Lower education standards in US colleges?

[JesseMartin]

http://news.msn.com/in-depth/we-are-creating-walmarts-of-higher-education

So it seems that the plan is to remove core classes to speed up graduation rates and make education cheaper. Hey, I'm all about graduating more students and keeping costs affordable, but the point of having classes outside of your major is to develop more well-rounded and capable citizens. I also don't think everybody "deserves" a degree. Everybody deserves the chance to work hard to obtain one, but that's not the same thing. I don't think any real higher ed institutions should consider this model. You might as well be a collection of vocational schools if that is to be the case.

[KRAM1]

What else is new? Does not surprise me one bit....just an extension of the "everyone gets a ribbon" mentality.

[MDH]

Way too easy to get a degree now. I began my university in Canada and there was a HUGE difference in the quality of education after transferring. I believe I got a good quality education in my major but was underwhelmed in a lot of my other classes.

Edited December 29, 2013 by MDH

[oldguystudent]

To be a wee bit fair, core requirements exploded at my undergrad over about a fifteen year period, to the extent of a de facto required fifth year for every student. The concept of "universal" education got out of control.

One specific example: My freshman year, all university students had to take one full year of either math or a foreign language, regardless of major. My sophomore year, they decided that all university students had to take one full year of math AND a foreign language regardless of major without reducing any other requirements.

I never did understand why a history major had to take molecular biology.

[North Texas Shep]

Core classes need to stay the way they are. Well rounded is the way to go. However, I do not understand why so many degrees require a foreign language. It is great and very beneficial to be bilingual, but to be honest most people do not learn jack in those classes. I know I didn't pay attention one bit.

[UNTflyer]

It shocked me how many of my classmates in the MBA program did not know the difference between "their," "there" and "they're."

[oldguystudent]

It shocked me how many of my classmates in the MBA program did not know the difference between "their," "there" and "they're."

I think they've since implemented some actual standards, but I've had professors flat out admit to me that the MBA program during your time was very thinly veiled open enrollment. They were quite happy to take the tuition money from anyone who had a checkbook, then provide them with plenty of rope to hang themselves.

Even when I took the GMAT ca. 2009, I asked what kind of score I should strive for. 25th percentile was the answer. For those of you watching at home, that doesn't mean you had to score in the top 25%. It means you had to beat the bottom 25%. If you can tie your shoes without falling down and/or count your gonads twice and come up with the same answer both times, you can beat the bottom 25% on the GMAT.

[MDH]

It shocked me how many of my classmates in the MBA program did not know the difference between "their," "there" and "they're."

My grad electives (mostly finance classes) were filled with MBA students so this doesn't surprise me one bit.

[KRAM1]

It shocked me how many of my classmates in the MBA program did not know the difference between "their," "there" and "they're."

This!

[JesseMartin]

A lot of what you guys are talking about really boils down to the fact that so many people only value where the culmination of their education can lead them, and not the education itself. That drives me crazy. If you really get some perspective and realize how fortunate we are to have the opportunities available to us, it's hard to take that education for granted. I was always so worried about wasting my opportunity that I studied really hard, and still remember most of what I learned, even in my non-major classes. I suppose both are valid viewpoints, as long as the intention is to fully take advantage of the opportunity available, be it the education or the results thereof (though the latter does bug me a bit). But what I absolutely cannot stand is the expectation that one can reap the rewards of an education without meriting it via the work that goes into it. At least those who work hard to reap the bigger job and better pay still put in the hours, even if they only focus on retaining their knowledge of a subject through the course of the semester.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--- I have questioned the explosion of concurrent classes in HS... I teach math in a community college and those who teach engineering calculus claim those who had concurrent math classes in HS are rarely as good as those who take it in a traditional college class. I teach trig classes at times and have students that had HS trig and they are usually shocked at the difference and difficulty..

---Back to their, there and they're (different parts of speech) ... So many HS and college classes teach no real English grammar or parts of speech anymore ... they teach literature... If I could change one thing in HS school English, it would be teach sentence diagramming... .they don't know parts of speech and therefore can't write worth a damn and often confusing... I also see that makes a difference in teaching stated problems... those who know how to diagram usually understand or analyze them better... It also drives my wife nuts... She teaches foreign language ... and students don't know parts of speech even in English which makes learning a different language much more difficult.... diagramming teaches that.. she sometimes even takes time to teach some diagramming in English...

