Official Attendance...

[UNTLifer]

TCU's sellout for that Utah game was due to it being a big game, their big success up to that point, and the fact that they had a big city to market them to without much competition. Remember a couple of things about TCU: First, its not very big, but they have a lot of money in Ft. Worth and the citizenry love it being their hometown team, especially their Chamber of Commerce in FW. Secondly, and this cannot be understated, but Denton has GREAT high school football, while FW has the worst football teams of any big city in the state (and its not even close). I'm not sure that FW has had a team go to a state championship game in the last 50 years. Denton loves its high school football and they support it big time, so that takes away from the university just a bit. TCU has no competition for dollars or time from the local HS teams in FW, unlike us. Whether it was old Denton High, Ryan High, or now Guyer High, Denton has a very strong pedigree of high school football success over the last 40 years.

I was with you until you said Denton loves its high school football. Denton does, but they don't support it unless one of their kid's is playing. Sad but true considering the years of success Denton HS football has experienced.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Good post, untjim1995.

Yet Norh Texas does have more directly tied to its constituency; that is, a projected to keep growing enrollment plus over 200K UNT alums in DFW than TCU will ever have and to me that is much more a plus than a negative. TCU has to literally convert many to their constituency and fan base but they've done a good job of it, yet it was their finally winning which made much of what they've done in this millineum possible. One can only imagine how great (and fun) it will be when UNT gets back to its winning ways.

Like you, untjim1995, I have also been a keen TCU observer post-SWC implosion because (quite frankly) I really wanted to see how they handled getting kicked out of Big Time football. It was easy to see at the time that TCU was doing a much better job at it than their other former SWC mates.

I lived in Fort Worth from 1977 till about 1995 and had many friends connected to TCU so I heard first-hand from many Horned Frogs of their post-SWC dilemma. Many of them blamed ex TCU Prez' Tucker(?) along with (then) TCU AD Frank Windegger for what they felt was their dragging of their feet to turn loose much of their enourmous endowment and in getting TCU involved with the athletic venues arms race that had been going on everywhere except Berry and University Steets, Cowtown. . One TCU alum told me had they done as AD Grant Teaff at Baylor had been doing with BU's facilities several years before the SWC broke up, that it may have been TCU getting an invite to the Big 12 over Baylor. That, of course, could be debated since Ann Richards and Bob Bullock down in Austin took care of their alma mater down in Waco.

Yes. I do remember TCU doing all of this below in bold from your post and admired their pro-activity in doing such. They most definitely had a plan to recover from not being invited to the new Big 12: This from your post:

"They created the "Group of 100", who were among the biggest civic and commerce leaders in FW and asked for their help in getting TCU rebranded and making a connection to the town. So they came up with a slogan "Your Hometown Team", marketed heavily toward getting youth to games in the end zone, had businesses buy season tickets to give to their employees and clients."

Seems much of the above laid the foundation for them to eventually get a Big 12 invite but fact remains, they could not get it all done based merely on their small enrollment and small state of Texas and FW area alumnus base.

North Texas could do so much more with its enormous DFW based UNT constituency and then getting Denton County citizens (almost 800K strong) involved would merely be icing on the cake and cause for Apogee Stadium expansion plans.

What has been a way too long missing ingrediant of winning football seasons will make our road to success so much easier, too.

GMG!

Addendum: Anyone else ever think that had North Texas had similar success winning and drawing fans as East Caroline U did the last 30 years that it could have very well been our alma mater who would get a Big 12 invite; maybe even over TCU? Think about it.

GMG!

Edited September 4, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[untjim1995]

Good post, untjim1995.

Yet Norh Texas does have more directly tied to its constituency; that is, a projected to keep growing enrollment plus over 200K UNT alums in DFW than TCU will ever have and to me that is much more a plus than a negative. TCU has to literally convert many to their constituency and fan base but they've done a good job of it, yet it was their finally winning which made much of what they've done in this millineum possible. One can only imagine how great (and fun) it will be when UNT gets back to its winning ways.

Like you, untjim1995, I have also been a keen TCU observer post-SWC implosion because (quite frankly) I really wanted to see how they handled getting kicked out of Big Time football. It was easy to see at the time that TCU was doing a much better job at it than their other former SWC mates.

