Stadium

[Christopher Walker]

This discussion isn't complete until you view this video of what Apogee could look like if expanded to over 90k.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lAytJiCoSs&list=FLt2T7aWKu8_XD4qp6SE7U9A

EDIT: corrected the link

Anyone see this related video??

So, these are current players with an awesome cameo by Coach Wintrich at the end. Funny.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Christopher Walker

[UNT90]

Amazingly, though you qualified your question to include all of the respnses you received, no one actually answered your specific question you asked...so allow me.

10 years. I think the trajectory of this program, the coaches currently in place and the awakening of this fan base will push us toward that goal. But I too have a few qualifiers.

First, we need to abandon the "if you win they will come" mentality because winning alone will not fix the problem. Until we promote this program in a manner that draws in potential fans who are looking for the "window dressing" we won't approach sellouts. When Mark Cuban first took over the Mavs one of the things he did was to make a Mavs game an event. There were blimps that dropped khakis on you, music during every timeout, giveaways if the mavs reached a certain milestone, etc. I know we can't afford to drop khakis but have you ever noticed that the loudest cheers you hear at our basketball games (especially these days) are when everyone wins a free Wendy's frostee? Why? Because it's an added bonus, something to get excited about, other than the on field product. When Silver goes on and on about pageantry (and you all dismiss him) you miss the point. Pageantry makes it feel like an EVENT. The idea that we are going to have to rely on bringing in big names and winning consistently alone is counter-intuitive. It's a long tiresome process and it's just not reasonable...Texas and Nebraska etc are not coming to Denton, they're not.

Pretty safe to say that Mac won't coach here another 10 years, so the next coaching hire is extremely important

[oldguystudent]

Pretty safe to say that Mac won't coach here another 10 years, so the next coaching hire is extremely important

That is absolutely true and utterly terrifying.

[Cougar King]

That would be a dream scenario for UNT and if it happened I have no doubt we could match these other school's stadiums with immediate expansion.

Unfortunately the route right now goes SBC--->CUSA----->AAC----->Big12

Its very hard to jump out of that path. UTSA did so by showing great attendance and jumped from the WAC to CUSA. Fortunately for us TCU/Houston/SMU are down right now and we have to keep it that way. The landscape has settled down somewhat but with change in the BCS there is always a chance something drastic happens when a new system is put into place. Keep winning games, win conference championships, win bowls, and we will get a look if an opening comes up.

We're down right now? I could have sworn we just played in a January bowl game against an SEC team and our true freshman quarterback was named Freshman All-American, also winning our conference's rookie of the year award.

I then watched us beat a ranked UCONN squad on New Years Eve. Then just took on a near Top 25 Cincy team yesterday and plus are on the verge of having another top 50 recruiting class in football. Oh and can't forget a new 40k stadium opening up in August that's actually months ahead of schedule and at this rate, will be completed in June.

If that's us being "down" then I could imagine how things will be when we're "up".

[SilverEagle]

That is absolutely true and utterly terrifying.

Yeah, I agree with that. Especially since it took our administration(s) 35 years of brain fart decisions to finally come back to the type of coach that works best here.

[NorthTexan95]

Anyone see this related video??

So, these are current players with an awesome cameo by Coach Wintrich at the end. Funny.

Profane, stupid, and not very funny at all. Plus, you can't dance to it. I give it a negative 2.

[houstonmeangreen]

1) After 1a season of sellouts/near sellouts or 2) admission to the Big XII.

Neither is going to happen within the next 12 years. We could get lucky in less time but barring a couple of Top 25 finishes, I just don't see it.

Actually, admission to the Big XII is the more likely of the two but that's only if the other Power 5 conferences force the Big 12 to expand. Since the conference is composed of large state universities (except for Baylor and TCU) North Texas and Houston would be distinct possibilities. Admittedly, that is pie-in-the-sky hopes but so are a season of sellouts.

Unless and until Conference USA becomes the top G5 conference, attendance will average no better thabn the middle to upper twentis unless we are having a string of 8-10 win seasons we won't sell out Apogee on a regular basis. Recruitment, promotions, consistent winning, student involvement and competition all have to come together before we can consider expansion.

Don't forget. We still have some hefty bond payments to make on the existing stadium and we'd need an extremely strong reason to add more debt without an excellent reason.

I would say if it is going to be 10-15 yrs before expansion, then this is a big fail...if it is this long before we can have sellouts and need more space, then something is wrong...period...IMO

[PlummMeanGreen]

Heck, all we need is 9K more seats to be have a 40,000 seat Apogee. Find a way and do it ASAP, Smatresk and AD/RV...and THEN...........we can get Coach DMac's close & personal friend and HFC down at UT to tee it up with us in Denton............promise. If we only "ask" others similar to UT and perrenial Top 25's some will say yes to a home and home, too, but like in sales.................you have to ask for it.

