Lower education standards in US colleges?

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---When my daughter graduated at UNT in 2003?, I think she was supposed to take some type of "cultural arts" class.... however she had been in the Midland College Choir for three semesters plus took a photography class at MC and they counted for something. (Business major). I don't remember my son doing anything like that.. (maybe he did, graphics maybe) ... he was a computer science major (2000).

Edited January 8, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[forevereagle]

When did UNT start requiring Music Ed? I have two UNT degrees... Never once set foot in a Music Ed or Art Ed Class.

You had to have some fine arts credit and that is what we chose to cover the requirement.

[JesseMartin]

Yes, there are a few that count towards that. Art Appreciation or Art History I or II, a couple of the music classes (I think Acoustics, Intro to Ed. and Appreciation if I remember the catalog correctly), Theater Intro and some others which now includes World Lit I and II, which used to be part of the 4 semesters of English required but are now just options in this same area. That is, the last time I looked which was a few years back. Even in grad school I kept up with core/catalog changes in case I needed to help anybody with their schedules.

[oldguystudent]

Incidentally, and completely devoid of any consequence for me professionally, the sole reason that I don't have a bachelor's from UNT in addition to my master's is that I refused to pay $700 for a required Texas History course. If I had taken that and the one hour "Professional Development" course that literally teaches you to use a knife and fork, I'd have an additional degree.

[GTWT]

Why balk at taking a Texas History course? If you live in Texas shouldn't you know her history?

[Green Mean]

Why balk at taking a Texas History course? If you live in Texas shouldn't you know her history?

Not sure what it is now but Plano required a full year of Texas History in the 7th grade. Probably one of my favorite subjects I took in grade school.

[oldguystudent]

Why balk at taking a Texas History course? If you live in Texas shouldn't you know her history?

A) Already possess a history degree

B ) Completely irrelevant to the professional skills I was developing

C) $700

D) Truly, I don't care. See A above. I've studied a bit on my own. Don't need to pay UNT for the privilege.

Edited January 8, 2014 by oldguystudent

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Oh! And Fake Lonnie Finch, what courses do you want those finance, economics, & business law classes to replace?

Based on the latest CAS requirements (http://catalog.unt.edu/content.php?catoid=9&navoid=533), I would replace the grab bag, academic garbage you find in Visual and Performing Arts (3 hours), Humanities (3 hours), Social and Behavioral Science (3 hours), Discovery (3 hours), and Capstone (3 hours).

There are 15 hours UNT students are required to take that are worthless. Finance, Economics, and Business Law are important. Throw Accounting in there as well. It's a crime that all students are not required to take Accounting and Finance courses.

It's no wonder the economy is in such a mess today, as well as individuals' personal debt: no one requires anyone to learn it. So, people stumble through life like idiots complaining that companies are ripping them off.

Yes...if you are ignorant in the ways of Finance, Accounting, Economics, and Business Law, you are more than likely to have the wool pulled over your eyes in any given finance situation, including, but not limited to:

-Credit agreements

-Automobile purchases

-Mortgages

-Leasing office space

-Buying any type of risk of finance/risk product, from simple homeowners and auto insurance to any type of health and life insurance policy you can think of.

Let people majoring in garbage degree plans take garbage courses. Why foist them upon everyone in CAS?

I've encouraged both of my nephews to double major: one, a degree they think they like; two, a degree that is actually useful in real life, It's what I did. I have degrees in Literature and Business Management. It was a compromise with my parents, both of whom have business degrees (dad, BBA/mom, Accounting).

Although I hated it at the time, I'm glad they persuaded me to get the Business degree because...no one is going to pay me to read Jack London and Williams Shakespeare all day. And, I'd make zero dollars as a self-employed reader of Literature.

The world is not getting less technical; it's getting more technical. And, it is punitive toward the uneducated and the undereducated. We had the whole economy of this country tank because a generations of idiots didn't understand the mortgages they were signing.

Edited January 10, 2014 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[JesseMartin]

TFLF makes some interesting points in the last one. The use of a double major to provide both enrichment and usefulness is great, but isn't the point of a liberal arts education to be well-rounded? I also agree that the topics listed should be covered, but completely leaving out the cultural/humanities type classes to do so would defeat the purpose of trying to be well-rounded. There are a few other ways I can think of to reorganize the core curriculum in order to maintain the balance while ensuring those other areas are covered. For instance, the math with calculus class covers most of those; also, why in the world was Econ removed from the core? That's one of the most overall useful courses (though it would be even better to include both micro and macro).

