Students and Alumni care more about winning than the BOR and the chanc

UNT90 · September 19, 2013

I am not sure why anyone would want to argue that the goal is appropriate because of past history. Based on the past eight years in football, then I guess you would be fine having an objective of playing at or better than 33%.

As someone who has been involved in corporate planning for a long time. I can tell you that long term (anything over a year) plans seldom mean anything because they can be changed the next year and most often are. They should however provide a focus and demonstrate an intent to where the organization wants to go.

Frankly, and I admit I having seem a lot; but, I have never seem an athletic program with such uninspiring objectives. It is usually something like being in the first quarter of the conference and content for championships. Obviously, most schools don't meet their long term goals; but at least they are striving for championship program.

Lets look at the stated goals:

Football: Finish in the top half of the conference at least half the time, play in a bowl game at least every other year.
What this is saying is that your big objective in football average 6-6 in the regular season. Note, it doesn't say be in the top half of the conference, but qualified it by being there half the time. Have they looked at CUSA, this is not the SEC? It is full of start up programs and has few very historically successful programs.
Basketball: Finish in the top half of the conference over a three-year span and be in the postseason at least once every six seasons.
Not really sure what this goal is, but it appears to be finish at seventh or better in the conference once every three years and get to some kind of post season tournament once every six years.
All other sports combined: Put two teams in the postseason each school year.
Probably the most challenging of the objectives but very vague. I guess if say W tennis and W soccer move on to the NCAA's every year then it does not matter if everything else is last place.
Again I think most of us are making too much of this, because it doesn't mean much. However, I think it sends entirely the wrong message to coaches, players and fans. I can just see opponent football coaches on the recruiting trail, referring to NT's goals and asking recruits is that the kind of program that you want to join. It is all too telling, that records that would get you terminated at a lot of places are stated goals at NT.

And, don't forget, a committee appointed by the BOR sat down with the AD to come up with this awe inspiring set of goals, so RV absolutely had input.

It just smells of dumbing down expectations to further fortify the easiest, least demanding AD job in FBS college sports.

How can anyone objectively look at these expectations and think the BOR gives a crap about winning or losing?

Just bring it in on budget and produce a 6-6 season every now and then and they could care less.

MeanGreenTexan · September 19, 2013

And, don't forget, a committee appointed by the BOR sat down with the AD to come up with this awe inspiring set of goals, so RV absolutely had input.
It just smells of dumbing down expectations to further fortify the easiest, least demanding AD job in FBS college sports.
How can anyone objectively look at these expectations and think the BOR gives a crap about winning or losing?
Just bring it in on budget and produce a 6-6 season every now and then and they could care less.

So, fire RV? Is this what you are advocating? What is the end-goal of these rants?

wardly · September 19, 2013

Goals and objectives must be reasonable and obtainable with a" little pie in the sky".Thats it.I got nothing else.

UNT90 · September 19, 2013

So, fire RV? Is this what you are advocating? What is the end-goal of these rants?

This football season should determine RV's fate, but it won't because the BOR voted to give him a 5 year (or is it much more than 5 years??) extension right after a disaster of a basketball hire.

So, that's a Todd Dodge hire, on top if a Shanice Stephens hire, capped off by a Tony Benford hire. Three of the worst hires in school history in the 3 major sports. Who gets an extension for that track record?? Anywhere but UNT?? I think not. At any other FBS school, RV and Benford would have been shown the door after that disaster of basketball season. Not here.

Jury is still out on DMac, but if we fall apart this year, RV should be gone. You can't keep a guy who doesn't know how to pick the right coaches for your major programs, no matter how much you think he is a good guy, no matter what level of friendship he has managed to establish with you, and no matter what level of access you get for minimal giving (a HUGE problem with this AD, in my opinion).

But the BOR has tied the success of our athletic program for the next 5 (or 10??) years to the neck of a guy who simply hasn't gotten it done on the field/court.

You don't reward a track record like RV's, you punish it.

Edited September 19, 2013 by UNT90

untjim1995 · September 19, 2013

So, fire RV? Is this what you are advocating? What is the end-goal of these rants?