Too many empty seats on Game Days will only happen if we keep on hanging onto our not so glorious past tainted with low (or no) goals and absolutely no large group promotions. Our school's population center locale and enrollment is not projected to shrink, folks, and after all.....

..............isn't UH's new stadium going to start out at about 40K? Is UH better than UNT? Is UH that far ahead of UNT that we have to regroup and think small again? Have we forgotten what we all witnessed last Wedneday at the historic Cotton Bowl Stadium or was that all an apparition?

GMG!

_______________________________________________________________________________

"The ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world are the ones who do."

Steve Jobs ________________________________________________________________________________

Edited January 8, 2014 by PlummMeanGreen

[pastorgrant]

Underground tunnel ... it's in the plans!

Actually, it was the wrong link. I corrected the link in my original post. Here is the correct one again for easy reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lAytJiCoSs&list=FLt2T7aWKu8_XD4qp6SE7U9A

It's an idea for expanding Apogee to 90k. It's fun to watch.

I was wondering what Fallout 3 had to do with the stadium

[ragpicker]

Apogee will expand when it is necessary to expand. That could be in two or three years or never. It depends on the success of the team and the support of the fans. We need to continue what we accomplished this year and continue to improve year after year. I personally see an expansion sooner than later.

[PlummMeanGreen]

We're down right now? I could have sworn we just played in a January bowl game against an SEC team and our true freshman quarterback was named Freshman All-American, also winning our conference's rookie of the year award.

I then watched us beat a ranked UCONN squad on New Years Eve. Then just took on a near Top 25 Cincy team yesterday and plus are on the verge of having another top 50 recruiting class in football. Oh and can't forget a new 40k stadium opening up in August that's actually months ahead of schedule and at this rate, will be completed in June.

If that's us being "down" then I could imagine how things will be when we're "up".

Are we supposed to really care?

UH (like TCU) won't play UNT as long as we're in what is going to be a win cycle so why does anyone who professes UH loyalty keep squattin' on our land (or message board)? (Those "very visible" 35,000 Mean Green fans at the historic Cotton Bowl Stadium for a New Years Day bowl game really seems to have gotten under a few Coog's thin skins it seems to me).

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2014/01/uh_fans_whine.php

Judge Roy Hofheinz is turning over in his grave>>> http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2014/01/uh_stuns_uconn.php

UH didn't even have the common decency (a real Texan's basic trait) to schedule North Texas in a return game at your stadium's grand opening so who the hell do you think you are by even coming here? If we are not welcome as the opponent at the debut of UH's new football stadium then what the hell makes you think you are even welcome here at GMG.com? Beat it, dude!

GMG!

Edited January 9, 2014 by PlummMeanGreen

[UNTP1]

Anyone see this related video??

So, these are current players with an awesome cameo by Coach Wintrich at the end. Funny.

Agreed, very funny. Loved the participation of Wintrich and Jub's son was pretty darn funny.

[JesseMartin]

But, I also understand that I'm not the average sports fan. Hell, the Frisco Roughriders have a SWIMMING POOL in the outfield! a freaking SWIMMING POOL! For a baseball game! I don't understand that one bit. Not one bit. But damn if that section wasn't booked for ever Frisco game I ever went to. And those incessant mid-inning spin you head around a bat game, complete with Tony Robbins Jr. ear mounted microphone announcer guy. Unbearable for me, but it packed seats.

The Diamondbacks have one of those out here too.

Back to the main subject: All of these are valid points, but to simplify it there is this. Yes, it will take promotions and effort and more winning (ALL of them...Mac shouldn't have to worry about selling tickets, that's why we pay other people) to increase attendance. How well this is done will be the key in terms of how quickly (if ever) Apogee expands.

Now as to the actual expansion, it's not really about what any of us would like, it's about what's reasonable. If growth stays steady, which we hope it will, we will reach capacity fairly soon. IF (big if) they make the move to expand during the most reasonable period of growth, it will be when we consistently have over 28K in attendance. There may be a couple of sellouts along the way, but packing the stadium for one game will not provide enough impetus, financially or otherwise, for expansion.

The existing bonds don't need to be paid before expansion, but the propensity for additional revenue to pay off additional bonds will be expected prior to actually pursuing them. Once we are in the 28K range (maybe a little more or a little less) then it will be obvious that by the time we are selling at capacity, we will have (or be very close to) a completed expansion project. This is the only rational way to approach it. Will we do it that way? Who knows?

