My my how things change

[emmitt01]

If some of you will recall, we had a few players arrested for shoplifting in December of 2012. The reactions on this board were myriad. All of the opinions were valid, though not all of them remained consistent just 5 months later. Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we?

KRAM1 12/15/12

“I understand some kid who was just 20 committed a pretty horrible crime today up in Conn. Going to excuse him because he is "just a kid"?
No, not comparing the two crimes at all...just commenting on the ridiculous comment about being 19 and as such should somehow be excused for breaking the law....like they had no idea that stealing was against the law and wrong....sure, right.”

So, we should expect kids to know right from wrong? Ok, fair enough. But what if they were from a bad environment? KRAM, thoughts?

“So tired of this lame excuse for illegal behavior. These two players knew what they were doing was against the aw and Wrong.....loving households or not. Apologist thinking at it worst...this is the type of thinking that allows this crap to go on.....ridiculous. And, this really is a kick in the teeth to all those who grew up in such households but were fully aware of right and wrong and chose right.”

Oh, so there is basically no excuse then? I mean you've never been in trouble, right KRAM?

“Nope never ever..other than traffic ticket....and a minor in possession of alcoholic beverages while in HS. Stealing is an entirely different matter than a beer as a HS student with some pals and a speeding ticket or two. So, nope! Never have seen the inside of a jail house...except a tour of Alcatraz once. Same for my kids, etc. somehow we seemed to learn that stealing was wrong on several levels. Imagine that....I too hope it was a brief moment of insanity. Not indicting their overall character...I am more commenting on the folks here who want to give them a pass. My guess...they have had several passes in their lives....this is nothing new for some HS football stars, etc. they seem to get away with all sorts of stuff. Some time or other that "getting away with it" stops. Hopefully before they make too big of a mistake. People excusing this crap is what creates a feeling that they can get away with this sort of crap.”

I see. So we should certainly believe that a kid who is on his, say, 4th arrest should know better? We should be offended that a kid like this is representing our university! Right, KRAM? I mean, it's not like we should just keep our opinions to ourselves and let the coaches sort it out, right?

KRAM1 5/4/13

“Nor should Mac ask any of us for an opinion on how this should be handled. What I am sure about is that Mac is none to happy about young Me. Abbe's choices in the recent past. It will get handled, one way or the other, and some will think it was handled properly and some will not. But, it will be handled to the "satisfaction" of the folks actually involved. Tough calls to make...am very happy i am not the one actually having to make the call about Abbe's football future at UNT.”

But surely KRAM is the only one who has flip flopped. Surely.

GreenJoe 12/15/12

“The only mistake they made was getting caught. They knew they were stealing. That's why they tried to cover up their theft by stuffing the loot in a backpack. That's the definition of a thief. One that steals. These thieves embarrassed me this morning. These thieves play for my University. Kick them off the team and maybe the other football players at the University of North Texas will notice and not become thieves themselves.”

GreenJoe 5/3/13

"Which is worse in the eyes of the Mean Green fans; Shoplifting (theft) or driving under the influence of alcohol ? Abbé is a senior. Is he over 21 ?"

Is his age really relevant? I mean, once a drunk driver always a drunk driver...or is that pathological compulsion only true of "thieves"? And where is the furor that we once saw? Shouldn't we be trying to protect the sanctity of our fine university in this case as well?

Maybe, though, it's just these two.

97and03 12/16/12

“Kick them off the team. Period.

Right now, playing football and representing UNT is their job. I would be fired from my job if I did this, and so would many of you.

They knew what they were doing was wrong if they were stuffing merchandise into a backpack.”

So, again, we need to take the hard line approach apparently. Surely there isn't a softening of this stance just a few months later....

97and03 5/4/13

“Been there. Learned from it. Moved on.

We all make mistakes. This is more serious than putting a sweatshirt in your backpack and the multiple violations are troublesome. Coach will make the call and I can live with either decision, though because of the position I will be honest and say I hope he lets him back. But I would certainly understand if he didn't. From the photo, you have to say "guilty" but we all know that legal guilt depends on your lawyer and the judge, not necessarily the facts. So if he gets out of a conviction because he has a good lawyer, do you still kick him off the team? I can't see ending his career if he is declared innocent. You can bet he would still be punished though.”

Hmmm

Awww shucks, surely someone who actually works in the legal profession like me wouldn't take a soft stance on drinking and driving, right?

UNT90 12/16/12

“And, most importantly of all, I'm sure no one on here has EVER driven when they were over the legal limit of .08, right? Guess what, that is EXACTLY the same level of offense as this theft. But, of course, this theft didn't involve putting others in danger the way your innocent "I'm OK to drive" DWI violation did, regardless of whether you were caught or not.”

