Gov. Perry

[Christopher Walker]

Yeah, that used to be referred to as the "free market". When doctors could simply work with the patient and determine care based on what the patient could afford. But unfortunately, there are those that would shriek about "leaving Granny to die", when nothing could be further from the truth.

My brothers and I were born at Flow Memorial Hospital--a charity hospital--and treated throughout our youth and into adulthood in a doctor's office off Scripture street, during a time when my parents did not have health insurance. My parents were simply asked what they "could afford to pay that day" when they brought us in for checkups or shots, or whatever. As long as my parents showed some sort of responsibility financially--no matter if it was $20 or whatever--we always received treatment.

Amazingly, we survived long enough to become adults.

You realize such a doctor's office would not exist today, right?

[LongJim]

You realize such a doctor's office would not exist today, right?

They are rare, but they do still exist. But the question should really be--why don't they still exist?

[greenminer]

You realize such a doctor's office would not exist today, right?

LJ is right, they are rare but do exist.

[JesseMartin]

One of our fellow alums (who got a law degree and then an MD) has an office in NY that sounds like it may be about like what you guys are talking about.

What I find eerie is the fact that with all of the discussion of medicine and healthcare, no one has mentioned the fact that lobbyists and corporate money, not parties, are what have really determined the direction this country has taken as far as that policy area is concerned. Even the conservative parties in other advanced countries agree with what some have mentioned here, and that is that the taxes and costs to "consumers" are reduced with well-planned and available healthcare programs.

The numbers don't lie...they pay a much smaller percentage of their total income for all forms of care and aren't denied coverage. My point is that it isn't a conservative vs. liberal argument as it is usually painted (even by proponents of both sides in this country), but rather a complete system failure. Between the lobbyists and their employers, that's where most of the extra goes, with a little bit being paid to some of the most loyal doctors as well as the "costs" to contribute to political campaigns, so the politicians (who of course still draw a fat paycheck from our tax dollars and get tons of fringe benefits) get quite a kickback...but if we weren't paying all that extra money for healthcare, wouldn't there be extra money for campaign contributions from the REST of us instead of just big lump sums from the few who have basically fixed the game?

As to the educational angle, the actual educators here have made some really hard-hitting points. I'd like to add a question...why is it that North Texas, known for a century as educating educators, has so many in that major complaining that their GPA requirements for graduation are too high? Who knows, maybe it was just while I was there, but aside from the "everybody paying for an education deserves a degree" argument, the most bizarre thing I ever heard was from College of Ed students who didn't think it was fair that their GPA requirement was higher than others. Now, maybe some of the ideas brought up here would help, but really, aside from doctors and maybe lawyers, shouldn't teachers (as their knowledge of material can be the key to other peoples' futures) be expected to excel academically more than most other majors?

I understand if you want to throw in a couple of other professions for consideration, but my point is that when your grades are a direct reflection of your capacity to provide a future for those served by your profession, then yes, those majors should have higher degree requirements. And since we only require certification - and not an additional degree - from teachers, then their GPA for their Bachelor's degree should be expected to be a bit higher than many others. Not to sound like a turncoat, but have you seen how few of my fellow art students graduate Cum Laude (not counting those who major in Art Ed or Art History)? I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a studio artist should still show a moderate level of proficiency in all areas to gain a degree, whereas an educator should have more considerable academic credentials as they are, in fact, the next generation of academia at some level or another.

Though I haven't looked at requirements in the last few years, what the difference boiled down to was that most other majors required a C or C minus average for graduation whereas Education required a B minus. I'm certainly not one for unfair or authoritative rulings, but I wasn't ready to take on that fight for the Education majors, because it seems reasonable that those who pass down the precepts of education should be slightly more well-versed and capable in that arena themselves.

In short, if your academic abilities and/or effort are enough to "squeak by" in order to pursue your career, then fine. But if those abilities and that effort are less than what we hope to see in our children's classrooms, then how can we ever hope to provide a decent education for anyone learning from people who could barely pass muster on their own? Don't misunderstand this, I'm not saying that all teachers are incompetent, but I don't think any of us would want our children "learning" from someone who was only able to graduate by getting the grade requirements lowered. I would love to see better pay, better curricula, better results, etc. but really, lowering the requirements for those attempting to follow that career path certainly isn't the answer and has bothered me for over a decade, ever since the underachievers who opposed the standards brought it to my attention. Changing that attitude before some of these people ever take over a classroom might help in the long run.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I don't think anyone wants to live in a poorly educated country. At the same time, how can anyone explain why we can spend so much money on education and not have better results when compared to other countries that spend less than the US and rank higher than US students?

