. They did lose some to lesser teams, but motivated; I don't think any NT team since could play with them.

No disrespect to the alums that came on board in the 80's, 90's and later but I don't know why or how you can weigh in on any "Best of All-Time" discussions. I don't go back as far as Grand and others, but they are the only posters qualified to comment on these subjects.

I'm as happy and proud as any with the past season and HOD win but this team doesn't compare with the team's under Fry in the 70's.

I'm very familiar with the team's and talent GrandGreen mentioned from the late 60's. There is a reason why the majority of the national media still remembers "North Texas State" instead of UNT or North Texas.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Cooley

[pastorgrant]

I was in college at UNT from 2000-2003, so that era is very nostalgic for me.

I'm not sure if 2002 or 2013 is better. And I have no idea about any teams prior to 2000.

One thing I do know is that the program is in much better shape now. As great as the 2001-2004 teams were, I always felt that they were nearish the top of our program's potential at the time. Now it seems like the sky is the limit.

[mccox2]

In all honesty and in an unbiased objective manner, the 2013 team had an excellent chance of being one of the best teams at UNT..... but you have to WIN the WINNABLE games (Ohio, Tulane and UTSA... or at least one of the two in conference play) and WIN the conference title to even be mentioned in the conversation. I am not taking anything away from the 2013 team but if we would have beaten either Tulane or UTSA and won conference then I would without a doubt crown them the best team. It was definitely a stepping stone in the right direction for the program and a season to remember but it was our season to lose. The program is in better shape than it has been since the early 2000 teams and it'll only improve from here. With that being said, I think the best team ever is yet to come and until then I will side with the 2002 conference and bowl winning team who paved the way for the next couple of winning seasons with conference wins and bowl appearances.

[meanJewGreen]

If a 4 loss team is the best team in our history, we have a lonnnggg way to go.

[forevereagle]

We lost that friggin game by 22 POINTS!!

22!!!

Not to split hairs, but it was a 27 point loss.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--- I graduated in '66 but I have to vote '67 or '68... I believe they had nine future NFL players ... including Joe Green, the the future Bronco QB Ramsey, Cedric Hardeman (49ers), and Ron Shanklin (Steelers). Part of the reason for so much talent appeared in Denton was the SWC had barely began to integrate when those guys were signed and lots of talent went to NTSU and WTSU [Mercury Morris and Dwane Thomas] and to Houston which was not yet SWC . They lost barely to Arkansas which I think only lost one game, UT.

Edited January 21, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Mean Green 93-98]

This thread is titled, "Best NT Team Ever," but based on the original post, I think it has more to do with which is the best NT season ever. I have no doubt that those late 60's teams were better than any NT team at least since Fry. There was elite NFL talent on both sides of the ball, something I have never seen at UNT. But if you compare seasons, I don't know . . . a close loss to Arkansas that should have been a win still goes down in the books as a loss. And we were thoroughly destroyed that year (comparable to what Georgia did to us this year) by a pretty average Memphis team. They did end up 8-2, though, so that's still a pretty good winning percentage, with only a couple of the Fry years being better since.

[ragpicker]

The '69 team by all odds. Just ask Arkansas. We would probably have finished no lower than 3rd that year if we had been in the SWC and that was when the SWC was still one of the stronger conferences. I think the '59 team would have to be ranked pretty high as well even though they lost the Sun Bowl that year. I have always heard they partied a bit too much in Mexico the night before the game.

Make that year '68

[ragpicker]

What about the '68 team with Steve Ramsey, Ron Shanklin, Joe Greene, Cedric Hardeman, and Chuck Beatty among others. They were 8-2' Zander robbed at Little Rock by a team that won the Sugar Bowl..

I agree. I saw that game and we were robbed. When we played Clemson a couple of years ago their head coach who was on that Arkansas team, told his Clemson players not to take us lightly because that Arkansas team considered North Texas the second best team {behind Texas} and the best quarterback they played that year. There is another story that they were considering not even scouting us and decided to do so at the last minute. When the scouting coach returned he said they had better get busy because we were quite capable of beating them. I think we really did.

[ragpicker]

For those who did not see Joe Greene when he was at North Texaa, you have no idea what you missed. I have never seen a more dominant defensive college lineman. He was too fast to run from. Ark. Tried trapping him, and then running away. You really missed a treat if you didn't see him then.

He was unbelievable, Gradean. Like you, I would isolate him on many plays and miss whatever else was going on. He was one of finest football players to ever come out of the state of Texas and was arguably the best defensive lineman to ever play for a Texas school. He will always be one of the top defensive tackles in the NFL as well.