There ya go. Let these people know that drinking and driving is dangerous!! Point out that the innocent civilian body count from shoplifting is pretty much nil. And, hey, let's not back pedal on this....

UNT90 5/4/13

“Kids make dumb decisions. Sometimes they make 4 of them.

He is not beating up women or children. He is not robbing someone at knifepoint or gunpoint.he is not raping co-eds or dealing drugs.

He has done what I bet a majority on this board did in their youth. He just got caught.”

I'm a little confused here. Why would we be so harsh on Jimmerson and Warner and not on Abbe? Because Abbe is considered vital to his position and Jimmerson isn't? No. Pretty sure Jim Jim is being counted on to perhaps be our featured back. Because what Abbe did isn't as dangerous to the general public? Ummm, no. Because Jimmerson and Warner are career criminals with multiple prior arrests? Uhhhh.... Then why is it? I wonder.

Am I saying that Abbe should be booted from the team? Nope. Am I saying that he is a hardened criminal? Again, nope. But I am a bit amused by the fact that we should, in the words of another poster "save the righteous indignation", when we were oh so quick to condemn just last December.

North Texas...where there would be no standards if not for double standards.

[MDH]

Edited May 5, 2013 by MDH

[Green Crazy]

You never answered the question. Why would they be so harsh on jimmerson and Warner and not on abbe? Don't tease us like that.

[meangreener]

I love you guys. The negativity is draining but the drama keeps me coming back. Like a cancer.

[foutsrouts]

If some of you will recall, we had a few players arrested for shoplifting in December of 2012. The reactions on this board were myriad. All of the opinions were valid, though not all of them remained consistent just 5 months later. Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we?

KRAM1 12/15/12

“I understand some kid who was just 20 committed a pretty horrible crime today up in Conn. Going to excuse him because he is "just a kid"?

No, not comparing the two crimes at all...just commenting on the ridiculous comment about being 19 and as such should somehow be excused for breaking the law....like they had no idea that stealing was against the law and wrong....sure, right.”

So, we should expect kids to know right from wrong? Ok, fair enough. But what if they were from a bad environment? KRAM, thoughts?

“So tired of this lame excuse for illegal behavior. These two players knew what they were doing was against the aw and Wrong.....loving households or not. Apologist thinking at it worst...this is the type of thinking that allows this crap to go on.....ridiculous. And, this really is a kick in the teeth to all those who grew up in such households but were fully aware of right and wrong and chose right.”

Oh, so there is basically no excuse then? I mean you've never been in trouble, right KRAM?

“Nope never ever..other than traffic ticket....and a minor in possession of alcoholic beverages while in HS. Stealing is an entirely different matter than a beer as a HS student with some pals and a speeding ticket or two. So, nope! Never have seen the inside of a jail house...except a tour of Alcatraz once. Same for my kids, etc. somehow we seemed to learn that stealing was wrong on several levels. Imagine that....I too hope it was a brief moment of insanity. Not indicting their overall character...I am more commenting on the folks here who want to give them a pass. My guess...they have had several passes in their lives....this is nothing new for some HS football stars, etc. they seem to get away with all sorts of stuff. Some time or other that "getting away with it" stops. Hopefully before they make too big of a mistake. People excusing this crap is what creates a feeling that they can get away with this sort of crap.”

I see. So we should certainly believe that a kid who is on his, say, 4th arrest should know better? We should be offended that a kid like this is representing our university! Right, KRAM? I mean, it's not like we should just keep our opinions to ourselves and let the coaches sort it out, right?

KRAM1 5/4/13

“Nor should Mac ask any of us for an opinion on how this should be handled. What I am sure about is that Mac is none to happy about young Me. Abbe's choices in the recent past. It will get handled, one way or the other, and some will think it was handled properly and some will not. But, it will be handled to the "satisfaction" of the folks actually involved. Tough calls to make...am very happy i am not the one actually having to make the call about Abbe's football future at UNT.”

But surely KRAM is the only one who has flip flopped. Surely.

GreenJoe 12/15/12

“The only mistake they made was getting caught. They knew they were stealing. That's why they tried to cover up their theft by stuffing the loot in a backpack. That's the definition of a thief. One that steals. These thieves embarrassed me this morning. These thieves play for my University. Kick them off the team and maybe the other football players at the University of North Texas will notice and not become thieves themselves.”

GreenJoe 5/3/13

"Which is worse in the eyes of the Mean Green fans; Shoplifting (theft) or driving under the influence of alcohol ? Abbé is a senior. Is he over 21 ?"

Is his age really relevant? I mean, once a drunk driver always a drunk driver...or is that pathological compulsion only true of "thieves"? And where is the furor that we once saw? Shouldn't we be trying to protect the sanctity of our fine university in this case as well?