In my opinion, the goal for this is to never let anyone believe we are in good shape as far as being a legitimate FBS program... And he is so right, it's not even funny.

For $hits and giggles, I want to hear what the BOR and College of Music have set for their goals for the future. Lets see if mediocrity is accepted there. I'll bet it's not even remotely acceptable to anyone associated with the College of Music or the Green Brigade.

I have come to accept that this place looks at athletics in a whole different view than every other school in the region. We are only in a watered-down CUSA because SMU left and they went up the road to get a school with a big enrollment. I'm sure the league is thrilled that they replaced a 10k enrollment school in SMU with a 38k enrollment in UNT, just to see 14k show up for a game last week. It is what it is--and it's why so many UNT alums identify themselves as Longhorns, Aggies, Red Raiders, Sooners, etc...

We continuously miss the boat on athletics, from budgeting, to personnel, to promotion. Anyone who argues otherwise is just deluded. If McCarney does turn it around here in the next two years, he will get offers from other places. And, just like Hayden did, he will leave for a school that likes football from the BOR down to the average student at that college. IOW, how it's not in Denton.

UNT90 · September 19, 2013

We continuously miss the boat on athletics, from budgeting, to personnel, to promotion. Anyone who argues otherwise is just deluded. If McCarney does turn it around here in the next two years, he will get offers from other places. And, just like Hayden did, he will leave for a school that likes football from the BOR down to the average student at that college. IOW, how it's not in Denton.

This right here. If we somehow go 9-4 this year, DMac will be June Jonesing us as quick as the BOR was to give RV that extension.

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that DMac has fallen in love with Denton, or that DMac is too old to be a serious candidate at a FBS big 5 (uh, Bill Snyder, anybody??), go right ahead.

But make no mistake, DMac will be out the door ASAP if a better head coaching gig comes along.

That the way college football go.

untjim1995 · September 19, 2013

This football season should determine RV's fate, but it won't because the BOR voted to give him a 5 year (or is it much more than 5 years??) extension right after a disaster of a basketball hire.
So, that's a Todd Dodge hire, on top if a Shanice Stephens hire, capped off by a Tony Benford hire. Three of the worst hires in school history in the 3 major sports. Who gets an extension for that track record?? Anywhere but UNT?? I think not. At any other FBS school, RV and Benford would have been shown the door after that disaster of basketball season. Not here.
Jury is still out on DMac, but if we fall apart this year, RV should be gone. You can't keep a guy who doesn't know how to pick the right coaches for your major programs, no matter how much you think he is a good guy, no matter what level of friendship he has managed to establish with you, and no matter what level of access you get for minimal giving (a HUGE problem with this AD, in my opinion).
But the BOR has tied the success of our athletic program for the next 5 (or 10??) years to the neck of a guy who simply hasn't gotten it done on the field/court.
You don't reward a track record like RV's, you punish it.

Exactly.

How people can feel good about RV as our AD is just amazing to me. It's the helluva guy syndrome--he opened up tailgating, he knows my name, he shakes my hand...Think about this for a second, the AD knows your name because there aren't enough fans around to get confused. I guarantee you that Chris Del Conte down at little old TCU doesn't know people like RV does because they have a lot of fans. We have about 10k diehards. Has that risen under RV? No doubt. Has tailgating made a huge difference? Of course, but to give him major kudos for doing what moronic ADs from the past wouldn't do is very low bar, IMHO. But the diehards would've been double if we had continued to improve after 2004. Instead, we watched the whole thing hit the absolute rock bottom a program can reach. Luckily, Coach Mac appears to at least have an idea on how to rebuild the team on the field, even if his employer doesn't give him much help in promoting the games or bringing in better opponents to help the turnstiles, since its obvious now that people come to Denton to watch the other team play us.