---Basic history and science classes should still be in all college programs.... My answer to algebra is the same I would say about learning how to swim... You may go the rest of your life not really needing to know how but what if you are the one that falls into a lake or get a job that that uses/needs algebra ... it is shocking how few understand finance and business formulas ... it can make/save people a lot of money. Ask a married couple I had in class that suddenly discovered that and refinanced their home while in my class... and saved 11 years of payments [ from 26 yrs. to 15 ] and just paid $12 more per month.. They really got their moneys worth by taking it. Several others have told me they were going to check into it or refinance and even students who worked in financial institutions suddenly realized how time payments and amortization tables work.

Edited December 31, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

"Under pressure to turn out more students, more quickly and for less money, and to tie graduates’ skills to workforce needs, higher-education institutions and policy makers have been busy reducing the number of required credits, giving credit for life experience, and cutting some courses, while putting others online."

I have two nephews graduting in May. One has already been accepted to Georgetown, Chicago, and Wisconsin. He wants to work for the government in some sort of foreign services/diplomat job (he's studied Chinese for seven years and has been to China twice already...so, this isn't a whim for this kid). The other is pretty much set on North Texas or Oklahoma State. He will major in biology or, perhaps, a pre-med program. He wants to be a doctor.

I'm proud of them both, but have told them that no matter what their major is, they should take Accounting, Business Law, and Finance classes so that they will be able to function correctly as adults.

[JesseMartin]

---Back to their, there and they're (different parts of speech) ... So many HS and college classes teach no real English grammar or parts of speech anymore ... they teach literature... If I could change one thing in HS school English, it would be teach sentence diagramming... .they don't know parts of speech and therefore can't write worth a damn and often confusing... I also see that makes a difference in teaching stated problems... those who know how to diagram usually understand or analyze them better... It also drives my wife nuts... She teaches foreign language ... and students don't know parts of speech even in English which makes learning a different language much more difficult.... diagramming teaches that.. she sometimes even takes time to teach some diagramming in English...

Last time I checked, UNT required 2 semesters of writing but Lit is now one of the Humanities electives. I wonder if that's different from other schools.

I think it's all good stuff. I used my foundation in languages to "translate" math when tutoring - i.e. there are multiple ways you can view parts of equations, here are a bunch, find the best one that works for you and stick with it. I like tutoring way more than teaching, since everybody was there by choice. Almost everybody I tutored increased by at least 2 letter grades. But if I hadn't had a good chunk of variation in my education, I never would have figured out all the different ways to teach people the same thing.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Last time I checked, UNT required 2 semesters of writing but Lit is now one of the Humanities electives. I wonder if that's different from other schools.

I think it's all good stuff. I used my foundation in languages to "translate" math when tutoring - i.e. there are multiple ways you can view parts of equations, here are a bunch, find the best one that works for you and stick with it. I like tutoring way more than teaching, since everybody was there by choice. Almost everybody I tutored increased by at least 2 letter grades. But if I hadn't had a good chunk of variation in my education, I never would have figured out all the different ways to teach people the same thing.

..

My two UNT kids took concurrent English classes in HS as well as my Aggie kid... They have done well (Aggie one is computer engineer/ Lawyer /business exec.) with no problems but I am not sure that is true of everyone that does that. I don't think any of my three had to write as much as I did as a freshman.

[GTWT]

So much to think about:

1) Universities have a choice - a bigger core means a smaller major. I would rather my biology majors have a 3000-level course in genetics than a 1000-level course in music appreciation.

2) There is pressure from politicians to 'dumb-down' the college education & make it quicker & cheaper. If that's what they want they should just invest in community colleges. A true liberal arts education is expensive & time-consuming - and critical if we want an educated citizenry. Of course that name's part of the problem - some idiots think a 'liberal' arts education is an effort to turn out political liberals.

3) Dual-credit courses are, in my humble opinion, a joke. This is an integral part of the campaign to make education cheaper & quicker - never-mind the effect on quality. Universities should look more closely at a students's transcripts & award dual-credit courses college credit only if they truly were taught on a college level - including a stipulation that the instructor would have passed muster on college accreditation (usually meaning that they had a master's or equivalent in the subject).

4) OldGuyStudent - I ain't calling B.S., but where are history majors required to take a course in molecular biology? Yeah, I'm calling b.s.

There. I feel better now.