Also, in terms of the home advantage and noise...we are at about 2/3 capacity right now. If we expand at the appropriate time, at the right point in attendance growth (and assuming continued growth during and after construction of the expanded areas) then we will have right around the same proportion of the stadium filled.

[forevereagle]

Back to the main subject: All of these are valid points, but to simplify it there is this. Yes, it will take promotions and effort and more winning (ALL of them...Mac shouldn't have to worry about selling tickets, that's why we pay other people) to increase attendance. How well this is done will be the key in terms of how quickly (if ever) Apogee expands.

I mostly agree with this, but not entirely. Mac should worry about selling tickets as far as selling the games in interviews when he is given the exposure on TV and/or radio. When he has the platform, he should try to get people excited about the games and make them want to come. Outside of this, his only other responsibility in regards to selling tickets is to have the team prepared and winning games.

[MeanGreenTexan]

I mostly agree with this, but not entirely. Mac should worry about selling tickets as far as selling the games in interviews when he is given the exposure on TV and/or radio. When he has the platform, he should try to get people excited about the games and make them want to come. Outside of this, his only other responsibility in regards to selling tickets is to have the team prepared and winning games.

Yep. And I think he's doing a heckuva job on both fronts.

[forevereagle]

Yep. And I think he's doing a heckuva job on both fronts.

Agreed.

[Green Mean]

You mean Dallas. We are talking about Denton. And Dallas folks aren't driving to Denton to attend UNT games, win or lose IMHO.

I disagree. I live in Plano and drive to Denton anytime I can to attend games. I'm sure some will think that and that is fine. Those people exist everywhere. I have Texas friends and they didn't care to go to FW when they were playing TCU this past season. People don't go to Rangers games that live pretty far from Arlington because it's too damn far and can be a beating. Those that will want to make that kind of excuse will make them. We need to give people a reason to come. We had a great season but we better continue to keep it up and be on the upswing. Once that happens things will slowly change. It's a process.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Some on this message board cannot see past their noses when it concerns our athletic's program future and for our particular program that has not always bode well the last 30 or so years looking at all our results . Had we shown more solidarity as an alumnus group during all those decades we could have "demanded" a Dan McCarney kind of hire (and even God forbid off a Fry coaching tree) a long time ago. We rather got caught up in the same ol' hiring modus operendi in Denton which never produced not one North Texas HFC who left Denton above .500.....go freakin' figure.

Some look at new ideas on this board as goofy, dumb-arsed waste of time and just back to more of the "just not the kind of thing we ever do in Denton" kind of thinking, but when we built a 30,850 seat "new stadium" in this new millenium we were still sorta' putting our own selves in our own place with how we felt about even our future; that is, we seemed to think that we will always be a Sun Belt'esque kind of school--nothing more and for sure never a Top 25 ranked kind of football program. Some of the red numbers I will get for this post will (in fact) be from some of that very crowd who thought that way and with some who still do.

For North Texas to expand our stadium another 9K to get it up to 40,000 would make another completely new kind of statement from our school about what we think now about our school moving ahead, but still a few on this board will use their old faithful, trusted yet hardly proven theory of............... "WE MUST FILL APOGEE FIRST THEN JUST THINK ABOUT IT MAKE IT LARGER OUT THERE IN THE SWEET BY & BY which begs this following question........................... How many times did we fill Fouts Field before we had dirt turning ceremonies for Apogee Stadium? HINT: You can count that number of capacity crowds at the 30,500 seat Fouts Field on less than 1 finger--that's how many times. HINT 2: That means we never filled Fouts Field to capacity at that particular seating capacity. So............anymore new theories on when we should expand Apogee?

UH has us beat with new stadium capacity beginning this Fall, but isn't it a new ball game somewhat in Denton? As in North Texas became a new and different kind of DFW area sports animal based on what I call a perfect storm which took place on New Years Day at the historic Cotton Bowl Stadium when most every UNT constituency I can think of showed up en mass? An event which all but shocked some of our (always) small time thinkers who know nothing else but.....small time thinking.

In closing................we don't need think too small too long for Apogee Stadium lest in today's NCAA our school will get left behind (once again). Funny thing with that is I think even those who rarely can see past today might possibly even agree with that.

GMG!

Edited January 9, 2014 by PlummMeanGreen

[UNTFan23]

Some on this message board cannot see past their noses when it concerns our athletic's program future and for our particular program that has not always bode well the last 30 or so years looking at all our results . Had we shown more solidarity as an alumnus group during all those decades we could have "demanded" a Dan McCarney kind of hire (and even God forbid off a Fry coaching tree) a long time ago. We rather got caught up in the same ol' hiring modus operendi in Denton which never produced not one North Texas HFC who left Denton above .500.....go freakin' figure.

