Just look at the facts

[calvin]

Lets see all Smith did was win 7 straight games and lead us to our first bowl win in a century. He improved every week while doing so, and he has stronger arm, better pocket presence, and is more mobile. So give me one good reason he shouldnt start. And there is no way you can measure their perfomance the other night as a factor, they both stunk against the best defense in the country. And some of ya'll say that crap about well Hall led us to our only scorin drive, well crap one of his throws was a swing pass to Bishop that went like 50 yards, well what about his 2 opportunities in the first half when we were inside their 40 and he missed a sure TD pass to Branch. Now i am a fan of Hall and i know he was rusty and he is going to need time but you guys dont give any reasons why Smith shouldnt be the starter. Is there a reason? All i can think of his one but I dont want to get all that stuff started, b/c it aint worth it.

[OldTimer]

Calvin, you are entitled to your opinion. Others are entitled to these. If you look at the QB poll....60 % of the posters believe Hall should start, 30 % feel Smith should start. At least one of the Smith voters said he/she voted for Smith because he did not want Smith to have so few votes.

Right now the only "poll" is DD and we will still what works out in the games. IF going into the season they were ranked equal by DD and he started Smith at OU, then in all fairness Hall should be the starter against Baylor.

If you go by who moves the chains, who made the interception you could interpret the stats to support Hall. Yes, he made mistakes, both of them did. How many of "mistakes" were due to the OU # 1 in the nation defense and against both QB's.

Both players are winners. We shouldn't be cutting ourselfs up over an issue that DD will decide and upon which his career is being judged.

[TheColonyEagle]

This may sound stupid, but I didn't consider the OU game in my comparing the two QBs. Now, after the Baylor game, I think one will seperate himself. Baylor sure in hell isn't OU, and I think the QB that wants it the most will come out of this game showing it.

I'm saving my judgement until after the Baylor game.

Of course, the receivers will have to do a better job of hanging on to the ball to make a good judgement anyway.

Gmg,

Jason

[OldTimer]

Just read the post linking the MG official Nt preview..Interesting information:

Nt made 10 first downs against OU. Smith took 28 snaps and Hall took 30 snaps...fairly even.

Hall was under center for 7 first downs, Smith was under center for 3 first downs.

Again...Baylor hopefully will be a better game for both of them and for NT.

[DeepGreen]

Darryl Dickey will make his decision on Saturday, 12:00 noon, based on the outcome of the gomeangreen.com poll that is going on right now.

[TheColonyEagle]

Darryl Dickey will make his decision on Saturday, 12:00 noon, based on the outcome of the gomeangreen.com poll that is going on right now.

Now that's funny!!!

[calvin]

Now what all of you are saying is very correct and i dont disagree but i just dont understand why such a strong bias towards Hall is for. I mean you can give me all the stats in the world about the OU game and honestly you cant judge from the game it is impossible. Now people are saying lets not get tore up about this, but isnt that what the board is for, for all of us who have all the right answers to get on here and voice our opinions.

[EagleMBA]

Andrew and Scott both looked like they lost their poise a few times during the game. Both can scramble, but Scott seems to be more accurate when passing off the rollout. I like Andrew's arm but we didn't use it, so Scott's was plenty good. I think I lean toward Scott because of intangibles. Scott seems to be more in command in the huddle and get the most out of the team when he is in there. Let them compete to see who can put the most points on Baylor and WE ALL WIN!

Just one request: When the ball is kicked off, I want to see no quarter given! If the Green Brigade can whump it up in time, I would love to hear the brass section sound the Deguello, like the Mexicans did before the final charge at the Alamo! Whoever is in the huddle must take it to Baylor.

[EagleMBA]

Andrew and Scott both looked like they lost their poise a few times during the game. Both can scramble, but Scott seems to be more accurate when passing off the rollout. I like Andrew's arm but we didn't use it, so Scott's was plenty good. I think I lean toward Scott because of intangibles. Scott seems to be more in command in the huddle and get the most out of the team when he is in there. Let them compete to see who can put the most points on Baylor and WE ALL WIN!

Just one request: When the ball is kicked off, I want to see no quarter given! If the Green Brigade can whump it up in time, I would love to hear the brass section sound the Deguello, like the Mexicans did before the final charge at the Alamo! Whoever is in the huddle must take it to Baylor.

[MeanGreen61]

Discussion is really moot. DD will cast the one and only decisive vote on who will start. That's the guy who will need our 100% support Saturday vs the Bears.

[stebo]

I am pretty sure that he will start Drew. I don't think he should but I think that is what will happen. Won't make me cheer any less. Hell, maybe all the Scott fans should shut the hell up, sometimes I think that coaches do stuff directly against fan sentiment. Some of the comments made in the coach's shows have shown me that those guys do tune in to the message boards from time to time. They are in charge and have to live with the outcome of their decisions so I am not going to give them a hard time about it.

