Take Benford out of the Picture what do you think of this BB class?

Wag Tag · June 5, 2013

If I look at this recruiting class from a non-hater point of view, I am impressed! Guards upgraded with the new guys and TJ in the picture, Center upgraded (TM was not a center) with Gaines ( stay healthy my friend) and maybe an improved Coleman( just set pics and rebound)..Post and swing play alot of good players with different techniques that will create good match ups! For UNT this looks like a very good class!

CMJ · June 5, 2013

I don't really judge a class till I've seen them play. On paper a lot of players look good.

Greendylan · June 5, 2013

Well, at the conclusion of this past season I feared that Benford would really struggle to find quality recruits, especially at our need positions. He may have proven me wrong. On paper, these guys are better than I was expecting. Furthermore, several of them have Division 1 experience, which may really help the transition to the post-TM Mean Green.

However, if there is any more attrition, and if that attrition involves Alzee or CJ or both, then we are screwed regardless.

H-towngreen · June 5, 2013

I don't see why everyone is so impressed. We have Weslye who is a good recruit. Top 50 in Texas. Nunn is an unknown. We have the other dude from Kingwood who didn't even start on his HS team. Voss is a Juco, who looks solid. Gaines is someone who didn't get a lot of minutes at Cincy. I think he's an unknown. He could be another Coleman for all we know. TJ Taylor could be a boom or bust. Yeah, if you just look at the size of these guys it's nice, but how they play on the court is another thing. More importantly how they play in 30 second intervals before being subbed out.

Edited June 5, 2013 by H-towngreen

Green P1 · June 5, 2013

Greg, Gaines, and a whole lot of filler.

Harry · June 5, 2013

Good post Wag Tag and I am right there with you. Another way to look at it is how this team would fare against the team we had last year (injuries and all).

Benford deserves credit where credit is due. To get Gaines, to get to him first and seal the deal with a smart kid who - according to Cronin - one of the most athletic players Cincy has had is pretty impressive. TJ Taylor we haven't seen but may be his best player. No academic issues since he haas been here.

Benford deserves criticism for last year, and he has admitted he made some mistakes. I find it very encouraging that his recruiting ability appears to still be in tact.

I think the wildcard is the young guys, namely Nunn, Friar and Wesley. If these guys can contribute in any meaningfull way it could be a fun season.

Greendylan · June 5, 2013

I don't see why everyone is so impressed. We have Friar who is a good recruit. Top 50 in Texas. Friar is an unknown. We have the other dude from Kingwood who didn't even start on his HS team. Voss is a Juco, who looks solid. Gaines is someone who didn't get a lot of minutes at Cincy. I think he's an unknown. He could be another Coleman for all we know. TJ Taylor could be a boom or bust. Yeah, if you just look at the size of these guys it's nice, but how they play on the court is another thing. More importantly how they play in 30 second intervals before being subbed out.

I wouldn't say that I'm THAT impressed. But, I do think we did a solid job of adequately filling our need areas. Also, it seems like we found some guys with the outside shooting skills that were glaringly absent last season. So, maybe we can now remove the flimsy excuses for last season's utter failure?

UNT90 · June 5, 2013

Player development is a HUGE part of being a college head coach. For that reason, you can't separate the recruiting class from the coach. The fact that almost every player went backward in development last year, including one that may be about to go in the top 15 of the NBA draft, gives me little hope for any development in the current class. Vaughns may be the exception, since he has already played 3 years under different coaches.

Gaines has very little college experience. Basically, his numbers break down to playing 14 minutes a game for 20 games. That is it. He will need development.

What concerns me is Benford's quote about being able to tolerate a Big East practice. It concerns me for 2 reasons. Gaines was hurt A LOT his 1st two years, so explain to me exactly how he tolerated those practices again? Also, it shows that Benford has no plan to change what he is doing.

Wonderful.

Harry · June 5, 2013

Player development is a HUGE part of being a college head coach. For that reason, you can't separate the recruiting class from the coach. The fact that almost every player went backward in development last year, including one that may be about to go in the top 15 of the NBA draft, gives me little hope for any development in the current class. Vaughns may be the exception, since he has already played 3 years under different coaches.

Gaines has very little college experience. Basically, his numbers break down to playing 14 minutes a game for 20 games. That is it. He will need development.

What concerns me is Benford's quote about being able to tolerate a Big East practice. It concerns me for 2 reasons. Gaines was hurt A LOT his 1st two years, so explain to me exactly how he tolerated those practices again? Also, it shows that Benford has no plan to change what he is doing.

Wonderful.

That's a valid point 90. If we are able to develop these players we will go a lot farther. And that's a big question mark after last season. On paper we have a great staff - Coach Robb Evans, Lundy etc - we have some good coaches with skins on the wall We didn't see the results last season with the possible exception of Jordan Williams who I believe really improved.

