Official Attendance...

[H-towngreen]

Yessir!

Rick

I am loving me some Kseniya Bardabush

[Rudy]

Many ex Talons have tried to reach out to them over the past few years. The issue is that the organization become solely a social one shortly after Emmitt left and they cut off the alumni who USED to ahve a voice. Now, it seems that if they are trying to improve, they don't know what to do.

[jdennis82]

FFR & others,

I certainly commend your commitment and sacrifices made in efforts to promote all the athletic programs of our shared university. I would never intend to communicate otherwise. Honestly, it should (and does) serve as motivation for the rest of us.

Please don't take comments of mine as a personal offense toward a specific post or person because I certainly don't take the time to read every post made on the board (and often it's the longer one's I skip).

I'll try to avoid generalizations to avoid such confusion going forward.

[MeanGreenTexan]

I don't doubt that number at all. I actually would have guessed a little higher. The alumni side was pretty full. My section was really full. Looked like lots of students came over to the alumni side to escape the sun.

[laxtonto]

I do have to ask why so many in the alumni side got up and left after the presentation on the all century team.. It was pretty strange watching everyone file out after the presentation and then realize half way through the 3rd that most of them did not come back... It was even funnier catching a dean of one of the colleges getting busted for sitting in someone elses seats..

If we are going to make whipping boys out of the students, lets also take the alumni side to task for leaving at the half.

[emmitt01]

I consider the efforts to build a new stadium, build a new athletic complex, hire a new coaching staff, join a new conference, get our team featured on new TV show about our team, etc... all part of an overall effort to increase interest in our program.

It feels like it is working to me. Maybe not as fast as I would like, but it feels like things are slowly moving in the right direction.

Please tell me, which of these things lets people know when the next home game is?

Which one attempts to paint the city of Denton green (ALUMNI shouldn't be going business to business to put up schedule posters...we pay a promotions dept)?

Which of the things you mentioned reach out to the community and try to take the first step in establishing that relationship? Which of the buildings that we've erected appeals to the ticket buyer who isn't ALREADY in the fan base (I hear people weekly if not daily tell me "that's a beautiful stadium ya'll built, I need to make it out there some day")? What are we doing to turn "some day" into "today". anyone who has ever been in sales will tell you that "that sounds like a great deal...let me go home and talk to my wife" is kiss of death. We aren't doing anything to gain commitments. We are experts at North Texas at catering to the die hards...piss poor at drawing in the outliers.

Which of the things you mentioned was supposed to keep my good friend (a 12 year season ticket holder) in the four season tickets on the 50 yard line that he vacated? Which one of the. Is meant to combat the fact that he tells me that SMU (a school he has no relationship with) makes him feel more included than McCarney's program? Maybe he's just a quitter, or not dedicated enough, except that the former player who volunteered to call him (and other season ticket holders who aren't re-upping) told him "we're hearing that a lot" when he explained why he's not coming back.

Don't believe me? My father-in-law (who has a NT fanatic son-in-law, NT grad daughter, NT brainwashed grand-daughter) asked me today as we sat by the pool "You guys aren't still in the Sun Belt?"

Why isn't scrappy at the high school, junior high and elementary school pep rallies?

Why don't kids who make the "A honor roll" get a free ticket to a home game and a free hot dog and coke? Why doesn't Scrappy go to their school to hand them out? Call them "Scrappy's Scholars" and draw their moms and dads in...plus, show that North Texas cares about their academic excellence.

When we march through downtown on the morning of the Homecoming game why don't we throw out vouchers for "buy one get one free" tickets? Because we sell out so often? Because free wing zone tickets wouldn't draw in apparel and concession buying customers? And what if not a single one of those vouchers is redeemed? We're out the price of colored paper and we can say we tried.

No, building stadiums, joining CUSA and having a TV show is not a sign of a progressive and active promotions department. It's Christmas presents for the fan base that already exists and a perk of Fox Sports and CUSA having a prior relationship. We CAN and SHOULD do better. Or, we can keep pretending that winning is the only thing that SMU, TCU and even UTSA is doing better than us when it comes to growing a fan base.