The question here is probably not who DD wants in the most but who Flanigan feels he can win with.

[IronMan4]

Neither one deserves to start at this point. They do both deserve a chance to show what they have.

Hopefully this will be the week one steps up.

[Monkeypox]

Lets see all Smith did was win 7 straight games and lead us to our first bowl win in a century.  He improved every week while doing so, and he has stronger arm, better pocket presence, and is more mobile.  So give me one good reason he shouldnt start.  And there is no way you can measure their perfomance the other night as a factor, they both stunk against the best defense in the country.  And some of ya'll say that crap about well Hall led us to our only scorin drive, well crap one of his throws was a swing pass to Bishop that went like 50 yards, well what about his 2 opportunities in the first half when we were inside their 40 and he missed a sure TD pass to Branch.  Now i am a fan of Hall and i know he was rusty and he is going to need time but you guys dont give any reasons why Smith shouldnt be the starter.  Is there a reason? All i can think of his one but I dont want to get all that stuff started, b/c it aint worth it.

Okay, I will re-post this information ONE LAST TIME, so people who ask this kind of question can see it. Here's why I'd rather see Hall starting. I didn't even bring it up this time.

Scott Hall:

2000: Freshman year, Hall throws for 937 yards and 6 TDs in limited action. QB Rating of 123.6. Ran for 230 yards. And I remember how bad that offense was.

2001: Sophomore year, Hall throws for 1453 yards, completing 52.6% of his passes, with 17 TDs and 11 INTs. QB Rating of 133.1 is 4th highest in UNT history. Also ran for 328 yards and 4 TDs.

2002: Injured in the first game.

Andrew Smith:

2002: Forced into starting role when Scott Hall is injured. Smith completes only 46.4 % of his passes, with 7 TDs and 9 INTs and 1206 yards. QB Rating of 100.7. Negligible rushing yards, with 1 TD.

[IronMan4]

I think the fine print got left off your Andrew Smith stats..

Undefeated in Sun Belt, won New Orleans Bowl.

If you want to bring the facts, bring the important ones...the W's.

I want the best player to start, but you have to be fair, Smith has earned that right.

I also like how you made a big deal that Hall passed for 937 yards as a freshman, but don't mention that Smith was only a freshman as he passed for 1206 yards. Gotta spin it right for your guy I guess.

[Monkeypox]

I think the fine print got left off your Andrew Smith stats..

Undefeated in Sun Belt, won New Orleans Bowl.

If you want to bring the facts, bring the important ones...the W's.

I want the best player to start, but you have to be fair, Smith has earned that right.

I also like how you made a big deal that Hall passed for 937 yards as a freshman, but don't mention that Smith was only a freshman as he passed for 1206 yards.  Gotta spin it right for your guy I guess.

Smith didn't win most of those games, the defense and running game did. We could've had a lot of people in and come up with the same results last year. Smith hasn't shown me anything as a passer. Do you believe his 100.7 QB rating is what won those games? Seriously...

Let's see, how did he do in that HUGE NO Bowl win last year?

9-22 (40.6%), 126 yards (not bad), 0 TDs, 1 INT (ran back for 46 yards, directly leading to Cincinnatti field goal). QB Rating of 79.9.

1 sack, 5 attempts for 8 rushing yards (hey, third best rushing game of the year for him!!)

Hall played better against Colorado State (110.7 QB Rating, 185 yards) the year before than Smith did vs. Cincinnatti.

Smith had 7 games last year with a QB rating BELOW 100. With the exception of QB, everyone on the offense played better last year than the year before. Smith couldn't complete 50% of his passes in games where we rolled up 200 + rushing yards.

Hall threw for 937 yards as a starter in only NINE games his freshman year, starting in mid-season. He also had a QB Rating 20 POINTS HIGHER THAN SMITH's was last year.

Smith was THERE for 8 wins. In FOUR of those 8 wins, he had a QB Rating of less than 100. In FIVE of those 8 wins, he had less than 100 PASSING yards. Smith didn't HAVE to be good last year, and he wasn't.

Edited September 3, 2003 by Monkeypox

[MeanGreenSig]

Smith din't win any games? two words

Arky State

I felt like Smith was about to get his rhythm just as he was taken out the first time in the OU game-I don't know how anyone is going to be able tell until somebody is the guy and he loses the spot or proves he is the guy

Right now if I'm Dickey-I choose the one I believe can lead the team and they respond to and I choose them NOW!