GrandGreen · June 5, 2013

I don't understand why anyone is impressed with this class, other than you may have expected worse. I hope for the best, but really how many of these recruits was actually highly sought. Answer, in the late period; none. Other than early signee Wesley, this is a totally underwhelming group. Flanagan and Gaines are impressive physical athletes but have done little on the court at this point. Nunn and Frior have big bodies but showed nothing their senior high school year. Vaughs an one year recruit who was a solid backup and will be valuable but I doubt a game changer. Voss will likely be productive at NT, but was not heavily sought.

Jones many times got players with little fanfare, that turned into good players. I don't have the same confidence in Benford. Jones had got the program to a point that NT could compete at least for the second level for good local and Texas players. Benford has had to beat the bushes to get players from everywhere and has lost any regional recruiting advantage that NT had under Jones.

I really don't understand how so many on here think that Benford is a good recruiter. I am afraid he will continue a revolving door approach with a huge turnover that in the long run seldom works unless you have a premier program that good players are willing to risk losing a ship to play for a renown team.

UNT90 · June 5, 2013

That's a valid point 90. If we are able to develop these players we will go a lot farther. And that's a big question mark after last season. On paper we have a great staff - Coach Robb Evans, Lundy etc - we have some good coaches with skins on the wall We didn't see the results last season with the possible exception of Jordan Williams who I believe really improved.

The experience in the assistants concerns me even more about the head coach. It isn't like he didn't have a bunch of coaching tools at his disposal last year.

He is the head coach. Dependent on his management style, it may not matter if Pat Riley and Phil Jackson were his top two assistants.

glick1980 · June 5, 2013

Player development is a HUGE part of being a college head coach. For that reason, you can't separate the recruiting class from the coach. The fact that almost every player went backward in development last year, including one that may be about to go in the top 15 of the NBA draft, gives me little hope for any development in the current class. Vaughns may be the exception, since he has already played 3 years under different coaches.

Gaines has very little college experience. Basically, his numbers break down to playing 14 minutes a game for 20 games. That is it. He will need development.

What concerns me is Benford's quote about being able to tolerate a Big East practice. It concerns me for 2 reasons. Gaines was hurt A LOT his 1st two years, so explain to me exactly how he tolerated those practices again? Also, it shows that Benford has no plan to change what he is doing.

Wonderful.

I agree but when you think of what players played both under JJ and Benford which ones took a step back and which ones improved.

C Jones - Injured, who knows.

A Jones - Mild step back.

J Williams - Large step forward.

Mitchell - Large step back.

Franklin - Large step forward.

Niko - hard to say, about the same or small step forward.

Black Hole - Injured, who knows.

Walton - Injured, who knows.

Patton - Injured, who knows.

Now, I think Benford was a horrible coach last year, but I think injuries and no real 3 point threat did hurt the team a lot. I think he has made a real effort to have multiple shooters on the roster. I also think that we will learn a lot more about Benford this year if the team is mostly healthy.

UNT90 · June 5, 2013

I agree but when you think of what players played both under JJ and Benford which ones took a step back and which ones improved.

C Jones - Injured, who knows.

A Jones - Mild step back.

J Williams - Large step forward.

Mitchell - Large step back.

Franklin - Large step forward.

Niko - hard to say, about the same or small step forward.

Black Hole - Injured, who knows.

Walton - Injured, who knows.

Patton - Injured, who knows.

Now, I think Benford was a horrible coach last year, but I think injuries and no real 3 point threat did hurt the team a lot. I think he has made a real effort to have multiple shooters on the roster. I also think that we will learn a lot more about Benford this year if the team is mostly healthy.

Dude, I did a whole big Tasty style post on this. The ONLY player that improved, and that improvement was marginal, was Williams. It was hardly a large step forward. Every other player took steps back. Yes, even Roger. The numbers don't lie. If I was better at the internet, I would find it for you.

glick1980 · June 5, 2013

Dude, I did a whole big Tasty style post on this. The ONLY player that improved, and that improvement was marginal, was Williams. It was hardly a large step forward. Every other player took steps back. Yes, even Roger. The numbers don't lie. If I was better at the internet, I would find it for you.

Roger scored 3.5 more points per game while shooting the ball over 7% better from the field and grabbing 1.3 more rebounds per game. He did not take a step back. Williams increased his scoring 3.3 points, and if he improves that much this year, he will average 17.5 points per game. Looking back at Alzee, his numbers were close to the year before, but he did shoot worse. Mitchell shot almost 13% worse than the previous year. Every other returning player besides Niko missed either the entire season or at least half of the season due to injury.