I lived in Fort Worth from 1977 till about 1995 and had many friends connected to TCU so I heard first-hand from many Horned Frogs of their post-SWC dilemma. Many of them blamed ex TCU Prez' Tucker(?) along with (then) TCU AD Frank Windegger for what they felt was their dragging of their feet to turn loose much of their enourmous endowment and in getting TCU involved with the athletic venues arms race that had been going on everywhere except Berry and University Steets, Cowtown. . One TCU alum told me had they done as AD Grant Teaff at Baylor had been doing with BU's facilities several years before the SWC broke up, that it may have been TCU getting an invite to the Big 12 over Baylor. That, of course, could be debated since Ann Richards and Bob Bullock down in Austin took care of their alma mater down in Waco.

Yes. I do remember TCU doing all of this below in bold from your post and admired their pro-activity in doing such. They most definitely had a plan to recover from not being invited to the new Big 12: This from your post:

"They created the "Group of 100", who were among the biggest civic and commerce leaders in FW and asked for their help in getting TCU rebranded and making a connection to the town. So they came up with a slogan "Your Hometown Team", marketed heavily toward getting youth to games in the end zone, had businesses buy season tickets to give to their employees and clients."

Seems much of the above laid the foundation for them to eventually get a Big 12 invite but fact remains, they could not get it all done based merely on their small enrollment and small state of Texas and FW area alumnus base.

North Texas could do so much more with its enormous DFW based UNT constituency and then getting Denton County citizens (almost 800K strong) involved would merely be icing on the cake and cause for Apogee Stadium expansion plans.

What has been a way too long missing ingrediant of winning football seasons will make our road to success so much easier, too.

GMG!

Addendum: Anyone else ever think that had North Texas had similar success winning and drawing fans as East Caroline U did the last 30 years that it could have very well been our alma mater who would get a Big 12 invite; maybe even over TCU? Think about it.

GMG!

ECU is a another great example for us to emulate, as was the old Southern Miss program that is now in the dumps. We can be them or better if we win. Just don't expect any of those other non-CUSA Texas schools to play us anytime soon if that happens, including $MU, who won't blink at any buyout that can be made if we are better than them and win the first few games in our scheduled series.

[TheFranchise]

TCU's sellout for that Utah game was due to it being a big game, their big success up to that point, and the fact that they had a big city to market them to without much competition. Remember a couple of things about TCU: First, its not very big, but they have a lot of money in Ft. Worth and the citizenry love it being their hometown team, especially their Chamber of Commerce in FW. Secondly, and this cannot be understated, but Denton has GREAT high school football, while FW has the worst football teams of any big city in the state (and its not even close). I'm not sure that FW has had a team go to a state championship game in the last 50 years. Denton loves its high school football and they support it big time, so that takes away from the university just a bit. TCU has no competition for dollars or time from the local HS teams in FW, unlike us. Whether it was old Denton High, Ryan High, or now Guyer High, Denton has a very strong pedigree of high school football success over the last 40 years.

I dunno man. I'm as big of a high school football fan as there is out there, and if my wife would either be cool with me going or was interested in tagging along, I'd catch my Trinity Trojans on Friday night and then the Mean Green on Saturday as well. I know a LOT of D/FW high school football fans like to make it to college and high school games in the same weekend. My love for high school football has never kept me from making it out to a college game that same weekend. In fact, if I had to choose between the two, I'd still take the college game over high school. But maybe that's just me.

[untjim1995]

I dunno man. I'm as big of a high school football fan as there is out there, and if my wife would either be cool with me going or was interested in tagging along, I'd catch my Trinity Trojans on Friday night and then the Mean Green on Saturday as well. I know a LOT of D/FW high school football fans like to make it to college and high school games in the same weekend. My love for high school football has never kept me from making it out to a college game that same weekend. In fact, if I had to choose between the two, I'd still take the college game over high school. But maybe that's just me.

Expenses in these times do matter to a lot of households. A choice often does have to get made. Sure, in Euless where Trinity has been awesome, you'll see lots of people at a game on Friday night. Not in FW, where the high school teams are really bad at football.