RV will be here until he retires. But for fans like me, I have invested 23 years in fandom here. The university has 5 years left to show me that winning in football and basketball matters to them finally. If we are still bad, then they lose me, just as they have lost so many others. I've given them enough time to convince me that revenue athletics matter here. It's more than building a stadium (finally) to replace the toilet you played in 30 years to long. It's more than paying the most you ever have in your history for a football coach. It's more than getting into your dream conference, even though it is a shell of what we dreamed it would be with SMU, UH, Tulane, Tulsa, ECU, and UCF all gone by next year. You show you are truly serious when you pay money to buyout bad hires--not when it is fiscally acceptable. Again, this place has until the end of the 2017 football season to show me that my fandom should continue. I will not be one of those guys who looks back and says I stuck with 3,4, or 5 decades worth of crap like others on this board have done. More power to those of you who have hung in there like that, but I'm just not willing to do that if the university doesn't show the same interest in winning that we all want as fans. The clock is ticking...

Also, you better beat UTSA. I don't care if they have been more competitive lately than anyone expected. They have three years of existence to our 100 years. That's an ender, too, just as Brett Vito mentioned at the beginning of the season by naming it the "Suicide Watch Game".

oldguystudent · September 19, 2013

I guarantee you that Chris Del Conte down at little old TCU doesn't know people like RV does because they have a lot of fans.

Oh no. I've seen that sniveling little advertisement for bad Armani suits schmoozing in the parking lot at baseball games like his life depended on it.

adman · September 19, 2013

When I read "post season play at least once every six years" I thought that seemed a little low too. So I did a little searching and found this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/ncaa-tournament/history/tourneyrecords

I don't know if this will offer any perspective or not but just glancing at it makes me feel a little better.

I also think that some are looking at this as the North Texas Ten Commandments of Sports. It isn't. As we improve I'm confident the written expectations of the University will be re-written. But we couldn't just go in and say: "National title" go.

As far as I know this is the FIRST time our University has even gone on record of having expectations. That alone should make you at least a little happy.

Green Mean · September 19, 2013

Let's alumni all give at a level well within our comfort levels and not give a freakin' dime to the music program, the library system, Denton public transportation, the fitness center, the dining halls or the book stores, because we don't use those services. But the students? Screw 'em. Let's soak 'em for every miserable high interest loan dime they've got. If they or their parents don't like it? Screw 'em in the back door and send 'em down to Sam Houston State. This isn't a public service institution of higher learning we're running here!

As for athletics making the university a better university, I challenge anyone here to list for me in order, where they would want their child to go if the kid were offered full rides to the following options: Oxford University as a Rhodes Scholar (no athletics), MIT (Division III), Harvard (FCS, not playoff eligible), Texas (BIG ASS $BILLION FBS), UNT (The hometown fave).

I'm with Thor on wherever he posted his little thing. I really enjoy what I get for my time and money at UNT. I never want to be a Texas or and Alabama. I like funding scholarships and watching our athletes graduate and go on to lucrative careers (and sometimes even become paying sponsors of this message board). I like knowing RV on a first name basis. I like having the means to get club seats at Apogee. I like knowing my fellow tailgaters, sharing beers and various charred carcasses of creatures who once roamed the earth.

We're a university first and foremost. A place that educates, and sends young adults into productive lives in the world, not a semi-pro sports franchise that acts as a check cashing service for a bunch of 18-year-old kids who just hope to lead a middle school honors band someday.

If we really want this thing to grow to a point where we can expect to go to bowls and the NCAAs every year, that responsibility really should lie on the alumni, not the student body. Alumni can choose whether to give and how much to give.

Forcing a unilateral fee on students, and insisting that it increase at a maximum level year after year after year without any input beyond a vote of students five years ago who knew they would never be subject to any fee is akin to most of the things that guys on the AM dial scream about every morning during drive-time. (I voted for the fee and paid it for one whopping semester)

You're comparing Harvard, Oxford, MIT, UT, and UNT....don't you think that's a bit extreme comparison.

And for anybody that doesn't think athletics does not add to the image and profile of a university is delusional. Winning and commitment to athletics gets people interested and that is how you start building your fan base. You build your fan base and you'll have more people come to games and you'll have a more prideful student body and alumni base. With that they'll be much more prone to giving more back not only to athletics but the school. The correlation is there. There's a reason A&M raised that much money. When TX was the NC in 2006 their applications multiplied the following year, the money was greater. Same with OU when they won the NC in 2000, the level of giving astronomically increased after that.