As for doing the opposite of the fan board consensus, I think the coaches have caught on to something, and if they are not doing the opposite they should try. Kind of like the Market: the general public, the "experts", economists are almost always wrong.

It worked for George Costanza-"Do the opposite"

GMG!

Edited September 3, 2003 by MeanGreenSig

[IronMan4]

There's two arguments I don't understand:

1) Hall is a better leader. How do any of us really know this? Do we know what each guy says in the huddle? So Hall yelled at someone in practice, what if they don't respond to that kind of encouragement? Coach Dickey and his staff know these players, what they respond to, and the ins and outs of it. I don't think there is anyone on the board that can pretend they know what each guy is like in the huddle.

2) Smith didn't win those games. Well how many games did Hall "not win" as a freshman? Smith was thrown in the fire against some very tough competition (remember TCU had the #1 D last year), and developed with experience. Look at the difference in his passes, composure, and success against MTSU and Cincy vs. TCU and USF. I don't care what his numbers were, we won the damn game, and he managed the offense as well as he could. Back to the "he didn't win those games" things...then who did? I'm sorry but all he could have done was win the game! Do you want 300 yards and 3 TDs too from him otherwise he didn't win the game? Don't hold the fact that he played with a great defense and give them credit unless you do the same for Hall.

I don't care which one ends up starting, but the lack of respect for what Andrew Smith did last season does bother me a little.

I know the reasons that Hall has all the support on this board, and that is fine, I wish him all the luck.

I just dread that if Smith wins the job outright according to our coaching staff, our fans will undercut him and chant for Hall every time things aren't going peachy. That will hurt the team more than having the dreaded two QBs everyone bitches about. I would rather have 2 QBs than one who everyone is on the edge of their seat waiting for him to screw up so they can go nuts yelling for the other guy. IMHO.

Edited September 3, 2003 by IronMan4

[IslandEagle]

There's two arguments I don't understand:

1) Hall is a better leader.  How do any of us really know this?  Do we know what each guy says in the huddle?  So Hall yelled at someone in practice, what if they don't respond to that kind of encouragement?  Coach Dickey and his staff know these players, what they respond to, and the ins and outs of it.  I don't think there is anyone on the board that can pretend they know what each guy is like in the huddle.

2) Smith didn't win those games.  Well how many games did Hall "not win" as a freshman?  Smith was thrown in the fire against some very tough competition (remember TCU had the #1 D last year), and developed with experience.  Look at the difference in his passes, composure, and success against MTSU and Cincy vs. TCU and USF.  I don't care what his numbers were, we won the damn game, and he managed the offense as well as he could.  Back to the "he didn't win those games" things...then who did?  I'm sorry but all he could have done was win the game!  Do you want 300 yards and 3 TDs too from him otherwise he didn't win the game?  Don't hold the fact that he played with a great defense and give them credit unless you do the same for Hall.

I don't care which one ends up starting, but the lack of respect for what Andrew Smith did last season does bother me a little. 

I know the reasons that Hall has all the support on this board, and that is fine, I wish him all the luck. 

I just dread that if Smith wins the job outright according to our coaching staff, our fans will undercut him and chant for Hall every time things aren't going peachy.  That will hurt the team more than having the dreaded two QBs everyone bitches about.  I would rather have 2 QBs than one who everyone is on the edge of their seat waiting for him to screw up so they can go nuts yelling for the other guy.  IMHO.

Good post. Can we end this fruitless debate for the time being. It is the coaching staff's job to determine the starter. The staff wants to win even more than we do. No only does their current jobs depend upon it, but their future job prospects as well. They will go with who they think can win or who they think is most ready for the situation with the coming game.

We can debate this till the cows come home. I'll repeat again one last time. I don't care who starts as long as we win. I think both QB's have some positive qualities and both have some deficits that need work.

LETS GO BEAT BAYLOR!

[MeanGreen61]

We can debate this till the cows come home. I'll repeat again one last time. I don't care who starts as long as we win. I think both QB's have some positive qualities and both have some deficits that need work.

LETS GO BEAT BAYLOR!

Careful, someone will start another Hall vs Smith, Smith vs Hall thread

[IslandEagle]

Careful, someone will start another Hall vs Smith, Smith vs Hall thread

I'm more interested in the Byerly-Gonzo debate. Let's get that started!

[untbowler]

I guess there is a reason DD is the head coach and none of are. Baylor will give everyone a good sense of who should be the QB, personally i go with Hall. Smith is more mobile but he also threw pass right to OU and I still remember his pass right to the Cincy CB in NO that was not a TD b/c they made a bonehead push in the back penalty. But who cares I am a bowler not a coach and we will see who is better on Saturday Night. I do hope that if Smith starts and gets on a roll that they just leave him in instead of rotating and disrupt the flow.

