UNT School of Law

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

I'm sure there has been a thread about this in the past, but just wondering if anyone has heard any progress about the law school? As a perspective law student I know UNT school of law is a hard sell for me because of the possibility of not getting an ABA accreditation. I know that if they don't get this there's a possibility the students there won't be able to sit for the bar. It's also just scary in general to attend a brand new law school that hasn't established itself in this economy(cliche 'in this economy statement' I know). Anyone in the legal field or knowledge of law school know if my fears are warranted?

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

By the way, I think the location is outstanding.

[Eastwood Eagle]

Last I heard it was scheduled to make its opening class next fall. Not sure if that is still the case.

As a potential law student, do not go to UNT's Law school. I love my alma mater but the legal market is bad right now and you don't want to take on the debt and have a long career fighting to pay off that debt. In fact, don't go to a law school in Texas not named UT, UH or SMU. However, that is my two cents.

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

Last I heard it was scheduled to make its opening class next fall. Not sure if that is still the case.

As a potential law student, do not go to UNT's Law school. I love my alma mater but the legal market is bad right now and you don't want to take on the debt and have a long career fighting to pay off that debt. In fact, don't go to a law school in Texas not named UT, UH or SMU. However, that is my two cents.

This is the statement per the website that concerns me the most: "The College of Law does not make any representation to any applicant that it will be approved by the ABA before the graduation of any matriculating student." Like I said I love the location and extremely competitive tuition rate, but just don't know if I can take that risk.

[Eastwood Eagle]

Ace the LSAT and keep your grades up and don't worry about it. Hopefully one day the school is respectable, don't be a part of the trial run.

ETA - if you ever want advice about law school/applications don't hesitate to PM me.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Eastwood Eagle

[MCMLXXX]

Royal Furgeson addressed the Denton County Bar recently. As I recall he said tuition would be around $12000, anyone who teaches must have practiced law for 10 years, first class 100-120 students, will try to be accredited in year three and if not then year four etc., and emphasis on diversity. Said a lot more but that is a synopsis of what I remember.

As far as schools, if I wanted to ultimately live in this area I would go to UT, SMU, Baylor or Tech. I am not sure what to think about A&M. I have met some good Texas Wesleyan attorneys and A&M didn't pay $73 million to buy the school (excluding the building) for any reason other than to make it the best money can buy.

I would not recommend UH to anyone.

[Eastwood Eagle]

Royal Furgeson addressed the Denton County Bar recently. As I recall he said tuition would be around $12000, anyone who teaches must have practiced law for 10 years, first class 100-120 students, will try to be accredited in year three and if not then year four etc., and emphasis on diversity. Said a lot more but that is a synopsis of what I remember.

As far as schools, if I wanted to ultimately live in this area I would go to UT, SMU, Baylor or Tech. I am not sure what to think about A&M. I have met some good Texas Wesleyan attorneys and A&M didn't pay $73 million to buy the school (excluding the building) for any reason other than to make it the best money can buy.

I would not recommend UH to anyone.

I hope you mean you would not recommend UHLC to anyone trying to practice in DFW. If you mean in general, you have a skewed version of law schools and the legal market now. UHLC places incredibly well in Houston and south Texas. If you are in the top third you have a nice shot at a V100 firm (top 10% is basically a lock unless you bomb out your on-campus interview). You can not even come close to saying that about Baylor or Tech.

Also, not being able to go to DFW from UHLC is a myth. Most people at UHLC choose to work in Houston because they love Houston and going to UHLC played a part in that. Speaking from experience, a lot of Dallas firms come to OCI here, but do not get heavily bid because most UHLC students want to work Houston because we have a larger legal market and more big firms. I'm sure the myth goes the other way too, SMU students want to stay in Dallas that is why you don't see a lot of SMU grads down here.

ETA- after further thought. I would not recommend any law school besides UT if you are risk adverse. At SMU and UHLC you will have to grind away and be near the top of your class in order to get a job that will let you pay off your loan in a reasonable amount of time. Just something to think about OP.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Eastwood Eagle

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

If you can afford private, Tulsa Law is a good regional.

If not, any state school will do...well, almost any state school. Get a high LSAT score and keep your grades up so that the higher rated schools are an option for you.