Obviously I'm not saying our teams have to win national championships to obtain this but athletics is a HUGE aspect of a large public university in the United States. It is what it is...that's just the reality. You not wanting to become a Texas or Alabama is exactly what the problem is with the UNT DNA. If we're not going to fight to strive higher then we'll always be little ol' North Texas.

As for the givers I certainly believe there is a mutual partnership between the BOR, alumni/donors, and students. We're lagging in every area it appears but it all starts from the top. If the BOR is broken then everything trickling down will be broken as well. While we have made strides the last decade, bear in mind that all we've done is to finally get back to the break even line and right above water. We were so bad and such a laughing stock that it was almost as if it couldn't get any worse.

Sorry for the longer post but I am in agreement with 90 for the most part. Yes there's been some strides but the school needs to be fighting to do a lot more. There's no reason why we can't be better. I just don't want to be in the top half of anything. I want to be the best and especially in CUSA, there is no reason why we can't be the leader of the pack and setting the standards at this point.

UNT90 · September 19, 2013

Oh no. I've seen that sniveling little advertisement for bad Armani suits schmoozing in the parking lot at baseball games like his life depended on it.

Gary Patterson is TCU's athletic director.

Ask anyone close to the program.

untjim1995 · September 19, 2013

Gary Patterson is TCU's athletic director.

Ask anyone close to the program.

And he should be, with all the wins and attention that he has brought to FW.

meangreener · September 19, 2013

I don't want UNT to be Texas. At all. UNT never will be, you can just accept that. We are the liberal art public college in Texas...which means we won't ever have a 100,000 seat stadium. I had a friend who came to UNT wanting to major in art. He came here because football isn't very important and we have the best fine arts school in the state. I could care less if only 1/3rd of the student body attended football games. I just want us to win and to have acceptable attendance. But that subset of students will always be here because the people (a good majority, not all) who major in Music, Fine Arts, Liberal Arts, etc won't support sports. This is just how this school is viewed among the state by young kids.

That'll never go away. We should aim to emulate UH or Boise. 30K attendance consistently.

Also, Mac won't be going anywhere. He's from the old mentality of loyalty. Like it or not, Mac will be here until he retires. You think other schools weren't throwing money at him at Iowa State?

If UNT ever somehow became like UT or even Tech, UNT and Denton both would lose what attracts a good percentage of people to it. UNT and Denton is weird. Not weird in an Austin way, actually weird. I didn't attend A&M or Tech for a reason. (Can't get into UT unless you're top 10 percent.)

Edited September 19, 2013 by meangreener

JRock · September 19, 2013

I majored in Art and I love athletics.

Mean Green 93-98 · September 19, 2013

There are a lot of art/music majors who love UNT football and post here on a regular basis. I'm another one.

It's not mediocrity that attracts students to UNT. We can improve our academics and we can improve our athletics and we can improve our school spirit without losing our identity.

Christopher Walker · September 19, 2013

Want to be part of the solution? Today is a great day to make a donation to help your favorite UNT program. It is North Texas Giving Day through the Communities Foundation of Texas. Donations of $25 or more are eligible to receive matching funds if made between 7am and midnight today. Your gift to the UNT Foundation will go to UNT's General Scholarship Fund unless you indicate otherwise.

Here is the link:

The DonorBridge website

BUMP BUMP BUMP

Seriously folks, if you were to ever donate to any non-profit in North Texas, today is the day to do so. Every donation is not only matched, but in most cases multiplied.

meangreener · September 19, 2013

I'm an English major and I love athletics. The majority don't, is my point. I can go take a poll of people in a 4000 level English class and maybe you end up with 3 or 4 who follow our football team and 1 or 2 who went to the game.

Conversely, I could go to a 4000 level business class and ask...chances are it'll be more 50/50.

oldguystudent · September 19, 2013

My History degree days were all about coffee, cigarettes, and pale skinned girls with dyed black hair and nose rings (and kids, lemme tell you. Still got fond memories of those girls. Good lord!)

