1-AA in the 80's

[pogWo4life]

I have been wondering this since I have read about it a few days.

How in the world did we get into so much debt in the 70's and 80's that we had to go to 1-AA?

[SilverEagle]

Money was certainly the reason for the decision, but I don't believe that debt was.

Someone else can correct my post about this, but it's my understanding that the reason we went 1-AA was that the NCAA changed the rules in the late 70's-early 80's about minimum average home game attendance and stadium capacity for D-1 schools. The minimum stadium capacity was 30K, and I'm not sure about the minimum average home attendance. You were exempt about these rules if you were in a D-1 conference.....like SMU (in the SWC) was in those days. But North Texas was an independent. The administration was not willing to find the money to expand Fouts to the minimal size of 30K. So they made the decision to move down to 1-AA and joined the Southland Conf.

It's my belief that we could have brought suit against the NCAA and thrown legal delays after legal delays at them until we had time to figure out a better plan. But historically the administration has never been committed to athletics enough to do such a thing. Even though we probably had staff attorneys who could have done such a thing without much problem.

To give you additional information about the administrations attitude in those days. North Texas won the Southland conference in 1983 and was set to go into the 1-AA playoffs against Nevada. We had first choice about being the home team, but because the NCAA required a minimal commitment from the host school for 10,000 seats to be sold, we passed and let Nevada Reno be the home team. Our average attendance that year was 12,080. Two weeks before this decision we had won the SLC title decisively (27-7) over ULM even though we had been slight underdogs. AND THE GAME WAS CARRIED LOCALLY ON ABC. The very next week we finished up the season at home kicking the crap out of UTA 52-15. And still our administration was not willing to commit to guaranteeing 10K seats for a 1-AA playoff game? As a result we ended up playing in Reno with at least the last part of the game being in a snow and ice storm. Most people believe that we would have won by 2 tds in Denton, but we lost by a field goal in Reno.

Edited October 11, 2013 by SilverEagle

[drex]

Good memory, Silver. Here is something that some might have missed. In the late 80's the wonderful NCAA let it be known that they were going to do away with the 1-AA football classification. So, if you wanted to continue with football you either went up in classification and requirements or you went down to division II. As it turns out this never happened, as the classification of 1-AA became FCS. Anyway, it was great for us because it caused the administration to make the decision to go up or down in classification. Since they did not want the wrath of the alumni base by going down to Div.2, they decided to expand the stadium and move back up in classification to meet the D1 standards. Had this not occurred we might still be in 1-AA pergatory, since Hurley and the boys seemed quite content to let us stay in the Southland, etc.

[UNT90]

Good memory, Silver. Here is something that some might have missed. In the late 80's the wonderful NCAA let it be known that they were going to do away with the 1-AA football classification. So, if you wanted to continue with football you either went up in classification and requirements or you went down to division II. As it turns out this never happened, as the classification of 1-AA became FCS. Anyway, it was great for us because it caused the administration to make the decision to go up or down in classification. Since they did not want the wrath of the alumni base by going down to Div.2, they decided to expand the stadium and move back up in classification to meet the D1 standards. Had this not occurred we might still be in 1-AA pergatory, since Hurley and the boys seemed quite content to let us stay in the Southland, etc.

But, by the aluminum stands surrounding Fouts indicate, they decided to do it the cheapest way possible? Question. No info.

SSP, pay attention to these threads, and you will see why we are so beat down around here.

Edited October 12, 2013 by UNT90

[MeanGreenTexan]

But, by the aluminum stands surrounding Fputs indicate, the decided to do it the cheapest way possible? Question. No info.

SSP, pay attention to these threads, and you will see why we are so beat down around here.

AND, to pile on here, we only got those cheap aluminum stands put in because Uncle Charn felt sorry for us, and we did not have the booster system we have now, and we had MUCH less Administrative desire than we do now.

Thank you Uncle Charn!