[oldguystudent]

So I'm curious. What is one aiming for fresh out of law school? Is there a consortium of giant firms (The name Aikens Gump comes to mind) that new graduates aspire to a la the big 4 accounting firms?

If one doesn't snag a huge national firm gig, is one doomed to never pay off one's loans?

Being that I'm older than dirt itself, I had no hope of a big 4 job. Got in with a tiny regional, and they pay me just as well as any big firm, and get me more experience, faster, on more complex tax issues.

So, I guess what I'm asking, is there only one financially viable path out of law school?

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

OGS, I found that law school gave me a three year break from reality as opposed to a two year break, as I'd have had in an MBA program.

You are correct in that Big Law is getting smaller. Many of my old classmates were laid off in 2008/2009. Those firms have not staffed up again to the same degree.

Also, technology/availability of forms is allowing people to do small legal things themselves. Tort law reform in Texas has also shut down a good bit of plaintffs' attorneying. Not enough, but enough to make a difference on the insurance premium front for many types of risks.

The advantage of the law degree is being able to pull back the curtain and see Oz on so many different things legislatively. Whether the kid ever practices law is irrelevant; he will gain valuable business insight if he takes the right classes. Knowledge of the law is very useful in business.

The thing about law school is this: once you finish all of the required the first year, you pretty much choose what you want to study in years two and three.

I loaded up on business-related law classes and took no classes that had to do with criminal or trial law. I did my seminar (the 40+page researched part that gives you the doctorate) in International Petroleum Transactions. The professor was R. Dobie Langekamp. He was Deputy Assistant Secretary for Oil, Natural Gas and Oil Shale in Jimmy Carter's Department of Energy and Deputy Assistant Secretary for Naval Petroleum Reserves and Divestment in Bill Clinton's. In addition, he had practiced law in D.C. and Tulsa, and had owned his own oil company. He was an excellent prof. He hooded me at graduation.

Knowing I didn't want to be a knuckle-dragging plaintiffs' attorney, I spent years two and three taking as many business related classes as I clould: Real Estate Law, Workers Compensation Law, Employment Law, Corporations, Agency & Partnership, Decedents' Estates & Trusts, Oil & Gas Law, Land Use Law, Federal Income Taxation, Taxation of Corporations and Shareholders.

Tulsa has a professor, Ray Yasser, who writes one of the two sports law textsbooks in the United States. I took both parts of his Sport Law, amateur and professional. Also took an Administrative Law class...boring as dry, white paint. Took Alternative Dispute Resolutions and Mediation as well. Many, and I'd say most, contracts today have an alternative dispute clause in them, usually in the form of arbitration.

You make your own career path in law school. If you want to be a trial attorney, you can take classes geared toward that in years two and three. If you are interested in the criminal angle, you can go head long into that. If you are interested in corporate/business law, you can do that.

If you have any interest at all in business, many law schools and business school give you the opportunity to jointly earn an MBA and JD. I was too lazy. You had to apply and be accepted to both. After getting into law school, I was pretty much done with taking tests and making applications. That's really the only thing I regret about that time period in my life. Should have nailed down the MBA and JD at the same time.

Edited October 31, 2013 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[Eastwood Eagle]

So I'm curious. What is one aiming for fresh out of law school? Is there a consortium of giant firms (The name Aikens Gump comes to mind) that new graduates aspire to a la the big 4 accounting firms?

If one doesn't snag a huge national firm gig, is one doomed to never pay off one's loans?

Being that I'm older than dirt itself, I had no hope of a big 4 job. Got in with a tiny regional, and they pay me just as well as any big firm, and get me more experience, faster, on more complex tax issues.

So, I guess what I'm asking, is there only one financially viable path out of law school?

I think the answer to your first question depends on what school you go to. Certainly at UT, SMU and UH people are gunning for big law. Crude numbers, but top half at UT has a shot and top 1/3 at SMU/UHLC have a shot. These are your Baker Botts, Akin Gumps, Vinson Elkins, Haynes Boones of the world. These jobs pay the most straight out of law school which allows students to get out of debt fast, and I mean fast. For instance, even w/ a scholarship at UHLC I'm looking at around 70k in debt when I'm done. First year salary big law is more than doubled the amount of debt I will have, you can see what that path is so appealing. This is the preferred path for everyone even if they don't want to admit it. The work is tedious, long hours and soul sucking but it pays too much to pass up on.