[GTWT]

Oh! And Fake Lonnie Finch, what courses do you want those finance, economics, & business law classes to replace?

[UNTFan23]

So much to think about:

1) Universities have a choice - a bigger core means a smaller major. I would rather my biology majors have a 3000-level course in genetics than a 1000-level course in music appreciation.

If NT didn't require Music Appreciation my brother and sister-in-law might have never met and I wouldn't have my awesome nephew. See, elective courses do matter in people's lives.

[oldguystudent]

4) OldGuyStudent - I ain't calling B.S., but where are history majors required to take a course in molecular biology? Yeah, I'm calling b.s.

UC Irvine, 1990-1994. I took one quarter of Molecular Biology and one quarter an introductory Astronomical Physics course. Took one year of chemistry, one year of calculus. Also took one quarter of theatrical stage design and one quarter of music theory. So, we were able to squeeze in a greater number of classes due to the quarter system instead of the semester system, but still think it was completely unnecessary. Although, I am the total hit of the party in that I can speak confidently on RNA and how it relates to DNA, so there's that.

One aspect of that school that I really appreciate as an adult is that every student, regardless of major, had to take two years of writing. If you got a B or higher in the first two quarters of the lower division writing series, you could opt into creative writing for the spring quarter. Otherwise, it was more essays and citation lessons for you, bub.

The upper division writing courses were generally research papers related to your major. I did a year-long research thesis on Pliny the Younger and his views on society, class, and slavery. Don't remember a damn thing about the subject matter, but when it came time to write research papers in grad school, they were a freaking breeze.

Edited January 7, 2014 by oldguystudent

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

So much to think about:

1) Universities have a choice - a bigger core means a smaller major. I would rather my biology majors have a 3000-level course in genetics than a 1000-level course in music appreciation.

2) There is pressure from politicians to 'dumb-down' the college education & make it quicker & cheaper. If that's what they want they should just invest in community colleges. A true liberal arts education is expensive & time-consuming - and critical if we want an educated citizenry. Of course that name's part of the problem - some idiots think a 'liberal' arts education is an effort to turn out political liberals.

3) Dual-credit courses are, in my humble opinion, a joke. This is an integral part of the campaign to make education cheaper & quicker - never-mind the effect on quality. Universities should look more closely at a students's transcripts & award dual-credit courses college credit only if they truly were taught on a college level - including a stipulation that the instructor would have passed muster on college accreditation (usually meaning that they had a master's or equivalent in the subject).

4) OldGuyStudent - I ain't calling B.S., but where are history majors required to take a course in molecular biology? Yeah, I'm calling b.s.

There. I feel better now.

..

I disagree with your community college comments a bit but not entirely ..... I teach at one, and our transfer students do better at UNT and others that ones than actually start there... [ we get excellent feedback from UNT and some feedback from others but not as good ] So many kids can not afford to go off for four years and it gives them a chance to better their education. ...... You are right about the State of Texas wanting to create more community colleges...but not for the reason you stated. .. The state, due to the now extremely conservative legislature wants to have them because they are cheaper to operate for the state. Community colleges are largely funded by LOCAL TAXES and universities aren't.... so they are much cheaper for the state... That is the real reason... Since Perry and the GOP legislature has been in control, state funding has dropped EVERY session which causes your local taxes to increase if you live in a place that has a community college.

At a staff meeting a few years ago our College President said he had good news and bad news .. "the good news our enrollment had increased by 10% ... the bad news is the governor of the great state of Texas had dropped our funding by 10% ... and note I did not say the great governor of the state of Texas." Perry and the legislature the past 12 years has been awful for education... that wasn't even the year of the $25 Billion dollar budget problem despite the fact he was bragging how good the Texas economy was.... How did that make any sense....?? 1000's in education lost their jobs and class size increased especially in public schools... he and many like him need to go.... and soon.

I do agree with you on concurrent classes.... the education they get in those classes rarely equals what we and major universities provide. Too many students are placed in them that should not be and the same quality usually really isn't there. -- Oddly I honestly believe we do a better job at the freshman level than universities.. who teaches those at a university ??.. a TA ( I was one) who may have never taught before ( I had) and just has a BA and would not be qualified to teach at a community college. ( or by a real prof. in a class too large to ask questions) I get to teach university students in the summer that constantly complain about how bad so many are.. --Have you ever taken a community college credit course at a good large community college..??.. you might be surprised at the quality and standards if not.