Maybe, though, it's just these two.

97and03 12/16/12

“Kick them off the team. Period.

Right now, playing football and representing UNT is their job. I would be fired from my job if I did this, and so would many of you.

They knew what they were doing was wrong if they were stuffing merchandise into a backpack.”

So, again, we need to take the hard line approach apparently. Surely there isn't a softening of this stance just a few months later....

97and03 5/4/13

“Been there. Learned from it. Moved on.

We all make mistakes. This is more serious than putting a sweatshirt in your backpack and the multiple violations are troublesome. Coach will make the call and I can live with either decision, though because of the position I will be honest and say I hope he lets him back. But I would certainly understand if he didn't. From the photo, you have to say "guilty" but we all know that legal guilt depends on your lawyer and the judge, not necessarily the facts. So if he gets out of a conviction because he has a good lawyer, do you still kick him off the team? I can't see ending his career if he is declared innocent. You can bet he would still be punished though.”

Hmmm

Awww shucks, surely someone who actually works in the legal profession like me wouldn't take a soft stance on drinking and driving, right?

UNT90 12/16/12

“And, most importantly of all, I'm sure no one on here has EVER driven when they were over the legal limit of .08, right? Guess what, that is EXACTLY the same level of offense as this theft. But, of course, this theft didn't involve putting others in danger the way your innocent "I'm OK to drive" DWI violation did, regardless of whether you were caught or not.”

There ya go. Let these people know that drinking and driving is dangerous!! Point out that the innocent civilian body count from shoplifting is pretty much nil. And, hey, let's not back pedal on this....

UNT90 5/4/13

“Kids make dumb decisions. Sometimes they make 4 of them.

He is not beating up women or children. He is not robbing someone at knifepoint or gunpoint.he is not raping co-eds or dealing drugs.

He has done what I bet a majority on this board did in their youth. He just got caught.”

I'm a little confused here. Why would we be so harsh on Jimmerson and Warner and not on Abbe? Because Abbe is considered vital to his position and Jimmerson isn't? No. Pretty sure Jim Jim is being counted on to perhaps be our featured back. Because what Abbe did isn't as dangerous to the general public? Ummm, no. Because Jimmerson and Warner are career criminals with multiple prior arrests? Uhhhh.... Then why is it? I wonder.

Am I saying that Abbe should be booted from the team? Nope. Am I saying that he is a hardened criminal? Again, nope. But I am a bit amused by the fact that we should, in the words of another poster "save the righteous indignation", when we were oh so quick to condemn just last December.

North Texas...where there would be no standards if not for double standards.

And the point is? You could dig up my posts too ya know.

[drex]

We are so lucky to have emmitt...he is kinda Hammarabi, Soloman and Justinian all rolled up into one.

[Dr. Seuss]

Here's my only stance..

I'm a broker for a financial firm, our company won't hire thieves but they'll look the other way if you have a DWI. If FIRNA and the SEC don't need to disclose DWI's but they will disclose a a thief incident on broker check, I guess it's not that bad

[FroggyStyle]

Since nobody else is gonna say it, I will. Their opinions flip flopped because Warner and Jimmerson are black and Abbe is whte.

[DeepGreen]

Just what we needed to know, froggy.

[foutsrouts]

Not that I'm defending anybody, but anyone with a professional state or federal license knows that theft is considered a crime of moral turpitude while DWI generally is not. Not that DWI can't lead to more dire consequences, but so can making love to your cell phone.

[MDH]

Since nobody else is gonna say it, I will. Their opinions flip flopped because Warner and Jimmerson are black and Abbe is whte.

[MeanGreen61]

Is there a good reason to continually bring this stuff up and reliving events of the past? Every school has kids who will make mistakes. Every school has their own way of dealing with these kids. Every school has a poster or some posters who want to be judge, jury and executioner even though they do not have all the facts or all the info on what's happening.

Edited May 5, 2013 by MeanGreen61

[UNT90]

If some of you will recall, we had a few players arrested for shoplifting in December of 2012. The reactions on this board were myriad. All of the opinions were valid, though not all of them remained consistent just 5 months later. Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we?

KRAM1 12/15/12

I understand some kid who was just 20 committed a pretty horrible crime today up in Conn. Going to excuse him because he is "just a kid"?

No, not comparing the two crimes at all...just commenting on the ridiculous comment about being 19 and as such should somehow be excused for breaking the law....like they had no idea that stealing was against the law and wrong....sure, right.

So, we should expect kids to know right from wrong? Ok, fair enough. But what if they were from a bad environment? KRAM, thoughts?

So tired of this lame excuse for illegal behavior. These two players knew what they were doing was against the aw and Wrong.....loving households or not. Apologist thinking at it worst...this is the type of thinking that allows this crap to go on.....ridiculous. And, this really is a kick in the teeth to all those who grew up in such households but were fully aware of right and wrong and chose right.