Some look at new ideas on this board as goofy, dumb-arsed waste of time and just back to more of the "just not the kind of thing we ever do in Denton" kind of thinking, but when we built a 30,850 seat "new stadium" in this new millenium we were still sorta' putting our own selves in our own place with how we felt about even our future; that is, we will always (at the time) be a Sun Belt School with no upwardy mobile thinking about our program whatsoever. Some of the red numbers I will get for this post will (in fact) be from some of that very crowd.

For North Texas to expand our stadium another 9K to get it up to 40,000 would make another completely new kind of statement from our school about what we think now about our school moving ahead, but still a few on this board will use their old faithful, trusted yet hardly proven theory of............... "WE MUST FILL APOGEE FIRST THEN JUST THINK ABOUT IT MAKE IT LARGER OUT THERE IN THE SWEET BY & BY which begs this following question........................... How many times did we fill Fouts Field before we had dirt turning ceremonies for Apogee Stadium? HINT: You can count that number of capacity crowds at the 30,500 seat Fouts Field on less than 1 finger--that's how many times. HINT 2: That means we never filled Fouts Field to capacity at that particular seating capacity. So............anymore new theories on when we should expand Apogee?

UH has us beat with new stadium capacity beginning this Fall, but North Texas became a new and different kind of DFW area sports animal based on what I call a perfect storm which took place on New Years Day at the historic Cotton Bowl Stadium when most every UNT constituency I can think of showed up en mass. An event which almost shocked some of our (always) small time thinkers who know nothing else but.....small time thinking. In closing................we don't need think too small too long for Apogee Stadium lest in today's NCAA our school will get left behind (once again). Funny thing with that is I think even those who rarely can see past today might possibly even agree with that.

GMG!

Just so I understand, you want to expand the capacity of Apogee stadium? Starting as soon as possible?

In as few words as possible, how do you think our current attendance supports the need to expand our current capacity?

[PlummMeanGreen]

Just so I understand, you want to expand the capacity of Apogee stadium? Starting as soon as possible?

In as few words as possible, how do you think our current attendance supports the need to expand our current capacity?

.

I have no response for you. Figure it out for yourself. You're one of the small time thinkers who constantly lives in the past and has Denton and Denton County in some kind of time warp with populations that never grew. That post was not mean't for your kind to read whatsoever....move on.

[UNTFan23]

.

I have no response for you. Figure it out for yourself. You're one of the small time thinkers who constantly lives in the past and has Denton and Denton County in some kind of time warp with populations that never grew. That post was not mean't for your kind to read whatsoever....move on.

I don't consider myself "small time" -- I think of myself as a realist. We just plain straight up don't need more seating until we start averaging 25k or more per season. I believe we averaged 20k per game for the first time in perhaps ever.

We've only had two games in three years above 25k since Apogee opened. 25k in a 40k stadium isn't even 2/3s full. You would need 27k just to get to the 67% of capacity and we still might not even have people in the new seating and we've only had one game above 27k.

UTEP - 11/9/2013 - 26,119

Houston - 9/10/2011 - 28,075

If you're all for spending money with little to show for ROI then why stop with expanding Apogee? Let's build a new basketball mecca that seats 15k even though you could count the number of times on one hand where there were 7k in the Super Pit since 2001.

Edited January 9, 2014 by UNTFan23

[NTXCoog]

If you're talking only supply and demand, you don't want to expand until you get at least a couple of sell outs a year. You start getting sellouts for the big games, season ticket sales grow so fans don't get shut out of the big games. I think ideally you want to wait until most of the stadium is sold out through season tickets, making up for lost sales from the seats not added by increases in ticket prices, donation requirements, and parking/concession increases. It's tough to get consistent sell outs based on walk ups.

But there are other considerations for expansion besides supply and demand. For example, UH really needed a new stadium due to the state of the old stadium. And since they were building a new stadium, they increased the size slightly since it's cheaper to do it now rather than later. But they didn't increase too much at one time, even if it's cheaper to do so now, because you don't want to make the immediate sell out impossible.

Another reason to expand is to attract other teams to play. Some teams just won't play in a 30k season stadium. Or if they will, they require major concessions like a 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 deal.

Another reason is for possible conference realignment (another reason for UH's new stadium). This is by far the most speculative reason to expand. Probably not a good reason to expand on its own, especially if you never sell out your stadium. But if combined with other reasons to expand, it could be a tipping point.