Who in heck requires molecular biology for history majors... it might be an option for a science credit ... but required... I doubt it. ... I think someone lied to you.

If you honestly believe Perry has lowered you taxes.... name which one... not sales, gasoline, alcohol or any taxes you likely pay.. but to various businesses (and contributors) ... Your local taxes (mostly property) has climbed as a result of his actions. --- Pay attention to what is really happening and not what they claim at times. Driving people out of public schools with poor funding and into private school is also cheaper for the state but not for the parents of those kids. .

Edited January 7, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[oldguystudent]

Meh. I took what I took -- twenty years ago. I don't recall ever meeting with an academic advisor. They handed us an inch thick catalog when we came in as freshman and said, "Here. Follow this."

I can't find a copy of the 1990 catalog. I looked at the current catalog, and there are waaaay more options than I remember for the science category. For us, I remember it was pretty much chemistry and biology. The school and its course offerings have grown significantly since then.

Maybe I took something I didn't need to. Don't really care at this point. Was making somewhat of a passing remark and am getting called out on it. 19-year-old me wasn't very bright. He was busy chasing skirts through barley colored glasses and sneaking drinks while working his way through school at the campus pub.

[GTWT]

Hi Screaming Eagle 66,

I don't mean to paint community colleges with a broad brush. They have a place in education and, when everything works well, they serve a valuable function. Much depends on the faculty the community college employs. Often they are well prepared to teach their subject, sometimes they are not. Our local community college has several well-trained biologists (my area) who are full-time faculty and who do an excellent job of teaching introductory biology, microbiology, and other freshman & sophomore courses. However, they also employ many part time instructors, many of whom are poorly qualified to teach college level biology.

It's true that university classes are often too big and are sometimes taught by teaching fellows (grad students, at least in my area, rarely teach anything other than labs). I think the biggest academic failing at universities I'm familiar with is the huge classes at the freshman level. But, even with that failing, it's still a university, with all the excitement & intellectual atmosphere that goes with being at a major university. That's something the community college student misses out on. I know there are good reasons for going the community college route - lower costs, close to home, & small classes with lots of attention from the instructor - but I still think academically prepared students should choose to attend a university if they can afford to.

I'm biased. I loved my time at UT & UNT and I still love being in a university environment. My son, when he's a bit older, will be encouraged to attend the best university he can get into - and hopefully that will be UNT.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---I agreed with about everything you said ... just not that encouraging community college development is an attempt to dumb down things... There are a few tiny ones that I am not impressed with but the large ones I know of do a very good job and students come out well prepared to the university level. My personal kids-- two went a university first and took summer community college classes in order to avoid some mega-sized classses.. My daughter stayed one year at a community college (her choice) then to UNT . Wife went to TxTech (lived in Lubbock) and I started my college career at a small hometown 4-year college and had some extremely good profs and oddly all of them had graduated at UNT which influenced my choice of where to transfer. A lot of my students (some very good) can not afford four years at a university or are a bit immature at 18 and stay to grow up and learn be a student We also get some students that went off and played way too much elsewhere and did poorly, were kicked out, or parents brought them home ... "some" may not be bad students really just too immature to meet expectations away from home.

---Absolutely the state (Perry and group) would rather partially fund a community college over a four year one that they have complete responsibility for..... because that takes so much of the funding responsibility away from them and onto local taxpayers in a community college district . It is not about dumbing down as you stated. Many of my ex-students are engineers, geologists, lawyers, successful business people, and even a few doctors and college profs teaching the subject I teach, mathematics.. ..

---Personally I have very little respect for most on-line courses... even less than dual credit ones.... and we even have a few.

.

Edited January 7, 2014 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[GTWT]

I think we're on the same page. Education isn't a one-size-fits-all thing. Every student should look at his/her needs & make an informed choice about their education.

By the way, I share your concerns about on-line classes. In my opinion it's one more way of trying to do things on the cheap. That's rarely a good plan.

[KRAM1]

If NT didn't require Music Appreciation my brother and sister-in-law might have never met and I wouldn't have my awesome nephew. See, elective courses do matter in people's lives.

When did UNT start requiring Music Ed? I have two UNT degrees... Never once set foot in a Music Ed or Art Ed Class.

[wardly]

Sounds like the article is referring to UNT/Dallas