UNT90 · June 5, 2013

Roger scored 3.5 more points per game while shooting the ball over 7% better from the field and grabbing 1.3 more rebounds per game. He did not take a step back. Williams increased his scoring 3.3 points, and if he improves that much this year, he will average 17.5 points per game. Looking back at Alzee, his numbers were close to the year before, but he did shoot worse. Mitchell shot almost 13% worse than the previous year. Every other returning player besides Niko missed either the entire season or at least half of the season due to injury.

Look at points per minutes played per game, not points per game. Also, look at rebounds per minutes played per game. not rebounds per game.

Just as an example, if you play 10 minute per game one year and average 6 points, but then play 30 minutes the next and average 8 points, you haven't improved.

Look deeper at the numbers.

glick1980 · June 5, 2013

Look at points per minutes played per game, not points per game. Also, look at rebounds per minutes played per game. not rebounds per game.

Just as an example, if you play 10 minute per game one year and average 6 points, but then play 30 minutes the next and average 8 points, you haven't improved.

Look deeper at the numbers.

Rogers points per minute and rebounds per minute both improved last year as did his shooting. J Williams points per minute also improved as did his shooting. CJ's assist/TO ratio improved almost 40%, he did shoot much worse. A Williams slight decrease and decrease in shooting. Others injured and/or Niko. There are some positive signs in this dumpster.

UNT90 · June 5, 2013

2011-2012

Roger Franklin 0.349 points per minute played 0.212 rebounds per minute played

Jordan Williams 0.431 points per minute played 0.158 rebounds per minute played

2012-2013

Roger Franklin 0.397 points per minute played 0.214 rebounds per minute played

Jordan Williams 0.446 points per minute played 0.117 rebounds per minute played

Yes, Roger did have a marked increase in scoring per minute played. His RPM were a push

Jordan, not really so much. Jordan's PPM were up a bit, but his RPM were down more. And, no doubt about it, Jordan was the bright spot last year.

I may not have included Franklin because he was not returning this year.

And let's not forget, Roger had 3 years to develop under different coaching staffs (much like Vaughns this year).

Edited June 5, 2013 by UNT90

Harry · June 5, 2013

2011-2012

Roger Franklin 0.349 points per minute played 0.212 rebounds per minute played

Jordan Williams 0.431 points per minute played 0.158 rebounds per minute played

2012-2013

Roger Franklin 0.397 points per minute played 0.214 rebounds per minute played

Jordan Williams 0.446 points per minute played 0.117 rebounds per minute played

Yes, Roger did have a marked increase in scoring per minute played. His RPM were a push

Jordan, not really so much. Jordan's PPM were up a bit, but his RPM were down more. And, no doubt about it, Jordan was the bright spot last year.

I may not have included Franklin because he was not returning this year.

And let's not forget, Roger had 3 years to develop under different coaching staffs (much like Vaughns this year).

Jordan's numbers may be a wash but I saw a huge improvement with his game and scoring in the second half of this past season.

I can't really say on Roger. Most of the times, Roger was the only guy that could score consistently this past season. He was really the go to guy.

UNT90 · June 5, 2013

With Tony being double and tripled by most teams, Rogers scoring should have gone up.

Jordan's rebounding HAS to improve if this team wants to win more than 10 games next year. Averaging 3.7 rebounds in 31 minutes from your wing is just not gonna cut it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the scoring aspect of his game improved, but he let rebounding slide.

And we won't even go into defensive liabilities.

glick1980 · June 5, 2013

With Tony being double and tripled by most teams, Rogers scoring should have gone up.

Jordan's rebounding HAS to improve if this team wants to win more than 10 games next year. Averaging 3.7 rebounds in 31 minutes from your wing is just not gonna cut it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the scoring aspect of his game improved, but he let rebounding slide.

And we won't even go into defensive liabilities.

Jordan should be a better rebounder. He should get 5-6 a game. And the everyone run at the man with the ball defense didn't work for me either. Roger shot 7% better overall while Jordan shot 7% better on threes compared to last year.

PlummMeanGreen · June 5, 2013

If Benford becomes successful won't it be so easy for him to want to leave Denton?

Can we count (maybe) on one hand any of our past UNT HFC's or HBC's who want to come

back to our campus because they had such a wonderful experience while here?

I hope Benford succeeds for himself and for us.

GMG!

UNTLifer · June 5, 2013

Jordan's numbers may be a wash but I saw a huge improvement with his game and scoring in the second half of this past season.

I can't really say on Roger. Most of the times, Roger was the only guy that could score consistently this past season. He was really the go to guy.

Give up Harry, he's going to pull stats to support his hatefest of Benford.

CMJ · June 5, 2013

Wait PMG, didn't Trilli come back when his current school (that he's the AD for) played us a few years ago in the exhibition season? I am not him, but apparently he enjoyed being back. He probably even signed off on that game because of his ties here.

He was lower than dirt when he left, so if even he can have a good time being back in Denton, who can't?

Edited June 5, 2013 by CMJ