[FirefightnRick]

Expenses in these times do matter to a lot of households. A choice often does have to get made. Sure, in Euless where Trinity has been awesome, you'll see lots of people at a game on Friday night. Not in FW, where the high school teams are really bad at football.

Just so I can claim I predicted it here first, keep your eye on Brewer High School in a few years. No, they are not an FWISD school but until they opened their new campus they were inside loop 820. But mark it down, they will make progress soon.

Rick

[ColoradoEagle]

Regarding TCU attendance:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/497683-tcu-sells-out-for-air-force-are-tcus-attendance-woes-over

In 2005, in spite of its top-10 finish and 11-1 season, TCU only averaged 31,254 at home. Again, in 2008, TCU finished at No. 7 in the polls and averaged just 30,389 (although that number was greatly decreased due to rescheduled game which took place during a hurricane).

From 2005 to 2008, TCU averaged just 30,897 fans per home game.

We haven't had a winning record in eight years, yet we still managed 19k last year. We just had 22k at one of the hottest games in recent memory, and probably would have been a good 3-4k more if the temps had been the same as they were throughout most of August.

I don't buy the argument that people in Fort Worth have nothing better to do, so they go to TCU games or that FW has been this huge TCU supporter earlier than 2010. The Rose Bowl win and move to the Big XII created a lot of fans, and their attendance has shot up since those.

I did a double header back in '09 and went to Colorado State @ TCU and then FAU @ NT that night. TCU had maybe 30k in the stands. NT had 23k. I don't think I need to remind anyone where we were success-wise. TCU was ranked in the top 15 that day.

Can't really say what kind of attachment FW has for TCU now, but it will be interesting to see what happens when they have a couple bad years.

[TheFranchise]

Regarding TCU attendance:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/497683-tcu-sells-out-for-air-force-are-tcus-attendance-woes-over

We haven't had a winning record in eight years, yet we still managed 19k last year. We just had 22k at one of the hottest games in recent memory, and probably would have been a good 3-4k more if the temps had been the same as they were throughout most of August.

I don't buy the argument that people in Fort Worth have nothing better to do, so they go to TCU games or that FW has been this huge TCU supporter earlier than 2010. The Rose Bowl win and move to the Big XII created a lot of fans, and their attendance has shot up since those.

I did a double header back in '09 and went to Colorado State @ TCU and then FAU @ NT that night. TCU had maybe 30k in the stands. NT had 23k. I don't think I need to remind anyone where we were success-wise. TCU was ranked in the top 15 that day.

Can't really say what kind of attachment FW has for TCU now, but it will be interesting to see what happens when they have a couple bad years.

Exactly my point, sir. How good or bad the high school football teams in the area are/were, while it may contribute a tiny bit, has nothing really to do with anything.

I mean, they had LaDanian Freaking Tomlinson playing there in the late 90's and still couldn't get butts in the seats. I grew up as a TCU fan and was big-time into them during his years, but he'd score a TD and you could hear crickets at AGCS.

[PlummMeanGreen]

"TCU has also planned for a possible expansion to 50,000 should the need arise." (Its funny to read in all these new stadiums or stadium re-dos as far as how much larger the next possible expansion could be).

What do you mean, TCU, should the need arise as a Big 12 school member for just a, uh, 50,000 seat stadium?

For a Big 12 school TCU's expansion 2 years ago should have started at 50,000 and the number "60,000" be put in place of the 50,000 as in the above italicized quote from the article

Interpretation or possible moral of story? TCU has no idea if the Big 12 is going to be a keeper for the true

Big Boys who are presently in it? Just get this months Texas Monthly with "Johnny Football's" caricature

on the front cover and read how "UT, OU, etc, etc, etc, " are looking at TAMU's rise

in the SEC." (or words to that effect). And all this while they go play schools in much smaller stadiums of 40K to 50K. The Big 12 Big Boy schools I predict will one day want something (or a conference) like TAMU now has. Some have said the PAC 12 would still be interested in UT and OU and a big hunk of the Southwest TV market that comes with those 2 schools.