The biggest problem is having to fight over the total number of hours required, but beyond that really you have to consider the number of electives (and hours of advanced electives) required. In order to get the maximum effect of what we're discussing and still keep the "well-rounded" aspect that includes cultural enrichment, perhaps they could do away with those areas as TFLF mentions, but then place them in a "recommended electives" area. That seems like it could solve all of these problems at once, or am I missing something?

[KRAM1]

A) Already possess a history degree

B ) Completely irrelevant to the professional skills I was developing

C) $700

D) Truly, I don't care. See A above. I've studied a bit on my own. Don't need to pay UNT for the privilege.

Said the guy that has already posted that as soon as his personal situation is settled is planing a move back to California.

See B above...so were at least 75% of the other courses you took. Should accounting just be moved to trade school status? Doubtful.

I do not recall Texas History being "required" at UNT for either of my UNT degrees although I took a really great Texas History course at UNT under a wonderful professor named Dr. Stephens who was later Mayor of Denton. Great prof, and to this day I recall the final exam he gave in that course.

I do believe that Texas History is required in 7th grade in Texas Public Schools and I am glad it is still required.

Now, there were several courses I was required to take in HS and in college that to this day I feel were no where near necessary...perhaps this is how most feel about certain classes throughout their educational lives.

[oldguystudent]

B ) I only took what I considered one superfluous course since all the undergrad I took at UNT was in direct preparation for the MS program.

The history thing was definitely required because I looked at the BBA requirements out of vanity.

I regret nothing and apologize for even less.

[oldguystudent]

As for the jab about moving back to California, I guess screw me for wanting to return to the place I never wanted to leave to begin with, where MY history is, wherein reside my closest friends and remaining family as opposed to the decade (and counting) of solitude and frequent ostracism I've so enjoyed here.

I reiterate. I regret nothing and apologize for even less.

[FirefightnRick]

Based on the latest CAS requirements (http://catalog.unt.edu/content.php?catoid=9&navoid=533), I would replace the grab bag, academic garbage you find in Visual and Performing Arts (3 hours), Humanities (3 hours), Social and Behavioral Science (3 hours), Discovery (3 hours), and Capstone (3 hours).

There are 15 hours UNT students are required to take that are worthless. Finance, Economics, and Business Law are important. Throw Accounting in there as well. It's a crime that all students are not required to take Accounting and Finance courses.

It's no wonder the economy is in such a mess today, as well as individuals' personal debt: no one requires anyone to learn it. So, people stumble through life like idiots complaining that companies are ripping them off.

Yes...if you are ignorant in the ways of Finance, Accounting, Economics, and Business Law, you are more than likely to have the wool pulled over your eyes in any given finance situation, including, but not limited to:

-Credit agreements

-Automobile purchases

-Mortgages

-Leasing office space

-Buying any type of risk of finance/risk product, from simple homeowners and auto insurance to any type of health and life insurance policy you can think of.

Let people majoring in garbage degree plans take garbage courses. Why foist them upon everyone in CAS?

I've encouraged both of my nephews to double major: one, a degree they think they like; two, a degree that is actually useful in real life, It's what I did. I have degrees in Literature and Business Management. It was a compromise with my parents, both of whom have business degrees (dad, BBA/mom, Accounting).

Although I hated it at the time, I'm glad they persuaded me to get the Business degree because...no one is going to pay me to read Jack London and Williams Shakespeare all day. And, I'd make zero dollars as a self-employed reader of Literature.

The world is not getting less technical; it's getting more technical. And, it is punitive toward the uneducated and the undereducated. We had the whole economy of this country tank because a generations of idiots didn't understand the mortgages they were signing.

Excellent post.

Rick

[oldguystudent]

For the record, I absolutely agree with TFLF. I've been teaching my kid that stuff since she could talk, and have impressed upon her how important it will be for her to study it in college, regardless of major.

[KRAM1]

As for the jab about moving back to California, I guess screw me for wanting to return to the place I never wanted to leave to begin with, where MY history is, wherein reside my closest friends and remaining family as opposed to the decade (and counting) of solitude and frequent ostracism I've so enjoyed here.

I reiterate. I regret nothing and apologize for even less.

Didn't ask for a apology, don't expect one. But, it might point out why you don't care about Texas history. I could give a rat's rear end about California history and having spent quite a bit of time in California over the last few months, I can honestly say that it is probably the last state I would EVER want to live in...bar none. So, I get it...different strokes for different folks...no jab...just fact. You said it...why be sensitive about it...as you say, you meant it. So...no, not screw you....you are doing that to yourself by moving from the great state of Texas. :-)

[GTWT]

Excellent post.