Edited September 1, 2013 by emmitt01

[ColoradoEagle]

Emmitt should have long ago replaced Paul Batchelder. The fact that he still has a job at NT to me is amazing but not surprising, if that makes sense.

And yes, the joke about Talons is that a decade or more ago they stopped being about tradition. Rick and Emmitt are what the Talons used to be. Now it's just a runner-up prize for sorority rejects.

[ragpicker]

It's not the attendance or lack thereof that irks me. People will have rheir reasons. It's the laissez faire attitude of our promotions department that boils my blood. If we put on the full court press to promote our games, and THEN the fans came up with reasons to stay home, I'd adopt the prevalent "oh well, that's life" outlook.

I agree GoMeanGreen.comAddict. Not having a sell out for our first game at Apoggee with a new coach, and playing Houston was very disappointing. I will always think we could have done more to fill the stadium that night. I know I am a broken record on this, but we need to get our Dallas alumni on the "A" Train. That train is an untapped resource for UNT athletics and other events. It is baffling to me as to why we have not promoted it.

[NT03]

Want a sell out ? Make a bowl this season & start out next year at home vs Grambling or PVA&M

I'd guarantee we get 27K + ... GUARANTEE !!!

Edited September 2, 2013 by NT03

[All About UNT]

By the way.... I sit by DT's family and his grandparents are at most games. Great people and it's awesome to sit by them watching their grandson have games like he did against Idaho. His Grandfather brings a respirator to the games and I was shocked to see him stick out the heatwave yesterday. And......both Grandparents graduated from Idaho btw. Had fun heckling them about that.

[risinggreen]

By the way.... I sit by DT's family and his grandparents are at most games. Great people and awesome to sit by them watching their grandson have games like he did against Idaho. His Grandfather brings a respirator to the games and I was shocked to see him stick out the heatwave yesterday. And......both Grandparents graduated from Idaho btw. Had fun heckling them about that.

That's one heck of a coincidence. I'm surprised that two people from Glen Rose period, would be Idaho graduates. I'm making the big assumption that they live in Glen Rose of course.

[untjim1995]

SMU and TCU while in the SWC had to have significant numbers of visiting traveling fans to have anywhere close to decent attendance figures for schools that had been in a major conference all those decades.

What attendance we do get at North Texas 99% of the time are mostly all "OUR" fans.

Again, had Texas Tech been our opponent last night we would have had 35,000 at Apogee. Amazing how

that "traveling fans" formula works, now isn't it?

Honestly? After 8 losing seasons in a row, I'll gladly take a 22,000 Mean Green fan base to build onto once the real winning begins. I want to see

the day when all 31,000 plus fans at Apogee are all wearing green and we have to tell opponents officials...

"sorry, but we don't have enough tickets for your fans" albeit we know by NCAA decree that we are supposed to reserve a certain

number of those for visiting schools.

I'm beginning to feel about this football program the way I did in 1975 as a UNT student when Hayden Fry and his Mean Green were making some real hay in the NCAA and others in our neighborhood were not (and were just as hesitant to schedule quality Mean Green football teams during that era, too).

I read this argument a lot about SMU and TCU benefitting from their scheduling of big time schools to pad their attendance. Here's the thing, those two schools probably have around 1/4 of our students. They should never be able to outdraw us, even when they get Tech in town while we play Idaho. Our numbers should be able to take care of this argument on its own. But, alas, it never has because we hated athletics for decades and now that we care about it at a decent level, we are losing or we are playing teams that nobody really cares about. A team like Tech will play SMU now because their alums in Dallas want them playing SMU instead of us. A loss to SMU doesn't sting anything like another loss to UNT. That's part of why we cannot get anyone of decent name recognition to play here in Denton--because their fans think a loss to us is unacceptable. It's why I suspect that we will continue to see the same low level names for our OOC games in Denton. I hate it, but Tech and Baylor and TCU can play other teams in Texas in OOC play that don't hurt their reputations severely if they lose to us. UTSA, Texas State, UH, Rice, and UTEP will continue to get those series over us until playing us actually helps the Big XII type team with everything.