..

Several reasons..

1. We educate everyone...and to a rather high age... In some countries after a certain "grade" many go into "trade" schools. I'm guessing many of those really aren't taking the tests ... which affects scores and gives a false comparison..

2. My high school class scored very high on standardized tests. Of course the age to drop out was lower then and a lot of them did. Leaving a group that did well in school. We were pre Viet Nam.... and after that scores dropped... partly because a lot less guys were dropping out.... they didn't like the idea of being sent to a rice paddy... which is what happened to most of them eventually. Later the compulsory age was raised which would drop scores because those that were doing poorly in school were still there instead of gone. You need to look HOW a country runs their schools to really compare. Part two of that is labor laws here... the young can no longer get jobs they once could ... so.... with no real jobs with decent pay available... they stay in school..... Not true in many countries.... which removes of the disinterested and poor student which would have dropped test scores....

3. So many students that I have had in the past especially in Texas here go home and speak Spanish.. Often their parents are NOT that well educated either even in Spanish. That doesn't happen in Iowa, Idaho, and many other places ... that will drop scores. that isn't much of a problem in foreign countries... they tend to speak the language and are often educated and multi-lingual.. I have been in Europe many times and most all can speak/write multiple languages. The education backgournd of parents is a big factor in achievement... Don't compare a border town achievement scores with Frisco/Plano for example for that reason.. ........ that is the big reason the state testing is so flawed especially in evaluating teachers... the best teacher can often have lower scores... [ all about who is walking in the door to be taught ] My parents were unable to finish high school (depression) my kids had college educated parents .. and now have computer and law degrees ...makes a difference.

4.. Last........ I am disgusted with schools that pressure teachers to pass kids when they don't deserve it......... When you expect nothing.... you get nothing ***. It spills over when a kid with a 74 grade sees a kid that did about nothing get a 70 ... guess what.... he gets it.... don't need to work to pass .... and he won't. ... and it gets worse every semester. ..... part two of that is you don't want 15 year olds in a class with 12 year olds..... and you don't want the 15 year walking the streets (can't get a job) and breaking into houses. Problem..... find an answer for those kids... and trade classes etc. are not as cheap as teaching Chaucer.

*** applies to parents too ... too many expect nothing from their kid and don't have the courage to say NO or be a parent... and therefore get about nothing from them.... they just blame the schools. ...that is easier......... Check out most Asian kids.... their parents pressure them to learn... and they do.

I teach stats... people need to consider how those scores were achieved and the population... Strange that basketball players have a larger height than the general population... They are just people like the rest of us.

..

Edited June 4, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[GrayEagle]

Some of the arguments on education are downright brilliant. I have a simpler reason for keeping Gov. Perry. His usage of the word 'mofo' is outstanding.

[meanrob]

Pardon me if I find it a little amusing a lot of you think throwing money at education won't solve the problem but throwing money at North Texas Athletics will.

Carry on.

[meangreendork]

They are rare, but they do still exist. But the question should really be--why don't they still exist?

Malpractice lawsuits probably.

[UNTFan23]

This is an interesting news article. It looks like it's not a perfect survey but it sounds like a start for a better rating of the education system that is educating our educators.

[HoustonEagle]

Yeah, that used to be referred to as the "free market". When doctors could simply work with the patient and determine care based on what the patient could afford. But unfortunately, there are those that would shriek about "leaving Granny to die", when nothing could be further from the truth.

My brothers and I were born at Flow Memorial Hospital--a charity hospital--and treated throughout our youth and into adulthood in a doctor's office off Scripture street, during a time when my parents did not have health insurance. My parents were simply asked what they "could afford to pay that day" when they brought us in for checkups or shots, or whatever. As long as my parents showed some sort of responsibility financially--no matter if it was $20 or whatever--we always received treatment.

Amazingly, we survived long enough to become adults.

I am a fellow Flow Memorial kid myself. I believe it was converted to some sort of mental hospital? I suppose they are preparing for my return.

[LongJim]

Here's an interesting article about healthcare, cash payment, and third-party payment. This paragraph is pretty telling. But of course we have almost 3 generations that grew up in a third-party payment system and react with either surprise or scoff at the idea a lot of times:

"At Access Healthcare, a cash-only practice, fees can be lower than the co-pays a patient would otherwise cover under a traditional insurance plan. The cost-lowering potential of direct-payment practices is heartening because the current third-party payment system has failed to stem our burgeoning health cost crisis.