[DeepGreen]

And had we expanded Fouts to 30k back when we were Indy, I'd like to believe we would be right there with the likes of Cincinnati, Louisville, Tulsa, Memphis(basketball?), etc. We had our chance to step up but did not seize the moment. And we lost a great deal of momentum.

[FirefightnRick]

If 30k seat stadiums were a requirement in the 70's and 80's then how did the MAC schools get by with it?

Seems to me the 30k requirement kicked in in the early 90's but I could be wrong?

Comments?

Rick

[Mean Green 93-98]

If 30k seat stadiums were a requirement in the 70's and 80's then how did the MAC schools get by with it?

Seems to me the 30k requirement kicked in in the early 90's but I could be wrong?

Comments?

Rick

I've heard Silver's explanation before:

The minimum stadium capacity was 30K, and I'm not sure about the minimum average home attendance. You were exempt about these rules if you were in a D-1 conference.....like SMU (in the SWC) was in those days. But North Texas was an independent.

[VideoEagle]

One thing Silver Eagle left out was the WAY the NCAA made the change. It was based on what you had done the PREVIOUS years. There was no option to expand the stadium as you had to have already been using a stadium of the right size for several years before the rule went into effect. It is the only time, before or since, the NCAA has imposed a rule with retro-active standards so schools had no option to be able to comply.

The Mac schools stayed in not because they were a Division 1 conference, but because over half of their members either had a stadium the right size or had attendance at the right amount during the years before the rule went into effect.

Some school, I think Cincy, threatened to sue or take some action against the NCAA and were allow to go to 1A. Arkansas State tried to appeal the rule and I believe had the backing of a schools who were 1A and came the closest of anyone else to getting in.

But, no debt wasn't the problem at all.

[PlummMeanGreen]

AND, to pile on here, we only got those cheap aluminum stands put in because Uncle Charn felt sorry for us, and we did not have the booster system we have now, and we had MUCH less Administrative desire than we do now.

Thank you Uncle Charn!

Had a chance to meet your "Uncle Charn" back during a Spring Awards Banquet several years ago. He is a very nice and most humble guy. He gave UNT $22 MM about 3 years ago and I hear there will be more to come.

North Texas Myth #222 is...that we don't have a serious number of wealthy alums out there.....trust me, we do.

Another one of our alums came within a gnat's whisker of out- bidding Drayton MClane for ownership of the Houston Astros MLB club. Since McClane sold the Astros, he has been busy of late helping Baylor build its new football stadium; also............the CEO of Interstate Batteries (name escapes me) is a UNT alum as well. As many of you know, this list could go on and on and on....

Back To The Most Charming Charn: Charn said North Texas football gave him and his friends a social outlet when they were UNT students. He has a very warm spot for Mean Green football because of it.

On Another Front:

One post above mentioned our "live" ABC-TV televised game vs ULM here in the DFW area back in the day. Well, SUMG cut out and sent me a Dallas Morning News blurb that sportswriter Cathy Harasta wrote reporting that North Texas more than won its ratings time slot for that game and this "blurb" from me for those who don't think we have local TV ratings pulling power.

Funny thing is how so much larger all our UNT constituencies are now present day than we were back in 1983 when that game was televised. Wonder what those TV ratings would be today because of it?

GMG

PS: Many of us who were around hated our 12 years in NCAA D1-AA. It made us feel like 2'nd rate NCAA citizens and I assure you we lost many alums who literally said "enough is enough" the day we announced we would dip down to that level.

Edited October 11, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[KRAM1]

Some really good stuff here from Silver and drex...pay attention newbies....this speaks to the heart of the matter. And, explains a good bit as to why we find ourselves where we are today.

Thanks Silver and drex with a nod to the great Plumm as well!

[PlummMeanGreen]

One thing that I actually think was a North Texas Myth back when we changed from 1-A to 1-AA is that we had an AD on staff at that time who forgot to send to the NCAA offices a pretty sizeable fee that would have bought us more time at the NCAA 1-A level. Like I said, I really never did believe that and as much as I hate to say this.......... we went down to 1-AA in 1982 because that was what we were. Our football facilities back then were not even of a 1-AA quality.