GMG

[PlummMeanGreen]

I read this argument a lot about SMU and TCU benefitting from their scheduling of big time schools to pad their attendance. Here's the thing, those two schools probably have around 1/4 of our students. They should never be able to outdraw us, even when they get Tech in town while we play Idaho. Our numbers should be able to take care of this argument on its own. But, alas, it never has because we hated athletics for decades and now that we care about it at a decent level, we are losing or we are playing teams that nobody really cares about. A team like Tech will play SMU now because their alums in Dallas want them playing SMU instead of us. A loss to SMU doesn't sting anything like another loss to UNT. That's part of why we cannot get anyone of decent name recognition to play here in Denton--because their fans think a loss to us is unacceptable. It's why I suspect that we will continue to see the same low level names for our OOC games in Denton. I hate it, but Tech and Baylor and TCU can play other teams in Texas in OOC play that don't hurt their reputations severely if they lose to us. UTSA, Texas State, UH, Rice, and UTEP will continue to get those series over us until playing us actually helps the Big XII type team with everything.

GMG

Thing about it is that you have to ask those schools for a game to first get a yes or no.

As I look at our history of schools that have come to Denton I don't concur with all of your

theory.

Also, UNT's program does not live or die on getting other Texas-based schools to Apogee; after all, we've also

had Oregon State, Florida State, Navy, Indiana, Houston, Kansas State, San Diego State (last ranked team to play in Denton) and others similar who have said "yes" to come to our place with many of those schools that actually have higher profiles than 2'nd division Big 12 Texas-based schools. Don't we have a 12 game home and home with SMU beginning next year, too?

GMG!

Edited September 2, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[eulessismore]

By the way.... I sit by DT's family and his grandparents are at most games. Great people and awesome to sit by them watching their grandson have games like he did against Idaho. His Grandfather brings a respirator to the games and I was shocked to see him stick out the heatwave yesterday. And......both Grandparents graduated from Idaho btw. Had fun heckling them about that.

Very cool the Grandparents from Idaho; Derek reminds me of that work ethic they have up there in that extension of Mormon country.

[Dr. Seuss]

Thing about it is that you have to ask those schools for a game to first get a yes or no.

As I look at our history of schools that have come to Denton I don't concur with all of your

theory.

Also, UNT's program does not live or die on getting other Texas-based schools to Apogee; after all, we've also

had Oregon State, Florida State, Navy, Indiana, Houston, Kansas State, San Diego State (last ranked team to play in Denton) and others similar who have said "yes" to come to our place with many of those schools that actually have higher profiles than 2'nd division Big 12 Texas-based schools. Don't we have a 12 game home and home with SMU beginning next year, too?

GMG!

3 of those teams lost to a FCS team this week....

[untjim1995]

I do have to ask why so many in the alumni side got up and left after the presentation on the all century team.. It was pretty strange watching everyone file out after the presentation and then realize half way through the 3rd that most of them did not come back... It was even funnier catching a dean of one of the colleges getting busted for sitting in someone elses seats..

If we are going to make whipping boys out of the students, lets also take the alumni side to task for leaving at the half.

A lot of fans come to Apogee to watch the band and then leave, especially on the alumni side. Over the years, when I have bought tickets at the door, several times I ahve heard ticket buyers that have bitched to the ticket office worker about the cost of a ticket to just watch the band play at halftime. I guess that is what happens when you have a awesome music school. For me, though, and I know I'm in the minority at UNT, the band isn't a reason why I go to a home football game in Denton.

[bleedgreen4ever]

A lot of fans come to Apogee to watch the band and then leave, especially on the alumni side. Over the years, when I have bought tickets at the door, several times I ahve heard ticket buyers that have bitched to the ticket office worker about the cost of a ticket to just watch the band play at halftime. I guess that is what happens when you have a awesome music school. For me, though, and I know I'm in the minority at UNT, the band isn't a reason why I go to a home football game in Denton.

Yeah, well, as a former music major at UNT, I can confidently say that I do not go to the games to watch the marching band play. It's a nice bonus, if you will, but I go to watch football. Once we start growing this program and changing negative perceptions, more people will be excited to go watch some mean green football. Everything in life is about perception and that's what we need to fight to change so things start going our way. It'll always be an added benefit to have such a great band, but let's pull for the football team being the main attraction that everyone is excited to see.