Indeed, third-party payment is largely to blame for the untamed growth of health costs. Back in 1960, only about half the nation’s health spending was paid for by a third party, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. By 1980 that had risen to 77 percent. Today, it’s 88 percent. Not surprisingly, as consumers’ out-of-pocket share of health costs has declined, their demand for care has exploded."

So, as I mentioned--direct pay still exists. Just very rare to see it any more.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2013/04/01/fed-up-with-obamacare-doctors-increasingly-prefer-cash-for-care/

Edited June 18, 2013 by LongJim

[LongJim]

I am a fellow Flow Memorial kid myself. I believe it was converted to some sort of mental hospital? I suppose they are preparing for my return.

Alas, it was torn down long ago and the land "repurposed".

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

..

Several reasons..

1. We educate everyone...and to a rather high age... In some countries after a certain "grade" many go into "trade" schools. I'm guessing many of those really aren't taking the tests ... which affects scores and gives a false comparison..

2. My high school class scored very high on standardized tests. Of course the age to drop out was lower then and a lot of them did. Leaving a group that did well in school. We were pre Viet Nam.... and after that scores dropped... partly because a lot less guys were dropping out.... they didn't like the idea of being sent to a rice paddy... which is what happened to most of them eventually. Later the compulsory age was raised which would drop scores because those that were doing poorly in school were still there instead of gone. You need to look HOW a country runs their schools to really compare. Part two of that is labor laws here... the young can no longer get jobs they once could ... so.... with no real jobs with decent pay available... they stay in school..... Not true in many countries.... which removes of the disinterested and poor student which would have dropped test scores....

3. So many students that I have had in the past especially in Texas here go home and speak Spanish.. Often their parents are NOT that well educated either even in Spanish. That doesn't happen in Iowa, Idaho, and many other places ... that will drop scores. that isn't much of a problem in foreign countries... they tend to speak the language and are often educated and multi-lingual.. I have been in Europe many times and most all can speak/write multiple languages. The education backgournd of parents is a big factor in achievement... Don't compare a border town achievement scores with Frisco/Plano for example for that reason.. ........ that is the big reason the state testing is so flawed especially in evaluating teachers... the best teacher can often have lower scores... [ all about who is walking in the door to be taught ] My parents were unable to finish high school (depression) my kids had college educated parents .. and now have computer and law degrees ...makes a difference.

4.. Last........ I am disgusted with schools that pressure teachers to pass kids when they don't deserve it......... When you expect nothing.... you get nothing ***. It spills over when a kid with a 74 grade sees a kid that did about nothing get a 70 ... guess what.... he gets it.... don't need to work to pass .... and he won't. ... and it gets worse every semester. ..... part two of that is you don't want 15 year olds in a class with 12 year olds..... and you don't want the 15 year walking the streets (can't get a job) and breaking into houses. Problem..... find an answer for those kids... and trade classes etc. are not as cheap as teaching Chaucer.

*** applies to parents too ... too many expect nothing from their kid and don't have the courage to say NO or be a parent... and therefore get about nothing from them.... they just blame the schools. ...that is easier......... Check out most Asian kids.... their parents pressure them to learn... and they do.

I teach stats... people need to consider how those scores were achieved and the population... Strange that basketball players have a larger height than the general population... They are just people like the rest of us.

..

Yes to all of it.

It wasn't until recently that my wife's home country, Mexico, made education compulsary past what we consider junior high. Here, if a kid stops showing up, someone is knocking at the parents' door to find out where they went. Not so for many decades in Mexico.

And,what do we have here in Texas? A bunch of Mexicans. And, what is thought about education burned into first generation immigrants - wasn't important at home, probably not going to be important here.

You need to go ahead and throw in huge misconceptions. We know a family where none of the kids went to college, although they all graudated high school and were quite bright. The parents told me colleges were racist against Mexicans. I told them nothing was further from the truth - colleges fall all over themselves to get Mexicans admitted, even having quotas!

There is much ignorance in the Mexican community about education. Some of it is understandable because of the parents' language barrier. But, some of it is just down right ignorance about how the system works. And, here is where high school guidance counselors really need to pick up the ball and run with it.

As far as whites and blacks...if their American, English speaking parents are not educating them at home as well as keeping as close eye on what they are doing at school, then their kids' failure is their fault. Not Rick Perry's or any other government official. There are so many opportuities for parents to get involved with their kids' lives, there are no excuses.