I don't know how many of these reasons apply to UNT right now. Obviously there's not a need for a whole new stadium so that's out. Supply and demand is not a reason either. So to me it would come down to wanting to attract certain teams or for conference alignment.

[NTXCoog]

Some on this message board cannot see past their noses when it concerns our athletic's program future and for our particular program that has not always bode well the last 30 or so years looking at all our results . Had we shown more solidarity as an alumnus group during all those decades we could have "demanded" a Dan McCarney kind of hire (and even God forbid off a Fry coaching tree) a long time ago. We rather got caught up in the same ol' hiring modus operendi in Denton which never produced not one North Texas HFC who left Denton above .500.....go freakin' figure.

Some look at new ideas on this board as goofy, dumb-arsed waste of time and just back to more of the "just not the kind of thing we ever do in Denton" kind of thinking, but when we built a 30,850 seat "new stadium" in this new millenium we were still sorta' putting our own selves in our own place with how we felt about even our future; that is, we seemed to think that we will always be a Sun Belt'esque kind of school--nothing more and for sure never a Top 25 ranked kind of football program. Some of the red numbers I will get for this post will (in fact) be from some of that very crowd who thought that way and with some who still do.

For North Texas to expand our stadium another 9K to get it up to 40,000 would make another completely new kind of statement from our school about what we think now about our school moving ahead, but still a few on this board will use their old faithful, trusted yet hardly proven theory of............... "WE MUST FILL APOGEE FIRST THEN JUST THINK ABOUT IT MAKE IT LARGER OUT THERE IN THE SWEET BY & BY which begs this following question........................... How many times did we fill Fouts Field before we had dirt turning ceremonies for Apogee Stadium? HINT: You can count that number of capacity crowds at the 30,500 seat Fouts Field on less than 1 finger--that's how many times. HINT 2: That means we never filled Fouts Field to capacity at that particular seating capacity. So............anymore new theories on when we should expand Apogee?

UH has us beat with new stadium capacity beginning this Fall, but isn't it a new ball game somewhat in Denton? As in North Texas became a new and different kind of DFW area sports animal based on what I call a perfect storm which took place on New Years Day at the historic Cotton Bowl Stadium when most every UNT constituency I can think of showed up en mass? An event which all but shocked some of our (always) small time thinkers who know nothing else but.....small time thinking.

In closing................we don't need think too small too long for Apogee Stadium lest in today's NCAA our school will get left behind (once again). Funny thing with that is I think even those who rarely can see past today might possibly even agree with that.

GMG!

Minor note that doesn't negate your arguments, but UH has always beat UNT in stadium capacity (exception 2 temp games at BBVA stadium this season) even if it was by a minor amount. Robertson held over 32k while Apogee holds over 30k. You could probably say UH's new stadium significantly beats UNT's and it would be accurate and could be used for your points.

But I disagree with your arguments for a different reason. Respect is earned more by attendance than stadium size. Rice and UAB have a huge stadiums, but that doesn't get them respect because their attendance is poor and looks worse in the giant stadiums.

As I said in a previous post, selling out a smaller stadium is more important to increasing attendance than increasing stadium capacity. To really increase average attendance consistently, you need to increase season ticket sales. If you want to increase season ticket sales beyond the hardcore who will be there every game to the fan who goes to a couple of games a year, you need that sellout threat for the big games which are going to be the games the occasional attendee goes to. You can't rely on walkups to consistently have a higher attendance. You may get the occasional high attendance name through walkups if you get a name opponent, but you need that season ticket sale to have the high attendance every week.

Edited January 9, 2014 by NTXCoog

[Green Mean]

For us to think about expanding we pretty much have to sell out just about every home game no matter what. If we're averaging under 30,500 per game then how do we justify expansion? If you wanted to build the stadium initially at 40 or 50k then it would have made more sense since it probably would have been cheaper with construction costs rather than expanding 5-10-15 years down the line but at this point selling out every single home game on top of having a wait list is the only way we should even remotely think about stadium expansion.

[houstonmeangreen]

For us to think about expanding we pretty much have to sell out just about every home game no matter what. If we're averaging under 30,500 per game then how do we justify expansion? If you wanted to build the stadium initially at 40 or 50k then it would have made more sense since it probably would have been cheaper with construction costs rather than expanding 5-10-15 years down the line but at this point selling out every single home game on top of having a wait list is the only way we should even remotely think about stadium expansion.

I agree...but when do we start seeing 30K per game....in 3 yrs? 5 yrs? sooner?...if we aren't putting 30K in the seats after 5 yrs something is really wrong...the AD has dropped the ball....this season and the HOD bowl made me realize what could be !