Edited September 3, 2013 by bleedgreen4ever

[greenit]

Please tell me, which of these things lets people know when the next home game is?

Which one attempts to paint the city of Denton green (ALUMNI shouldn't be going business to business to put up schedule posters...we pay a promotions dept)?

Which of the things you mentioned reach out to the community and try to take the first step in establishing that relationship? Which of the buildings that we've erected appeals to the ticket buyer who isn't ALREADY in the fan base (I hear people weekly if not daily tell me "that's a beautiful stadium ya'll built, I need to make it out there some day")? What are we doing to turn "some day" into "today". anyone who has ever been in sales will tell you that "that sounds like a great deal...let me go home and talk to my wife" is kiss of death. We aren't doing anything to gain commitments. We are experts at North Texas at catering to the die hards...piss poor at drawing in the outliers.

Which of the things you mentioned was supposed to keep my good friend (a 12 year season ticket holder) in the four season tickets on the 50 yard line that he vacated? Which one of the. Is meant to combat the fact that he tells me that SMU (a school he has no relationship with) makes him feel more included than McCarney's program? Maybe he's just a quitter, or not dedicated enough, except that the former player who volunteered to call him (and other season ticket holders who aren't re-upping) told him "we're hearing that a lot" when he explained why he's not coming back.

Don't believe me? My father-in-law (who has a NT fanatic son-in-law, NT grad daughter, NT brainwashed grand-daughter) asked me today as we sat by the pool "You guys aren't still in the Sun Belt?"

Why isn't scrappy at the high school, junior high and elementary school pep rallies?

Why don't kids who make the "A honor roll" get a free ticket to a home game and a free hot dog and coke? Why doesn't Scrappy go to their school to hand them out? Call them "Scrappy's Scholars" and draw their moms and dads in...plus, show that North Texas cares about their academic excellence.

When we march through downtown on the morning of the Homecoming game why don't we throw out vouchers for "buy one get one free" tickets? Because we sell out so often? Because free wing zone tickets wouldn't draw in apparel and concession buying customers? And what if not a single one of those vouchers is redeemed? We're out the price of colored paper and we can say we tried.

No, building stadiums, joining CUSA and having a TV show is not a sign of a progressive and active promotions department. It's Christmas presents for the fan base that already exists and a perk of Fox Sports and CUSA having a prior relationship. We CAN and SHOULD do better. Or, we can keep pretending that winning is the only thing that SMU, TCU and even UTSA is doing better than us when it comes to growing a fan base.

Some damn solid ideas here.

Got to be hungry and take the game to the people.

[TheFranchise]

Food for thought: Everyone keeps bringing up TCU's attendance. You might be interested to know that they didn't have regular sell-outs until the Utah game in 2009.

At the time, ACS had a capacity of 44,000 and had only gotten about 60-75% full regularly until then. It wasn't until they hosted an undefeated Utah that night, that Fort Worth really recognized what they had on their hands. I mean, for crying out loud, they'd flirted with "busting the BCS" a couple of times already and had put up huge winning seasons. But they still only averaged about 31-34k.

My point? Winning a crapload of games and playing a big-time opponent does a lot for attendance. In fact, if I remember correctly, that was about the time that the City of Fort Worth started marketing "purple Fridays" and literally painted the town purple -- even the Trinity River.

Marketing the heck out of this thing certainly doesn't hurt. In fact, Emmitt has excellent ideas to do so. But none of that will compare to what playing big-time college football at Apogee would do. That trumps everything.

On second thought, I guess it all goes hand-in-hand, really, and is all kind of cyclical. Winning gets the fans/students/alumni fired up --> the fans/students/alumni start showing up at games --> the ever-present and loud crowds fire up the players and athletic dept. --> athletic dept. starts putting more into the program --> bigger opponents start coming to Apogee --> The Mean Green start winning big games --> winning gets the fans/students/alumni fired up . . . wash, rinse, repeat . . .

Hopefully that all made sense to someone.

-- Stephen

[PlummMeanGreen]

Food for thought: Everyone keeps bringing up TCU's attendance. You might be interested to know that they didn't have regular sell-outs until the Utah game in 2009.