Number 1: YOUR KIDS LIVE IN YOUR HOUSE WITH YOU EVERY DAY! Pay attention to their schooling!

As to Asians...yes. They do it right. We're talking about many people forced to come here due to wars and things in the mother countries, yet succeeding in spite of language barriers. It's why when politicians say, "Minorities" they are never talking about the smallest percentage of "Minorities" - Asian, Indians, Middle Easterners. They really only mean American Hispanics, Mexicans, and Blacks.

The politicians who represent the American Hispanics, Mexicans, and Blacks want to hear nothing of Asians, Indians, and Middle Easterners (and, throw in Eastern Europeans) coming here and succeeding academically in spite of language and cultural differences. Those success stories screw up their narrative about the RIck Perrys of the world not giving them enough money and so forth.

[Censored by Laurie]

Yes to all of it.

It wasn't until recently that my wife's home country, Mexico, made education compulsary past what we consider junior high. Here, if a kid stops showing up, someone is knocking at the parents' door to find out where they went. Not so for many decades in Mexico.

And,what do we have here in Texas? A bunch of Mexicans. And, what is thought about education burned into first generation immigrants - wasn't important at home, probably not going to be important here.

You need to go ahead and throw in huge misconceptions. We know a family where none of the kids went to college, although they all graudated high school and were quite bright. The parents told me colleges were racist against Mexicans. I told them nothing was further from the truth - colleges fall all over themselves to get Mexicans admitted, even having quotas!

There is much ignorance in the Mexican community about education. Some of it is understandable because of the parents' language barrier. But, some of it is just down right ignorance about how the system works. And, here is where high school guidance counselors really need to pick up the ball and run with it.

As far as whites and blacks...if their American, English speaking parents are not educating them at home as well as keeping as close eye on what they are doing at school, then their kids' failure is their fault. Not Rick Perry's or any other government official. There are so many opportuities for parents to get involved with their kids' lives, there are no excuses.

Number 1: YOUR KIDS LIVE IN YOUR HOUSE WITH YOU EVERY DAY! Pay attention to their schooling!

As to Asians...yes. They do it right. We're talking about many people forced to come here due to wars and things in the mother countries, yet succeeding in spite of language barriers. It's why when politicians say, "Minorities" they are never talking about the smallest percentage of "Minorities" - Asian, Indians, Middle Easterners. They really only mean American Hispanics, Mexicans, and Blacks.

The politicians who represent the American Hispanics, Mexicans, and Blacks want to hear nothing of Asians, Indians, and Middle Easterners (and, throw in Eastern Europeans) coming here and succeeding academically in spite of language and cultural differences. Those success stories screw up their narrative about the RIck Perrys of the world not giving them enough money and so forth.

You do live in Frisco, TX, right?

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Yes. We live in Frisco...TX.

[Censored by Laurie]

Yes. We live in Frisco...TX.

A real melting-pot that, huh?

[JesseMartin]

Oh, geez...

[TheTastyGreek]

A real melting-pot that, huh?

It's no Mexia. Or Connecticut.

They got an Ikea up there, though. So, it's Swede-friendly.

[oldguystudent]

A real melting-pot that, huh?

I lived in Frisco for six mostly miserable years. It's a lot more ethnically diverse than you think it is. Has an Islamic Mosque and everything. It is, however, for the most part, of a singular socioeconomic mind, and the neighbors WILL call the police on you if your vehicle is a bit too old, or a beer can should miss its target in the blue recycling bin. They WILL call the HOA nanny on you if your lawn is not edged to four-inch, ninety degree perfection. They WILL terrorize your child in front of her classmates if you don't succumb to PTA extortion efforts. The mostly bored housewives WILL try every sneaky trick in the book to get you over for a pampered chef party.

I hated living in Frisco. Hated it more than anywhere else I've ever lived. A friend from California commented on it, "This place sold its soul in exchange for convenience and exclusivity." I really can't stand even driving through it anymore, and will actually reroute if I find myself aiming my vehicle in its general direction.

But completely whitewashed, it ain't.

Lewisville, my current city of residence, ain't whitewashed. Hell, one could hardly say it's washed at all. But at least we've got some serious taco joints. And I kinda like that my daughter has to deal with more than one cookie cutter type of student at her school. She's thriving beyond anything she ever did in Frisco, and she's learning people skills to deal with ALL kinds of kids that she would never have otherwise met until college.