Rick

Yes. Very articulate. His post demonstrates the value of a liberal arts education. [Though, not trying to be picky but it's William Shakespeare, not Williams Shakespeare. Maybe one of those darned literature courses would have been useful.]

[Green Mean]

I love Texas and born and raised here and don't ever plan on leaving (other potentially than buying a vacation home or two in another foreign land) but I could live in any state and be happy and live in just about anywhere in the world and learn to live and be happy. It's what you make of it IMO.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--- Somewhere in a person's college education , students need a course that teaches finance or something close to it .. I teach mathematics of finance and often find that students who even work for financial institutions really don't understand how things really work that well.. The problem with education is that students don't really take things that seriously when they are young and not making time payments or have serious savings accounts.... I can almost assign the grades on that part of the course based on their age... Those making house and car payments and that have saving accounts listen and do well while most of the others just think it is a necessary evil to graduate. The older ones understand it applies to them and many have refinanced or starting making payments different because of what they saw in my class. My best story is a married couple (both in my class) with 26 yrs left to pay on their house that realized what they were seeing and refinanced for 15 yrs and was paying only about $15 more per month... seeing the numbers, amortization tables, and everything else made them $1000's because they walked into my classroom.. Many also learned that paying a little extra in the beginning months of a home loan can be shortening the loan time by 2-3 months instead of the one obvious one. Very little of early payments go to principal and was even more extreme when interest rates were higher.

--- I was luckier than most kids because our family raised cattle, owned some rentals, and family and friends in the small business world, and I was exposed to business and also picked up a lot on law in general. I also insisted my kids get a degree in something that would made them a decent or good living ..( not Bulgarian literature ) .. The sons became engineers, one with a MBA and law degree, and a daughter with a business degree. They listened. They also understand that saving $1000 in expensives is like earning $1500 .. considering taxes etc.

--- Don't underestimate knowing history especially economic history if you learn it right... You learn what has happened what can happen, and are harder to lie to (less gullible). One important fact I learned from UNT history classes** is that all people write/say things from their point of view.. [ this is why I dislike one network... it doesn't even attempt to tell it like it is ( 60's phrase )... only if it favors what they want you to hear ] There is another thing I have learned from traveling abroad is that what we hear here maybe a bit different that what they hear and believe. ... That explains why few Europeans (includes French and Germans which some here trashed) aided us in Iraq.. they did not believe any WMD (nukes) existed there... they were right. Having some foreign students in my classroom at times is interesting as well to hear what they hear or believe..

** public school history classes present a very one-sided sanitized version of history .. I have no problem with that... but colleges should be a bit different and present "events" from other views. Example: Canadians claim the burning of Washington D.C. by the British in 1813 was retaliation for the US burning several Canadian towns earlier after we crossed into Canada.

Edited January 13, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

I'd like to add as a caveat, that it's not that the other courses aren't swell...it's just that at some point in a person's life, they are confronted with the world of finance.

If I don't understand an financial contract I'm signing, it could hurt me and my family later. If I can't tell the difference between a Rembrandt and a Michelangelo, the bank ain't gonna foreclose me.

It's just a matter of preparing people for the 21st Century. Again, unfortunately, the world now is punitive toward the ignorant. Although Hollywood and Pop Culture may scream at you do "do what you want" or "do what feels good to you," if you can't pay the bills or understand what you've signed, you are screwed. And, if you have kids, they are screwed right along with you.

Thanks a lot, Bin Laden.

[Censored by Laurie]

We had the whole economy of this country tank because a generations of idiots didn't understand the mortgages they were signing.

Right? I mean, if those potential home-owners hadn't have been wearing such low-cut tops and tight-fitting skirts those lenders wouldn't have been so tempted to take advantage of them.

Sluts.

[Censored by Laurie]

Based on the latest CAS requirements (http://catalog.unt.edu/content.php?catoid=9&navoid=533), I would replace the grab bag, academic garbage you find in Visual and Performing Arts (3 hours), Humanities (3 hours), Social and Behavioral Science (3 hours), Discovery (3 hours), and Capstone (3 hours).

There are 15 hours UNT students are required to take that are worthless. Finance, Economics, and Business Law are important. Throw Accounting in there as well. It's a crime that all students are not required to take Accounting and Finance courses.

While I think I tend to agree that some sort of finance course should be mandatory, the idea of doing so at the expense of courses that constitute what one would consider a classical education defeats the entire purpose of a four-year institute of higher-learning...to prepare well-rounded, sophisticated and educated individuals...and a large part of that is at least exposing those otherwise not so inclined to literature, music, art, philosophy and language.