Coach Fry left UNT (among other reasons) because he wanted to go coach in front of larger audiences which a Big 10 job would allow him and all his UNT assistant coaches that he took with him such an opportunity. He did not get those kind of audience at SMU or UNT as he would in Hawkeye Country. Some of you would also remember Fry's quote that "I always wanted to coach at a school that had "University of" at the beginning of its name." (While at SMU, Fry's Mustangs actually played a highly ranked Navy that would play UT for an NCAA N.C. that same season. Of course, Navy had a QB named Staubach and that game was played before a terrible crowd of approx. 20,000 on a Friday night. I think it was a UT/OU weekend or the Cotton Bowl Stadium already had a planned Saturday game. BTW, SMU won that game against the Staubach-led Naval Academy. Seems those 2 play this weekend at Ford Stadium, right?

Before he took the Iowa job, Fry was said to have been in total awe as to how Hawkeye fans had sold out its Kinnick Stadium year after year after year without even having one winning football season in almost 2 decades. (And look at us after "ONLY" 8 losing seasons in a row). Yet word came back to many of us back in that day that it was U of Iowa's impressive attendance and undying fan support which hooked Fry into taking that Big 10 job.

TCU's Coach Patterson will one day want to coach before much larger audiences than Amon Carter Stadium will ever allow. It's just in any upwardly bound coaches DNA to want to coach before audiences of 70K, 80K and now over 100K.

As Dallas Green once related to me the story that at Fry's first introduction ever to Iowa fans at a Hawkeye basketball game all ol' Hay' Boy said was "We'll Win" and those 2 words alone brought the house down.

We've been running in motion for much too long in MG Country, but I feel we are now on the cusp of finally getting out of that mode and moving both upward and forward. We really had to have a new football stadium like Apogee Stadium to have any chance of getting out of that standstill mode, too. We do have a nice college football stadium, folks, and one I'm sure can be easily expanded to 50,000 should the need arise. ​

Edited September 5, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[untjim1995]

"TCU has also planned for a possible expansion to 50,000 should the need arise." (Its funny to read in all these new stadiums or stadium re-dos as far as how much larger the next possible expansion could be).

What do you mean, TCU, should the need arise as a Big 12 school member for just a, uh, 50,000 seat stadium?

For a Big 12 school TCU's expansion 2 years ago should have started at 50,000 and the number "60,000" be put in place of the 50,000 as in the above italicized quote from the article

Interpretation or possible moral of story? TCU has no idea if the Big 12 is going to be a keeper for the true

Big Boys who are presently in it? Just get this months Texas Monthly with "Johnny Football's" caricature

on the front cover and read how "UT, OU, etc, etc, etc, " are looking at TAMU's rise

in the SEC." (or words to that effect). And all this while they go play schools in much smaller stadiums of 40K to 50K. The Big 12 Big Boy schools I predict will one day want something (or a conference) like TAMU now has. Some have said the PAC 12 would still be interested in UT and OU and a big hunk of the Southwest TV market that comes with those 2 schools.

Coach Fry left UNT (among other reasons) because he wanted to go coach in front of larger audiences which a Big 10 job would allow him and all his UNT assistant coaches that he took with him such an opportunity. He did not get those kind of audience at SMU or UNT as he would in Hawkeye Country. Some of you would also remember Fry's quote that "I always wanted to coach at a school that had "University of" at the beginning of its name." (While at SMU, Fry's Mustangs actually played a highly ranked Navy that would play UT for an NCAA N.C. that same season. Of course, Navy had a QB named Staubach and that game was played before a terrible crowd of approx. 20,000 on a Friday night. I think it was a UT/OU weekend or the Cotton Bowl Stadium already had a planned Saturday game. BTW, SMU won that game against the Staubach-led Naval Academy. Seems those 2 play this weekend at Ford Stadium, right?

Before he took the Iowa job, Fry was said to have been in total awe as to how Hawkeye fans had sold out its Kinnick Stadium year after year after year without even having one winning football season in almost 2 decades. (And look at us after "ONLY" 8 losing seasons in a row). Yet word came back to many of us back in that day that it was U of Iowa's impressive attendance and undying fan support which hooked Fry into taking that Big 10 job.