Like TFLF, I filter, enhance, add on to, and set expectations for education and learning at home. Whatever LISD decides to throw at her, be it good or bad, we work it all out at home. And she's kicking ass and taking names on that front. Got a perfect score on her STARS test this year, lowest grade (in an all pre-AP schedule) was 97 for the year, made honor band for 7th grade, won the entire district in UIL math (along with four other medals), and has made some serious friends in middle school.

I have a feeling that if we still lived in Stepfordville, she'd be much more of a social outcast, because we never did buy into that whole cookie cutter approach, and I'm not paying $500 to the PTA this month just because they want to be the school with the highest frickin' income. When they told my daughter that my refusal to join the PTA was the sole reason her class didn't get a pizza party, I called the teacher, order double pizza AND ice cream for the whole class, and told the room mother to go pamper herself.

Edited June 20, 2013 by oldguystudent

[meangreendork]

I lived in Frisco for six mostly miserable years. It's a lot more ethnically diverse than you think it is. Has an Islamic Mosque and everything. It is, however, for the most part, of a singular socioeconomic mind, and the neighbors WILL call the police on you if your vehicle is a bit too old, or a beer can should miss its target in the blue recycling bin. They WILL call the HOA nanny on you if your lawn is not edged to four-inch, ninety degree perfection. They WILL terrorize your child in front of her classmates if you don't succumb to PTA extortion efforts. The mostly bored housewives WILL try every sneaky trick in the book to get you over for a pampered chef party.

I hated living in Frisco. Hated it more than anywhere else I've ever lived. A friend from California commented on it, "This place sold its soul in exchange for convenience and exclusivity." I really can't stand even driving through it anymore, and will actually reroute if I find myself aiming my vehicle in its general direction.

But completely whitewashed, it ain't.

Lewisville, my current city of residence, ain't whitewashed. Hell, one could hardly say it's washed at all. But at least we've got some serious taco joints. And I kinda like that my daughter has to deal with more than one cookie cutter type of student at her school. She's thriving beyond anything she ever did in Frisco, and she's learning people skills to deal with ALL kinds of kids that she would never have otherwise met until college.

Like TFLF, I filter, enhance, add on to, and set expectations for education and learning at home. Whatever LISD decides to throw at her, be it good or bad, we work it all out at home. And she's kicking ass and taking names on that front. Got a perfect score on her STARS test this year, lowest grade (in an all pre-AP schedule) was 97 for the year, made honor band for 7th grade, won the entire district in UIL math (along with four other medals), and has made some serious friends in middle school.

I have a feeling that if we still lived in Stepfordville, she'd be much more of a social outcast, because we never did buy into that whole cookie cutter approach, and I'm not paying $500 to the PTA this month just because they want to be the school with the highest frickin' income. When they told my daughter that my refusal to join the PTA was the sole reason her class didn't get a pizza party, I called the teacher, order double pizza AND ice cream for the whole class, and told the room mother to go pamper herself.

I find that in most cases, race isn't the dividing line, it's socio-economic background.

[oldguystudent]

I find that in most cases, race isn't the dividing line, it's socio-economic background.

Man, ain't that the truth. You can take me out of the white trash hood, but you can't take the white trash hood out of me. I've been more upwardly mobile that anyone in my family ever both in income (previous career) and education, and I've been as uncomfortable as a chimp in a tux the whole time. It just isn't me. I'm much, much more comfortable in a place where people park on the grass and grill meat in the driveway.

[LongJim]

I'm much, much more comfortable in a place where people park on the grass and grill meat in the driveway.

Yeah, well aren't we all? I mean, I'd rather drink beer and grill meat--ok not in my driveway--than do much anything else, TBH. Mark me down for WTH I guess.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I find that in most cases, race isn't the dividing line, it's socio-economic background.

.

--- Absolutely true ... but what you are often looking at in Mexican immigrants are people who family has been poorly educated, and do not value education and don't pressure their kids to learn .... where I have taught we have even thought at times some don't want their kids to be more educated than they (the parents) are... What was good enough for them is good enough for their kids... That seems to change a generation later .... this is not being racist and I don't anyone is claiming that. It is about their socio-economic background and also their awareness of what is possible. As pointed out above by someone... many times other immigrants are fleeing here to get away from bad "political" conditions... They often are/have been well educated families and get it about learning the language and achieving success.