GMG

[GrayEagle]

Here's my 2 cents worth while I still have some memory.

The attendance figure was 17,000 and I believe that as an independent we would have had to have that figure in 1983 if we appealed.

As Silver stated, money was a factor but not debt. Dr. Hurley wanted to build the academics at North Texas at that time (and not spend money on athletics. The 1-AA route would require a far smaller expenditure for athletics and no stadium expansion and that was Dr. Hurley's recommendation. He admitted that he was doing athletics no favors. To his credit, he did improve academics at the university.

The aluminum seats were not only the least expensive way to achieve the required seating capacity but it was also the quickest. With 30,000 seats we only had to meet the 17,000 figure one year; using the existing 20,000 capacity would have required us meeting that several years running (3?).

[FirefightnRick]

AND, to pile on here, we only got those cheap aluminum stands put in because Uncle Charn felt sorry for us, and we did not have the booster system we have now, and we had MUCH less Administrative desire than we do now.

Thank you Uncle Charn!

The students paid for a percentage and alumni raised the rest to pay for the seats. Charm bought something like 10,000 season tickets to help us get the 17,000 average we had to have that one single season to make the move back up.

Rick

[ADLER]

To give you additional information about the administrations attitude in those days. North Texas won the Southland conference in 1983 and was set to go into the 1-AA playoffs against Nevada. We had first choice about being the home team, but because the NCAA required a minimal commitment from the host school for 10,000 seats to be sold, we passed and let Nevada Reno be the home team. Our average attendance that year was 12,080. Two weeks before this decision we had won the SLC title decisively (27-7) over ULM even though we had been slight underdogs. AND THE GAME WAS CARRIED LOCALLY ON ABC. The very next week we finished up the season at home kicking the crap out of UTA 52-15. And still our administration was not willing to commit to guaranteeing 10K seats for a 1-AA playoff game? As a result we ended up playing in Reno with at least the last part of the game being in a snow and ice storm. Most people believe that we would have won by 2 tds in Denton, but we lost by a field goal in Reno.

North Texas lost by a field goal in overtime. North Texas won the overtime coin flip, and Corky who was unfamiliar with the 1AA overtime rules replied "Hell yes we want the ball first". North Texas made one first down but then fumbled when pushing for the touchdown. Nevada's star kicker Tony Zendejas then trotted on the field and simply kicked a short field goal to win the game.

And that suddenly, a great season was shockingly ended.

[GreenEggs&Ham™]

I was a studnet at NTSU in the 80's and being from out of state and having "fresh" eyes on the 1-AA FB sitiuation: it seemed like an inside job dating back pre Hurley.

$MU, TAMU (because of their lack self confidence compared to UT) very much wanted to push NTSU down to boost their self worth.

Since there are no real facts presented here, thought I would give my 2­ cents worth (i.e. imho)

[PlummMeanGreen]

I was a studnet at NTSU in the 80's and being from out of state and having "fresh" eyes on the 1-AA FB sitiuation: it seemed like an inside job dating back pre Hurley.

$MU, TAMU (because of their lack self confidence compared to UT) very much wanted to push NTSU down to boost their self worth.

Since there are no real facts presented here, thought I would give my 2­ cents worth (i.e. imho)

Had we averaged 30K to 40K in all our games in the Cotton Bowl and Texas Stadium back in the late 60's to the 70's, there would have been not one North Texas president (or his/her BOR's) who would have dared recommending nothing else but moving forward with that kind of burgeoning NCAA D1-A football program because of having such (here are those 2 words again)......................good attendance .

So many good things can really come as a result of having great support for a college football program. UTSA will be able to fast forward their own football program much like South Florida because of what they are doing now and not so much with their W/L record but...............A-T-T-E-N-D-A-N-C-E.