My Business degree days were all about sports, starting salaries, and presenting one's self as a commodity to major firms.

The two cultures couldn't have been more different, and neither one of them is ever going to budge.

TIgreen01 · September 19, 2013

As far as I know this is the FIRST time our University has even gone on record of having expectations. That alone should make you at least a little happy.

I don't agree. I'd rather they NOT post written expectations if this is what they truly are. There is no other way to sugar coat it, other than to say that these are half-ass expectations. Are they fair, though? Yeah, probably.

Listen, these expectations should not be a surprise to anyone who has followed along with the business of college athletics and seen the studies that correlate $$ spent to success rates. UNT's administration has made it clear all along what their expectations are. But stating such mediocre goals in plain English for all the world to see opens the door for these goals to be used against us (ie: recruiting donors, athletes, coaches, etc). The writing was always on the wall, but you had to at least decode it before now.

Edited September 19, 2013 by TIgreen01

PlummMeanGreen · September 19, 2013

I know that 8 years of losing begats much of what we post on this message board. I've contributed enough of my own tommyrot on GMG.com of which many of those I wish I could walk back, but are there not several things which suggests we are moving forward?

(1) .Apogee Stadium? I mean, uh....WOW! I looked on it with amazement just last Game Day.

(2) All the new improvements at the Super Pit (with more planned as I understand it---maybe even a new sound system),

(3) Might even the Pedestrian Bridge (to some extent) count, too, since it connects all the good things happening at the Mean Green Village to the rest of campus (and to east Denton for that matter)?

(4) A new varsity baseball team and stadium on the way with half the monies already raised for that new stadium;

(5) I know this is not good enough for some, but in only Year 3 considering so few players on scholarships what Coach Mac is doing with this team even Dave Campbell's staff are now observing AND admiring; for certain, the jury is still out for the balance of the 2013 season but I think even the most Negative Neds among us were smiling post Ball State game results;

(6) A new luxury hotel and convention center not planned for anywhere else except inside the Mean Green Village right next to Apogee Stadium? Where else among the entire G5 is this kind of stuff happening now?

(7) ?????.......................you name the ones I've left out because I bet I have.

Yes, the budget probably needs more tweaking since what we have (to quote another) is hardly set in stone, but will not "OUR" alma mater soon be catapulted to the upper half of CUSA schools (even over some of its charter members) when that would not have been the case if Lane Rawlins, Rick Villarreal and the BOR's hadn't put their heads together with what I think will be the first of many meetings on the UNT Athletic budget?

Just look at our last 25 to 30 years concerning MG athletics and tell me the present group are not making positive headway as to change all those years which had so few bright spots and which BTW..............they had nothing to do with since most were no where close to Denton during this timeline? Other side of that coin is.................most of us were all here.

Yes, we want more but from all indications we are going to get more but probably not in the timeline we would all like (as in yesterday); but at least they are giving all this the good ol' college try and we are seeing more results now than for most of the last 25 or 30 years (basically my entire adult years post my UNT graduation) and once again I start with the very proof of what I am posting here as seen below in the video:

Edited September 19, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

KingDL1 · September 19, 2013

You're comparing Harvard, Oxford, MIT, UT, and UNT....don't you think that's a bit extreme comparison.

And for anybody that doesn't think athletics does not add to the image and profile of a university is delusional. Winning and commitment to athletics gets people interested and that is how you start building your fan base. You build your fan base and you'll have more people come to games and you'll have a more prideful student body and alumni base. With that they'll be much more prone to giving more back not only to athletics but the school. The correlation is there. There's a reason A&M raised that much money. When TX was the NC in 2006 their applications multiplied the following year, the money was greater. Same with OU when they won the NC in 2000, the level of giving astronomically increased after that.

Obviously I'm not saying our teams have to win national championships to obtain this but athletics is a HUGE aspect of a large public university in the United States. It is what it is...that's just the reality. You not wanting to become a Texas or Alabama is exactly what the problem is with the UNT DNA. If we're not going to fight to strive higher then we'll always be little ol' North Texas.