[Cerebus]

I'm more interested in the Byerly-Gonzo debate. Let's get that started!

Gonzalez, he knows the offense, isn't afraid of contact,and is probalby better than some of the guys we started in the not too distant pass.

Byerly needs to redshirt, he has some serious potential.

[Monkeypox]

There's two arguments I don't understand:

12) Smith didn't win those games.  Well how many games did Hall "not win" as a freshman?  Smith was thrown in the fire against some very tough competition (remember TCU had the #1 D last year), and developed with experience.  Look at the difference in his passes, composure, and success against MTSU and Cincy vs. TCU and USF.  I don't care what his numbers were, we won the damn game, and he managed the offense as well as he could.  Back to the "he didn't win those games" things...then who did?  I'm sorry but all he could have done was win the game!  Do you want 300 yards and 3 TDs too from him otherwise he didn't win the game?  Don't hold the fact that he played with a great defense and give them credit unless you do the same for Hall.

I don't care which one ends up starting, but the lack of respect for what Andrew Smith did last season does bother me a little. 

I know the reasons that Hall has all the support on this board, and that is fine, I wish him all the luck. 

I just dread that if Smith wins the job outright according to our coaching staff, our fans will undercut him and chant for Hall every time things aren't going peachy.  That will hurt the team more than having the dreaded two QBs everyone bitches about.  I would rather have 2 QBs than one who everyone is on the edge of their seat waiting for him to screw up so they can go nuts yelling for the other guy.  IMHO.

Hall was a DB when he started his freshman year. His QB Rating was a 123.6, which is excellent.

Smith did not have a very good game vs. Cincy (79.9 QB Rating). If you want to know who won that game, it was our running game and the defense that picked Cincy off 5 times.

He didn't manage the offense very well (in the season) if he didn't complete 50% of his passes. That's not acceptable to me. He didn't manage the offense very well if he had more turnovers than TDs. I don't need 300 yards and three TDs. I need efficiency, especially from a team that primarily runs the ball. I would settle for 5-8 125 yards 0 TDs, 0 ints.

In a game like La-Monroe, where the Smith only had to throw the ball 5 times, gets sacked for a safety and we win 41-2, you're not going to convince me that it was his passing game that got us there.

In a game like Idaho, where Smith goes 3-14 with 50 yards, 0 TDs, 2 ints... you're not going to convince me it was his poise and passing ability that got us the 10-0 win.

Both of these were LATE SEASON games.

He did EXCELLENT against MTSU and I'll even give him NMSU for his efficiency, but if you want to compare, the only thing that Smith has over Hall is WINS, and I've shown how that's misleading.

It bothers ME when people write threads like this, stating that Smith should start OVER HALL simply because of our wins from last year, and act like he lit it up vs. Cincinnatti.

They make a lot of statements that have no merit. SMITH is a better passer (despite his lower QB Rating). He's got a better arm (despite a lower yards/completion). He's more mobile (are you joking? Hall ran for 300 yards and 4 TDs his sophomore year).

By saying that Smith should start, and giving him credit for the wins, it means you're granting Hall credit for the losses his sophomore year, despite the fact that our offensive line, defense, and running game were much worse in 2001 than they were in 2002. That, and we didn't play a Div. I-AA team in 2001.

Do you really want me to compare our defense and running game in 2001 and 2002? First of all, Hall was a BIG PART of the running game in 2001. We had less yardage and less than half the TDs on the ground (not counting Hall) in 2001 than we did in 2002.

Our defense was ranked about 50 spots lower in 2001 than it was in 2002. We allowed more than 300 yards of offense on a number of occasions, including teams like Troy State and in the bowl game against CSU. Our PASSING game, however, was much better in 2001 than it was in 2002, in efficiency... not just yardage.

It also bothers me when people assume that just because I think Hall should start and that he's a better runner and passer, that I'll be rooting against Smith. If Smith gets the starting job, I PRAY I'm proven wrong on this, and that he lights it up.

To assume otherwise is both childish and ridiculous. I'm a Mean Green fan, kids - not a Hall or Smith fan.

That said, we're NOT going to be able to win games against quality opponents with inconsistency at QB. Remember USF last year? They stopped our running game and we were forced to put it into Smith's hands. It wasn't pretty. I feel we SETTLED for 8 wins last year. We SETTLED for just winning the Sun Belt. People want to go with the hot hand, and that's the only reason I can see wanting Smith to play. However, it's illogical.

[Cerebus]

This thread is getting old and repetitive, I am locking it, unless your name is Darell Dickey, don't even both asking me to unlock it.

Word to the wise, I don't want to see another Smith-Hall thread until after the Baylor game.