If you are not at UT, SMU or UHLC you don't really have a shot at big law in Texas, unless you have a connection or you literally are a top five student at Tech, Baylor (I'm probably being a little tough on Baylor here) or South Texas (who does surprisingly well in Houston).

After that, its hoping for a midsize firm that does work that you like. After that it is small firms, that don't pay well and you will be paying off debt for a long time. There is an advantage to this work because you will get hands on experience fast and then you could potentially move to a larger firm and make more. Students at the bottom of UH/SMU/Baylor will get these jobs and this is what most South Texas, St. Mary's, Tex Wes and North Texas grads will end up fighting for (remember, a lot of students will go straight up unemployed). A lot of small firms (not talking about boutique firms) pay around 40k-50k. Assume you have a loan at 100k gathering interest, do the math on how fun you will be having.

OP- I caution you. You will be fellow UNT alum and I don't want to see you get burned like I have seen some of my old undergrad friends get burned. You can ruin your future financially by making a poor choice on what law school to attend. Really only consider going to law school if you get in to UT, SMU or UH (latter are still risky in my opinion w/ out scholarship) or if you get in to Baylor or Tech with a massive scholarship (which Baylor hands out massive scholarships like candy). Beware its tough out there, I'm seeing a lot of my friends at UHLC struggle to find summer work for 2L, even ones who did well 1L year. Imagine how difficult students at other schools are doing.

Side note. None of this applies to people who want to do public interest or work for the government. I'm talking about people who want to work at a private firm, which is the majority of law students (at least at UHLC and my buddies' law schools).

ETA - great advice TFLF. Even if a school does not have a joint program, a lot of the time you can take classes at the business school and have the credits count. Also, it cannot be said enough how important the LSAT is. Seriously, you get three chances to take it and you better use all three chances. If you don't use all three chances it is because you are being lazy. And if you are lazy you will get eaten alive in law school. Better put in the hard work now.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Eastwood Eagle

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

Good advice guys,honestly wasn't too interested in UNT Law just wanted to confirm my worries. My GPA and LSAT are pretty much set and I'm looking at middle of the pack (Tech,Tulsa) law schools.

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

Not so much worries but curiosity about the new school.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

The other thing that Eastwood will confirm is that if you finish low ranked in your graduating class, you will be working at the D.A.'s office for only $30 to $40k a year.

And, so, your career path will be working in the D.A.'s office, then becoming so tired of only making $30 to $40k for all of the crap working in the D.A.'s office entails that you'll become a criminal defense attorney. You'll be saddled with debt, disillusioned by the justice system, and having broke psychopaths as your main clients...Hello, Mr./Ms. Public Defender.

(SIDENOTE: I often hear people ask, "Who in their right mind would defend this murderer or that rapist, etc.?" The answer is someone who didn't study hard enough in law school, got bogged down in law school debt, and couldn't get a job at a law firm or the D.A.'s office.)

If you can read the demographics behind the political tea leaves and parlay your crappy law school status and D.A. office work into an actual run at the D.A. position...and win despite having the I.Q. of a half-eaten grapefruit...Hello, Texas Wesleyan grad Craig Watkins.

If your law school grades are so poor that you can't get into the D.A.'s office, you hang your own shingle and start working the divorce/DUI defense route.

Now, if you have some other special type of education, you can compliment it with law. I'm talking about having an undergaduate degree in Accounting/being a C.P.A. or having a degree in Engineering, Physics or something science or computer-related.

Many law grads with an Accounting background/C.P.A. will go on to do an extra year and get an L.L.M. in Taxation. Tax attorneying will be around to pay the bills as long as there is an IRS...so, forever.

Guys with Engineering/Science/Computer degrees and J.D.'s take the Patent Bar. Patent Attorneys can make a good living. We're in the days where intellectual property laws are still being actively hashed out, kind of like employment and antitrust laws were about a century ago. If you have a good technological/scientific background and a law degree, seriously look at becoming a patent attorney.

Edited October 31, 2013 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

I am only interested in UNT Law if they are hiring me - a perfectly good alum - as an adjunct to teach insurance law...or, sports law, having studied it under Ray Yasser.