--- This is just my opinion ... but having so much Spanish TV is a bad thing... the need to earn English is decreased .... oddly I had a college student last year whose mother could not speak English but after the grandkids showed up speaking only English.. she could not talk to them so she began to learn English. The student had tried to get the parent to learn but had made no real attempt at English until then. I also had a rather large number of Hispanic girls last semester (very few males) who were trying succeed... Most had worked a while and realized education was the key to getting ahead.. I pretty sure a lot of them learned a lot from me besides the obvious math I was teaching... Some said so... ( business math-college ) .. I was cutting them no slack in expectations. We twist it to cover a lot of personal business topics as well.

.

.

Edited June 21, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--- I live in Midland which is no Frisco ...BUT the WSJ lists us having the 2ed highest per capita income in America ( some Conn. town is #1, Wall Street people there mostly I think. ) Unlike Frisco... we have all types of people here including some who have been on the Fortune 400 (I know quite a few) and also people who don't seem to have a lot. I have found here that people with extreme wealth are not as uppity as you are trying to describe... in fact looking at many of them it is hard to tell.... I laughed at a student who told me many that come into the bank she works at dressed like they just came from Neiman-Marcus are there to cover their bad checks while the person in worn jeans and regular dress may have millions on deposit. She said she quickly learned don't judge by their looks around here. A lot of people here now have high-paying but tough jobs in the oil fields. We consistently are listed in the top 2-3 places with lowest unemployment rate... We have people of all educational/and social levels. At present this is a very crazy place to live... Incoming people can not find a place to live that they can afford. Construction is going nuts as well. At the beginning of this year.. I started checking off state license plates in town... I have seen 41 of the 50 states since January... mostly tiny states left to see. Some of those folks need to learn how to drive... Wreaks and fatalities have jumped in past two years. Don't pullout in front a 18 wheel oil service truck for example.... you always lose.

Edited June 21, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[JesseMartin]

Yup, works the same the other way as well. Family rises in European countries, revolutions occur, they come to the States to farm. Some sides of the family speak English, the others don't. When the non-English speakers' kids breed with the English speakers' kids, they make it a faux pas to be bilingual, because apparently speaking more than one language makes you less educated, less American, whatever. So this particular brand of white trash tells each generation that follows how they want them to aspire to more, be more educated, and so on. But when they do so, the previous generation goes off on them about how they don't know anything and belittle the higher level of education and everything else they accomplished.

That's 3 generations of my family and I'm sure it's not restricted to just us. If your best defense regarding how good a parent you are is that you fulfilled the minimum requirements of clothing, sheltering and feeding them (you know, enough to avoid having CPS called) then you're an idiot. Giving kids a guilt trip because they don't already know what you do (or even what is more advanced than what you learned), then giving them another one because they owe you SO much because they didn't die when you threw them down a flight of stairs, and because you didn't abort them like their siblings, and because their growth wasn't stunted too badly when you rationed what they ate in their teens to "keep them from getting fat" even though they were horribly underweight...also idiotic.

So yeah, I hate everything about what happened, but again, I'm not the only one, and the fact is that a lot of these morons are barely capable of keeping children alive, let alone doing any real "parenting". They think and act like poorly educated liberals, but then are pressured into acting (around others) and voting like conservatives by their churches. They lie to everyone, including their own kids, and then point the finger at everyone else about every single issue, including education.

So when I agree with guys like Lonnie and Screaming Eagle, it's because I know firsthand (and have met others with similar backgrounds) that just because you survived to be an adult doesn't mean you had decent parenting, and that poorly paid teachers can sometimes be great, but other times were brought in because there aren't enough good, qualified people to take the jobs. Better pay for teachers will help to a point, but if you're a shitty parent, then the only way your kid will overcome the handicap of having you as a parent is by wanting to get away from you and work as hard as possible to become independent.

Even though I tried to "fix" things with my family a couple of times as an adult, I have to admit that the only reason I did well is because they were so bad, the only thing I wanted to do was get out, get away, get good grades and soak up as much as I could so that I never had to go back. If I hadn't tried to play peacemaker, it probably would have worked out a lot sooner. The lesson here is that if you are terrible to your kids, and they begin to develop any level of success, it's probably because they hate you, so if you want grandchildren you might want to be the first to try to patch things up. But don't expect that there will even be any of that, because chances are if your kids feel that way, they might just kill themselves instead.

Sorry if that was all too negative, but it's true, and pretty damned important when you're considering people that should be the most important thing in your life rather than money and cars and furniture.

Edited June 21, 2013 by JesseMartin