At the time, ACS had a capacity of 44,000 and had only gotten about 60-75% full regularly until then. It wasn't until they hosted an undefeated Utah that night, that Fort Worth really recognized what they had on their hands. I mean, for crying out loud, they'd flirted with "busting the BCS" a couple of times already and had put up huge winning seasons. But they still only averaged about 31-34k.

My point? Winning a crapload of games and playing a big-time opponent does a lot for attendance. In fact, if I remember correctly, that was about the time that the City of Fort Worth started marketing "purple Fridays" and literally painted the town purple -- even the Trinity River.

Marketing the heck out of this thing certainly doesn't hurt. In fact, Emmitt has excellent ideas to do so. But none of that will compare to what playing big-time college football at Apogee would do. That trumps everything.

On second thought, I guess it all goes hand-in-hand, really, and is all kind of cyclical. Winning gets the fans/students/alumni fired up --> the fans/students/alumni start showing up at games --> the ever-present and loud crowds fire up the players and athletic dept. --> athletic dept. starts putting more into the program --> bigger opponents start coming to Apogee --> The Mean Green start winning big games --> winning gets the fans/students/alumni fired up . . . wash, rinse, repeat . . .

Hopefully that all made sense to someone.

-- Stephen

[UNT90]

Want a sell out ? Make a bowl this season & start out next year at home vs Grambling or PVA&M

I'd guarantee we get 27K + ... GUARANTEE !!!

No.

But, win the next 2 games and then do the near impossible and beat Georgia, follow it with a win at Tulane, and then you sell out Apogee.

This is how much we have to do for a sellout.

[PlummMeanGreen]

North Texas once hosted Texas A & M at Texas Stadium before right at 50,000 fans. So should have North Texas played all our games at Texas Stadium and scheduled more schools like Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, Baylor, Kansas State and other schools who have a nice bevy of traveling fans to make it look like we were one goat ropin' son of a gun college football fan pleaser of a juggernaut?

We could have probably even gotten more fans in the late, great Texas Stadium back in the day had Chicken Express, Golden Chick or Joe's Twice Regurgitated Chickity Doo-Dah had only worked with us in distributing thousands of free tickets, too.

So anyone get my point here; especially those from other schools who frequent this board who need to be the ones who do get that point? North Texas has a great & loyal fan base from which to build onto and I, for one, can't wait to see it grow with even more cash paying customers.

GMG!

PS: I do wish we had more group ticket sales, though; that is, to kids groups and even big kids groups. After all, groups fill stadiums quicker than individuals. I noticed reading their board that Ohio U has a Band Day this Saturday. Hmmmm......

Edited September 4, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[untjim1995]

Food for thought: Everyone keeps bringing up TCU's attendance. You might be interested to know that they didn't have regular sell-outs until the Utah game in 2009.

At the time, ACS had a capacity of 44,000 and had only gotten about 60-75% full regularly until then. It wasn't until they hosted an undefeated Utah that night, that Fort Worth really recognized what they had on their hands. I mean, for crying out loud, they'd flirted with "busting the BCS" a couple of times already and had put up huge winning seasons. But they still only averaged about 31-34k.

My point? Winning a crapload of games and playing a big-time opponent does a lot for attendance. In fact, if I remember correctly, that was about the time that the City of Fort Worth started marketing "purple Fridays" and literally painted the town purple -- even the Trinity River.

Marketing the heck out of this thing certainly doesn't hurt. In fact, Emmitt has excellent ideas to do so. But none of that will compare to what playing big-time college football at Apogee would do. That trumps everything.

On second thought, I guess it all goes hand-in-hand, really, and is all kind of cyclical. Winning gets the fans/students/alumni fired up --> the fans/students/alumni start showing up at games --> the ever-present and loud crowds fire up the players and athletic dept. --> athletic dept. starts putting more into the program --> bigger opponents start coming to Apogee --> The Mean Green start winning big games --> winning gets the fans/students/alumni fired up . . . wash, rinse, repeat . . .

Hopefully that all made sense to someone.