TCU's Coach Patterson will one day want to coach before much larger audiences than Amon Carter Stadium will ever allow. It's just in any upwardly bound coaches DNA to want to coach before audiences of 70K, 80K and now over 100K.

As Dallas Green once related to me the story that at Fry's first introduction ever to Iowa fans at a Hawkeye basketball game all ol' Hay' Boy said was "We'll Win" and those 2 words alone brought the house down.

We've been running in motion for much too long in MG Country, but I feel we are now on the cusp of finally getting out of that mode and moving both upward and forward. We really had to have a new football stadium like Apogee Stadium to have any chance of getting out of that standstill mode, too. We do have a nice college football stadium, folks, and one I'm sure can be easily expanded to 50,000 should the need arise. ​

PMG--I totally agree with you on the Big XII's instability. They are clearly the 5th best AQ league right now. They have the smallest footprint of any conference for TV and have the smallest collection of teams (10). Texas A&Ms rise to power has rather violently shaken the state's recruiting to the Aggies way, as well as the media spotlight. Sure, UT will still get theirs, but they are losing battles left and right to A&M right now and OU is being completely locked out of the annual raids on TX HS talent that always went north of the Red River. There is too much money and pride at those two institutions to let this stand for too long. NOw, if A&M falls apart like so many of us imagined it would when they joined the SEC, that would be different. But the Aggies have the coach and the conference that a lot of HS recruits want to play for and in right now.

The biggest advantage a school like TCU (and Baylor) has is that Texas' LHN is kryptonite to other conferences right now. But eventually, Texas is going to do one of three things: 1.) Dump the LHN and tell other conferences that they are open for admission--this is how they get into the Big Ten. 2.) Modify the LHN--use it as a regional TV network with a new name and have the Sooners, Cowboys, and Red Raiders move to the Pac-12. They keep their ESPN money from the original contract and move forward. 3.) Keep it and watch Texas football fall back to its 80s and 90s SWC days, where the other powers around them just blow by and leave them in continued mediocrity, but they stay in the Big XII with the other schools. To me, scenario 3 is the least sustainable for long-term success for UT, but the only prayer that Baylor and TCU have to stay as AQ members. The lawsuits from thsoe two schools will be flying fast if UT ever leaves, especially after each school's stadium investments of recent note in Waco and Ft. Worth. But, as long as UT can carry Tech with them, the lawsuits can be overcome. Its why I think sceanrio 2 is most likely, The Big Ten has made it abundantly clear that Tech has no chance of joining that league with its infamous "Tech Problem" email that Jim Delany sent to UT back in 2010. The Pac doesn't want them either, but they will take them to get Texas. Its the same thing with OU--The Pac, the B1G, the SEC all want OU, but they don't want OSU. But those two appear to be legislatively tied together, so they cannot be separated. When the Pac negotiations were getting hot and heavey, I'll never forget when the Pac-12 commissioner came out and said that they were ready to expand, in part because of Texas' LHN and some trust issues. Well, Texas (and Tech) went back home, but the OU president stayed behind and basically said to the Pac-12, "Hey, we are still very interested in joining your league!!", only to have the PAC commissioner bascially say back to them, "We wanted you when we thought we had Texas. We sure aren't taking you and your orange-headed stepbrother (OSU)." And back to Okie Land they went...

Texas, right now, is the hot girl that everyone knows is hot, but she is also high-maintenance crazy. And she has a gaggle of friends, some of whom are hot in their own way (OU and KU), one that is her sibling (Tech), and some others of whom are just monied (BU, TCU, and OSU). Yeah, you may get to know her, but as time goes on, her attitude just makes the beauty less attractive, and it makes the others around her appear to be worse, too. To make this UNT related, WHEN the Big XII finally does implode, the bottom run teams of that league are going to be looking for homes to land in, some of whom aren't gonna like being non-AQ anymore. And when it happens, its gonna be seismic--the MWC, AAC, CUSA, and the SBC are going to feel the tidal wave of it all again. And, its my hope that we will (finally) be at a place to be a chooser instead of a beggar when this all happens. My guess is that it will be in less than 5 years. The big schools of the Big XII will find a way around that GOR they signed until 2025 to make the moves they wish to make.