We are hoping in this our inaugural year in CUSA that our top leaders at UNT will see what UTSA, Old Dominion and Charlotte are doing with season ticket sales and for UTSA at the turnstiles, maybe swallow a little pride with what these upstarts are doing and even copy-cat what those 3 programs are doing if we have to.

I think this is why so many of our elect want to see a bigger than ever campus-wide focus on this attendance thing at North Texas so we don't have to suffer thru any more NCAA classification demotions and BTW.........this has been a concern long before Rick V, Coach Mac and all their staffs came to Denton. They did not create the problem because like all their predecessors...........they inherited it. Ad nausem time again, but this attendance thing deserves a high powered focus from the very top and that means Dr. Rawlins and his BOR's. Just my 02, too.

Edited October 12, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[untjim1995]

This was a great topic I just stumbled upon.

I think the i-aa fiasco will eventually wear off around here--as the gradautes of UNT from the 2000s and beyond will have only known UNT as a FBS program, albeit a non-AQ. But there are more people connected to UNT Football from the SBC Championship years in 2001-2004 than probably all of the almus from 1985-1995 put together.

Reading Gosselin's article from his trip to Apogee reminded me of just how low this place was for athletics when RV took over. To have to see an AD face a reallity of less than 200 people at a 1-A game before he took over while also looking at the total of $1.5 million dollars spent on athletics since 1979 is just ludicrous. All of this going on at a school in freaking Texas, of all places, where football is king.

As with many things, its always good to remember your past mistakes, so that you can try to avoid committing them again. I just fear that one day the AQs are going to split away from the rest of us and we are going to be left high and dry again, but this time it will be due to the greed of the AQs, not to our own incompetence. In the end, you control what you can control, though. If we are going to be a FBS program, we have to fund it, we have to promote it, we have to help it through attendance and leadership, as well as donations. North Texas has never been given anything--we have had to fight and hope for a scrap here or there. What this school could have looked like if we ever got admitted to the SWC in the 70s is almost haunting. Heck, even getting into CUSA back when there were openings, only to see us get blackballed again, makes me wonder where we would be today as a program, whether we were still in CUSA or in another conference. But it goes back to controlling what we can control--and with the recent funding of facilities, salaries, and budgets, UNT looks like we may have finally gotten what athletics--primarily football--can do for your university. We still have lots of work to do, but I'm hopeful to see this train keep on moving on down the tracks and not get derailed ever again by those folks in Denton who hate UNT athletics and the costs associated with it.

[PlummMeanGreen]

1-AA was more about perception than anything. We had one of our best seasons in our 100 year history as

a 1-AA school, ie, 1988.

Joe Kennedy once told his 2 oldest sons that perception was what people usually based most on, though.

Edited October 16, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[MeanGreenTexan]

The students paid for a percentage and alumni raised the rest to pay for the seats. Charm bought something like 10,000 season tickets to help us get the 17,000 average we had to have that one single season to make the move back up.

Rick

Ah. Educated by Rick again. Thanks for clearing that up sir.

[FirefightnRick]

Ah. Educated by Rick again. Thanks for clearing that up sir.

You bet, but I had forgotten about it too and was reminded by SUMG.

We have some good sources here for sure.

Rick

[greenjoe]

We were also ranked #1 in the nation in division 1-A. The only time other than golf that NT has ever been ranked tops in the nation.

But winning CUSA West would be better.

Let's start this week by beating LaTech.

GO MEAN GREEN

[FirefightnRick]

That's 1-AA.

Rick

[drex]

I-AA, my friend. Please tell the board your contributions by being a volunteer cheerleader and your official basketball backup band activities. Let's keep on tripping down memory lane.

[FirefightnRick]

I-AA, my friend. Please tell the board your contributions by being a volunteer cheerleader and your official basketball backup band activities. Let's keep on tripping down memory lane.

Don't forget the appearance of I-DA-HO he arranged for us.

Rick