-- Stephen

TCU's sellout for that Utah game was due to it being a big game, their big success up to that point, and the fact that they had a big city to market them to without much competition. Remember a couple of things about TCU: First, its not very big, but they have a lot of money in Ft. Worth and the citizenry love it being their hometown team, especially their Chamber of Commerce in FW. Secondly, and this cannot be understated, but Denton has GREAT high school football, while FW has the worst football teams of any big city in the state (and its not even close). I'm not sure that FW has had a team go to a state championship game in the last 50 years. Denton loves its high school football and they support it big time, so that takes away from the university just a bit. TCU has no competition for dollars or time from the local HS teams in FW, unlike us. Whether it was old Denton High, Ryan High, or now Guyer High, Denton has a very strong pedigree of high school football success over the last 40 years.

Edited September 4, 2013 by untjim1995

[PlummMeanGreen]

TCU's sellout for that Utah game was due to it being a big game, their big success up to that point, and the fact that they had a big city to market them to without much competition. Remember a couple of things about TCU: First, its not very big, but they have a lot of money in Ft. Worth and the citizenry love it being their hometown team, especially their Chamber of Commerce in FW. Secondly, and this cannot be understated, but Denton has GREAT high school football, while FW has the worst football teams of any big city in the state (and its not even close). I'm not sure that FW has had a team go to a state championship game in the last 50 years. Denton loves its high school football and they support it big time, so that takes away from the university just a bit. TCU has no competition for dollars or time from the local HS teams in FW, unlike us. Whether it was old Denton High, Ryan High, or now Guyer High, Denton has a very strong pedigree of high school football success over the last 40 years.

You may be too young to remember the TCU many of us do back in the 60's and 70's.

TCU was terrible. I will say this once again for some of you newbies but............TCU simply would not schedule North Texas during 3 distinct eras of Mean Green football history: (1) the Abner Haynes Era, (2) the Mean Joe Greene Era and (3) the Hayden Fry Era because Mean Green football for those 3 decades had it really going on for the most part. For proof of that, merely ask College Football Hall of Famer Arkansas AD Frank Broyles what North Texas had during the 60's and then ask ex U of Tennessee HFC Bill Battle and even former UH HFC Bill Yeoman about the 70's at North Texas. We kicked UH's butt 28 to 0 the year before they entered the SWC and then their going to the Cotton Bowl in their first year.

U of TN ex HFC Bill Battle (basically) got fired at seasons end mostly because North Texas had defeated his team but you talk about a lemon that turned into one helluva' lemonade stand windfall for Bill Battle? Well, he got out of coaching and most likely his brainchild, ie, College Licensing company's labels are on most of your sports gear maybe still in many of your dirty clothes hampers from last weekends doings at Apogee Stadium.

Fort Worth had become Dallas Cowboys Country and had the Horned Frogs not had the usual big SWC schools traveling fans coming to Amon Carter Stadium their stadium would have had no fans. Fort Worth back then was turned off to TCU. I remember a snow game at Amon Carter Stadium against the UT Longhorns during the 70's which drew a tad over 20,000 (and most of that group were wearing burnt orange).

I've often wondered where our attendance would be today if we had had a regular staple of Longhorns, Aggies, Bears, Razorback, Red Raiders, etc, etc, etc; that is, if we had had them coming to Denton every other year over a half century's timeline? Seems to me we would have built a pretty size-able fan base with such opponents. How could we have not done such?

The funny part of all this now is how TCU acts as if they just joined the big leagues albeit they had been part of that scene in the Southwest Conference for almost 100 years. Amazing....

Edited September 4, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[untjim1995]

You may be too young to remember the TCU many of us do back in the 60's and 70's.

TCU was terrible. I will say this once again for some of you newbies but............TCU simply would not schedule North Texas during 3 distinct eras of Mean Green football history: (1) the Abner Haynes Era, (2) the Mean Joe Greene Era and (3) the Hayden Fry Era because Mean Green football for those 3 decades had it really going on for the most part. For proof of that, merely ask College Football Hall of Famer Arkansas AD Frank Broyles what North Texas had during the 60's and then ask ex U of Tennessee HFC Bill Battle and even former UH HFC Bill Yeoman about the 70's at North Texas. We kicked UH's butt 28 to 0 the year before they entered the SWC and then their going to the Cotton Bowl in their first year.