Edited October 31, 2013 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[wardly]

If we are lucky, there will be no UNT @ Dallas School of Law, as it is completely unnecessary as a waste of taxpayers money.

[Eastwood Eagle]

Yeah, that is certainly a well thought out and true argument Wardly. However, seems like it is too late for that. Also, with TAMU move to acquire Tex Wes, it will be tougher for UNT to become respectable in the legal community in north Texas. Certainly, TAMU's aggressive move is going to make Tex Wes better (which is not hard to do frankly).

TFLF - everything you said is spot on. Someone from the outside will think you are being bitter, cynical or sarcastic. But its the truth. I would add a caveat, if you are going to a lower ranked school or think keeping grades up will be an issue, look in to public interest loan forgiveness. I believe there is a program where you can have debt forgiven if you choose to go in to public interest (which may include DA work).

Edited October 31, 2013 by Eastwood Eagle

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Yeah, that is certainly a well thought out and true argument Wardly. However, seems like it is too late for that. Also, with TAMU move to acquire Tex Wes, it will be tougher for UNT to become respectable in the legal community in north Texas. Certainly, TAMU's aggressive move is going to make Tex Wes better (which is not hard to do frankly).

TFLF - everything you said is spot on. Someone from the outside will think you are being bitter, cynical or sarcastic. But its the truth. I would add a caveat, if you are going to a lower ranked school or think keeping grades up will be an issue, look in to public interest loan forgiveness. I believe there is a program where you can have debt forgiven if you choose to go in to public interest (which may include DA work).

Also, and here again we're talking about those who finish with lower grades, some choose to go the JAG/Military route. I certainly don't want to belittle the military in any way. But, the fact is, the people I graduated with who went JAG were not at the top of the class.

However, JAG does help you pay off the debt pretty quickly. I don't know, or haven't heard, whether JAG has been adversely affected by defense department cuts. I just know that they were always recruiting people at TU Law pretty aggressively and several I know took them up on it.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Now, there's another angle at TU Law and that is Native American Law. The Native American Tribes/Nations have their own laws apart from the United States. TU Law has a special program for learning Native American law and endless opportunities to work with tribes/nations on legal affairs while still in school.

Arizona Law has an LLM in Indigenous Peoples Law. I know a gal, who was a smokin' hot Oklahoma State grad, who went through the native law program at TU, then got the LLM at Arizona. She ended up working for a tribal association in Arizona for awhile before moving back to Tulsa.

Many schools have special programs like this, unusual niches that they have developed due to the school's geographic location and demographic.

I went to Tulsa because at the time I was married to a gal who was a dentist. She graduated from Baylor Dental (which A&M now owns) and then did a year of graduate dentistry at OU Dental in Oklahoma City. She then got a job in Tulsa. My parent both grew up there and still had family there; so, it was kind of a no-brainer.

However, if you are young and single - or, even married and can move anywhere because your spouse isn't tied heavily into a job - look closely at schools around the country at find one that matches your legal interest.

The truth is, you are only young once. The years are going to pass whether you go to law school or not. If you have it in your sights, go ahead and do it. But, do it wisely. Study hard for the LSAT. Keep your undergraduate GPA above 3.0, or as close to it as possible. Research what each law school has to offer from cost to programs and everything in between.

Once you are accepted to a few schools, choose one and study your ass off during your 1L Year. The grades you make during your first semester determine whether you get invited to any law reviews. Your 1L Year determines, largely, whether or not you get a cherry internship as well. Fair or not, that's just the law school game. If you are going to be in, you've got to play it.

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

I am only interested in UNT Law if they are hiring me - a perfectly good alum - as an adjunct to teach insurance law...or, sports law, having studied it under Ray Yasser.

Do you practice insurance law in the Dallas area? The office I work for now does insurance law.

[oldguystudent]

So you mention the CPA people who get LLMs. I'm curious. Is there an asshole requirement for admission into such a program? I have not had pleasant interactions with those guys at all.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Do you practice insurance law in the Dallas area? The office I work for now does insurance law.

No. I sell commercial insurance, business to business. All other lines (personal, group, life, health), I dabble in.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

So you mention the CPA people who get LLMs. I'm curious. Is there an asshole requirement for admission into such a program? I have not had pleasant interactions with those guys at all.

Unless you have a lot of money, why would you need an attorney who is also a CPA?