I'm all but debt free (a bit more on my new car), am well ahead of the curve on savings and retirement and live well within my means having never taken an accounting, finance or business law course and I never once felt it a University's task to educate me on such things.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Right? I mean, if those potential home-owners hadn't have been wearing such low-cut tops and tight-fitting skirts those lenders wouldn't have been so tempted to take advantage of them.

Sluts.

As is normally the case, you make my case for me. Because they have no financial knowledge, they don't know when they are being taken advantage of.

If we are going to even halfway crawl out of the economic hole we are in, the populace is going to have to be more financially savvy. I'm sorry it has to be that way.

I've got a Literature degree and appreciate it. But, it does me no good in understanding finance. The business degree is what does that for me.

[KRAM1]

The idea that all these homeowners were taken advantage of by the lenders is inane. Some, perhaps so...the vast majority...nope...knew exactly what they were getting into...or did not care to know...all they wanted was that big house. In many cases way way more house then they could afford...and often knew it.

Made too too many loans (not on home by the way) where everything was just peachy and keen while the application and negotiation process was going on, but re-payment time came..."what, you mean you actually want me to pay this back?"

The best and funniest cases when I was a junior lender and having to collect my own loans were the co-signed loans.

ASIDE HERE...never ever...never ever...co-sign a loan for someone unless you are 100% willing to take over the payments as you probably will be called upon to do so.

Had co-signers say..."it's not my loan, I just co-signed so he could get the loan", or the best..."go repo the car, sell it and then we can talk about any difference"...my response...nope, not going to repo...he can have it...that's why I have you. You want to sell the car? Go get it yourself and sell it...you just need to pay". That usually got their attention! ha!

Other classic is the situation in a divorce where one party thinks that they are removed from having to pay a joint loan just because the divorce judge said the other party had to pay! Ha! Nope...not going to work that way...Judge's order does not negate the debt one signed...they just better hope the other party keeps paying...or they need to go to the bank and negotiate a way to get off the loan.

This stuff is too funny, and so many people want to "after the fact" blame the big bad bank! Maybe they should have walked in and just said...hey, big bad bank...no way I am going to let you loan me any money...screw you, I've got the cash!

Oh, the stories I could tell about my young days as a front line lender in the "personal loan" world before I moved on to commercial lending and then to management. I still think those early days were the best and most enjoyable I ever had as a banker...really got to help some folks when they needed the help. But, there were always the stories like the above to keep things lively.

Interesting that today we are already hearing the moans and groans about how much harder it is to get a mortgage loan. My gracious, one now even has to PROVE the income level they note on an application...hey, it's back to my early days of lending...prove and verify that a person actually can afford the loan! It's Deja Vu all over again! :-)

OK...yes, simplified discussion of a very complex situation...best...very best read ever about the whole mortgage crisis thing is Michael lewis' book..."The Big Short". Get it read it! Great stuff.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Though there were some horrible lending deals that banks signed knowing full well they were going to rake a borrower over the coals (think an ARM on a 30yr mortgage), I would say most of the issues were caused because people knowingly or unknowingly bit off more than they could chew.

I wouldn't mind some kind of class about family financial planning and lending being added to part of the core curriculum.

Side note: We refinanced our house recently. After pissing my pants when faced with the amortization schedule (now a law that you must see it before signing a note) on what we drafted up for a 30-yr note (we were going to save something like $250-300/mo! Great deal right? NO!), we backed out and found a 15-yr note that worked for us, for only a slightly higher monthly payment (like $30) than what we were paying before when we were some of the blissful youth who signed a mortgage we shouldn't have.

Moral of the story: If you don't have a 15-yr note, or less, you are insane.

[Green Mean]

Though there were some horrible lending deals that banks signed knowing full well they were going to rake a borrower over the coals (think an ARM on a 30yr mortgage), I would say most of the issues were caused because people knowingly or unknowingly bit off more than they could chew.

I wouldn't mind some kind of class about family financial planning and lending being added to part of the core curriculum.

Side note: We refinanced our house recently. After pissing my pants when faced with the amortization schedule (now a law that you must see it before signing a note) on what we drafted up for a 30-yr note (we were going to save something like $250-300/mo! Great deal right? NO!), we backed out and found a 15-yr note that worked for us, for only a slightly higher monthly payment (like $30) than what we were paying before when we were some of the blissful youth who signed a mortgage we shouldn't have.

Moral of the story: If you don't have a 15-yr note, or less, you are insane.

Agree wholeheartedly.