U of TN ex HFC Bill Battle (basically) got fired at seasons end mostly because North Texas had defeated his team but you talk about a lemon that turned into one helluva' lemonade stand windfall for Bill Battle? Well, he got out of coaching and most likely his brainchild, ie, College Licensing company's labels are on most of your sports gear maybe still in many of your dirty clothes hampers from last weekends doings at Apogee Stadium.

Fort Worth had become Dallas Cowboys Country and had the Horned Frogs not had the usual big SWC schools traveling fans coming to Amon Carter Stadium their stadium would have had no fans. Fort Worth back then was turned off to TCU. I remember a snow game at Amon Carter Stadium against the UT Longhorns drew a tad over 20,000 (and most of that wearing burnt orange).

I've often wondered where our attendance would be today if we had had a regular staple of Longhorns, Aggies, Bears, Razorback, Red Raiders, etc, etc, etc,; anyhow if we had had them coming to Denton every other year? Seems to me we would have built a pretty sizeable fan base with such opponentes over a period of 50 years.

The funny part of all this is how TCU acts like they just joined the big leagues albeit they had been part of that scene in the Southwest Conference for almost 100 years. Amazing....

I grew up in Ft. Worth in the 70s and 80s and I remember how bad TCU was. Heck, I remember us beating them at ACS in 1985. But back in 1995, TCU did something genius. They knew that the SWC was about to end, having been left behind by the Big XII teams at Tech, A&M, UT, and Baylor. They were going to join the WAC with SMU and Rice from the SWC, but there was no doubt that they had to come up with something to make up for the loss of future Aggies, Longhorns, Red Raiders, and Bears that had helped boost attendance at their small rpivate school. They created the "Group of 100", who were among the biggest civic and commerce leaders in FW and asked for their help in getting TCU rebranded and making a connection to the town. So they came up with a slogan "Your Hometown Team", marketed heavily toward getting youth to games in the end zone, had businesses buy season tickets to give to their employees and clients, and also advertised even heavier in the FWST (this was funded by some monied alums, IIRC). In those first few WAC years, with Pat Sullivan as their coach, they couldn't draw flies because they were terrible, winning only one game in Sullivan's last year--an end of season win at home over SMU that cost the Ponies a bowl game (HAHA!!). But they did something that we have FINALLY mimicked in that they went out and hired a guy who had proven to be a turnaround artist in Coach Fran, who also brought along a young defensive coach in Gary Patterson. The rest is history. Yes, TCU got 30k for attendance averages for most of the next few years, as they continued to build up the program. Smartly, they scheduled us then for a 2 for 1 deal, knowing we would bring people to ACS and that they would get a win over a I-A team. When we got good, they did like all the others do (Tech, Baylor, and probably SMU in the future), which is abandon scheduling us again until we are useful to them.

TCU is a program I would love to style ourselves after, just on a smaller scale, since we don't have the population that FW has, nor do we have a big media outlet (FWST) like they do. But they hired right (I really hope we have too, since I like McCarney a lot), began to win and recruit better players, and switched leagues that made them better for media coverage, competition, and prestige as they kept winning. We could get to 23k in average attendance fairly easily just because of our enrollment and alumni, but the civic interest is what will be the difference between us being where we are and moving up to selling out Apogee is that I'm not sure we will ever see Denton support UNT like FW supported TCU. And as we all know too well, scheduling the Big XII Texas teams in the way that SMU and Rice seem to be able to do at home hasn't been something those teams have generally wanted to do in Denton. Its a big reason why I have long wanted us to go out and play OOC series with teams like BYU and Boise State out west, with Mizzou or Nebraska or Colorado in the midwest since they lost their Texas games once they left the Big XII. We have to do what TCU did, whihc was schedule better. Yes, they always played and even lost to a FCS school, but they always had a bigger name on the OOC schedule that was usually in FW. What I would give for us to beat a ranked OU team like they did or to beat a team like USC in a bowl game like they did that got them going...

This type of scheduling is all up to the AD here at UNT to get done. But that is much harder now that this power conferences are playing nine conference games in the future and won't schedule many road games against non-AQs anymore in the future (See recent BCS buster-NIU playing Nebraska 4 times in Lincoln over the next 8 years without a return game or neutral site game.)