As for the givers I certainly believe there is a mutual partnership between the BOR, alumni/donors, and students. We're lagging in every area it appears but it all starts from the top. If the BOR is broken then everything trickling down will be broken as well. While we have made strides the last decade, bear in mind that all we've done is to finally get back to the break even line and right above water. We were so bad and such a laughing stock that it was almost as if it couldn't get any worse.

Sorry for the longer post but I am in agreement with 90 for the most part. Yes there's been some strides but the school needs to be fighting to do a lot more. There's no reason why we can't be better. I just don't want to be in the top half of anything. I want to be the best and especially in CUSA, there is no reason why we can't be the leader of the pack and setting the standards at this point.

Great post and reminder!

We are big a university what 50% larger than the size of OU (had a total Fall 2013 enrollment of 23,944) and it has been proven that successful athletics ties the Alumni back to the University and this equates to more and higher donations across all areas. North Texas can have a big time athletic program, such a program helps the entire University build endowments significantly.

The University of North Texas set an enrollment record for fall 2013 with 36,221 students, an increase of 385 compared to the fall 2012’s unofficial headcount at the fall census date (12th day of classes).

http://www.ntxe-news.com/artman/publish/article_85358.shtml

Edited September 19, 2013 by KingDL1

greenit · September 19, 2013

So we have been to something like 6 bowl games in 100 years and when we now publish that we expect to go to bowls at least every other year, that is somehow too low of a goal?

Green Mean · September 19, 2013

I don't want UNT to be Texas. At all. UNT never will be, you can just accept that. We are the liberal art public college in Texas...which means we won't ever have a 100,000 seat stadium. I had a friend who came to UNT wanting to major in art. He came here because football isn't very important and we have the best fine arts school in the state. I could care less if only 1/3rd of the student body attended football games. I just want us to win and to have acceptable attendance. But that subset of students will always be here because the people (a good majority, not all) who major in Music, Fine Arts, Liberal Arts, etc won't support sports. This is just how this school is viewed among the state by young kids.
That'll never go away. We should aim to emulate UH or Boise. 30K attendance consistently.
Also, Mac won't be going anywhere. He's from the old mentality of loyalty. Like it or not, Mac will be here until he retires. You think other schools weren't throwing money at him at Iowa State?
If UNT ever somehow became like UT or even Tech, UNT and Denton both would lose what attracts a good percentage of people to it. UNT and Denton is weird. Not weird in an Austin way, actually weird. I didn't attend A&M or Tech for a reason. (Can't get into UT unless you're top 10 percent.)

We should strive to be the best. If we're not going to strive to be the best then we need to rethink athletics at the highest level then. Boise State sells out their stadium and if I recall there are plans for major expansion. I doubt you'll have hear their administration say they strive to be just in the top half of their conference peers. Houston actually spends...not only they're building a new stadium but if I am not mistaken they were paying Sumlin about a million plus in annual salary.

And the liberal arts school argument not liking athletics is such garbage. If business students were any better our attendance wouldn't be joke.. It's like people saying hockey can and will never work in Texas because...well we're in Texas. That's such an awful argument. That is just a built in excuse. Give students a reason to come to the games and care. If you do that then they will come.

I seriously cannot believe this is coming from our fans of not striving to be the best and striving to compete with the bigger and big boys. That is the reason why North Texas is North Texas today.

Green Mean · September 19, 2013

So we have been to something like 6 bowl games in 100 years and when we now publish that we expect to go to bowls at least every other year, that is somehow too low of a goal?

These days a .500 record is all you need to go bowling so I would think going to a bowl game AT LEAST every other year should be the obvious.

UNT90 · September 19, 2013

So we have been to something like 6 bowl games in 100 years and when we now publish that we expect to go to bowls at least every other year, that is somehow too low of a goal?

That wasn't what was stated by the BOR...

AT ALL...

A 4-4 conference record can get you in the top half of conference, technically, but a 1-3 OOC record gets you a 5-7 record and a "hey, we met expectations" from the BOR and AD.

Edited September 19, 2013 by UNT90