Oh, so there is basically no excuse then? I mean you've never been in trouble, right KRAM?

Nope never ever..other than traffic ticket....and a minor in possession of alcoholic beverages while in HS. Stealing is an entirely different matter than a beer as a HS student with some pals and a speeding ticket or two. So, nope! Never have seen the inside of a jail house...except a tour of Alcatraz once. Same for my kids, etc. somehow we seemed to learn that stealing was wrong on several levels. Imagine that....I too hope it was a brief moment of insanity. Not indicting their overall character...I am more commenting on the folks here who want to give them a pass. My guess...they have had several passes in their lives....this is nothing new for some HS football stars, etc. they seem to get away with all sorts of stuff. Some time or other that "getting away with it" stops. Hopefully before they make too big of a mistake. People excusing this crap is what creates a feeling that they can get away with this sort of crap.

I see. So we should certainly believe that a kid who is on his, say, 4th arrest should know better? We should be offended that a kid like this is representing our university! Right, KRAM? I mean, it's not like we should just keep our opinions to ourselves and let the coaches sort it out, right?

KRAM1 5/4/13

Nor should Mac ask any of us for an opinion on how this should be handled. What I am sure about is that Mac is none to happy about young Me. Abbe's choices in the recent past. It will get handled, one way or the other, and some will think it was handled properly and some will not. But, it will be handled to the "satisfaction" of the folks actually involved. Tough calls to make...am very happy i am not the one actually having to make the call about Abbe's football future at UNT.

But surely KRAM is the only one who has flip flopped. Surely.

GreenJoe 12/15/12

The only mistake they made was getting caught. They knew they were stealing. That's why they tried to cover up their theft by stuffing the loot in a backpack. That's the definition of a thief. One that steals. These thieves embarrassed me this morning. These thieves play for my University. Kick them off the team and maybe the other football players at the University of North Texas will notice and not become thieves themselves.

GreenJoe 5/3/13

"Which is worse in the eyes of the Mean Green fans; Shoplifting (theft) or driving under the influence of alcohol ? Abbé is a senior. Is he over 21 ?"

Is his age really relevant? I mean, once a drunk driver always a drunk driver...or is that pathological compulsion only true of "thieves"? And where is the furor that we once saw? Shouldn't we be trying to protect the sanctity of our fine university in this case as well?

Maybe, though, it's just these two.

97and03 12/16/12

Kick them off the team. Period.

Right now, playing football and representing UNT is their job. I would be fired from my job if I did this, and so would many of you.

They knew what they were doing was wrong if they were stuffing merchandise into a backpack.

So, again, we need to take the hard line approach apparently. Surely there isn't a softening of this stance just a few months later....

97and03 5/4/13

Been there. Learned from it. Moved on.

We all make mistakes. This is more serious than putting a sweatshirt in your backpack and the multiple violations are troublesome. Coach will make the call and I can live with either decision, though because of the position I will be honest and say I hope he lets him back. But I would certainly understand if he didn't. From the photo, you have to say "guilty" but we all know that legal guilt depends on your lawyer and the judge, not necessarily the facts. So if he gets out of a conviction because he has a good lawyer, do you still kick him off the team? I can't see ending his career if he is declared innocent. You can bet he would still be punished though.

Hmmm

Awww shucks, surely someone who actually works in the legal profession like me wouldn't take a soft stance on drinking and driving, right?

UNT90 12/16/12

And, most importantly of all, I'm sure no one on here has EVER driven when they were over the legal limit of .08, right? Guess what, that is EXACTLY the same level of offense as this theft. But, of course, this theft didn't involve putting others in danger the way your innocent "I'm OK to drive" DWI violation did, regardless of whether you were caught or not.

There ya go. Let these people know that drinking and driving is dangerous!! Point out that the innocent civilian body count from shoplifting is pretty much nil. And, hey, let's not back pedal on this....

UNT90 5/4/13

Kids make dumb decisions. Sometimes they make 4 of them.

He is not beating up women or children. He is not robbing someone at knifepoint or gunpoint.he is not raping co-eds or dealing drugs.

He has done what I bet a majority on this board did in their youth. He just got caught.

I'm a little confused here. Why would we be so harsh on Jimmerson and Warner and not on Abbe? Because Abbe is considered vital to his position and Jimmerson isn't? No. Pretty sure Jim Jim is being counted on to perhaps be our featured back. Because what Abbe did isn't as dangerous to the general public? Ummm, no. Because Jimmerson and Warner are career criminals with multiple prior arrests? Uhhhh.... Then why is it? I wonder.

Am I saying that Abbe should be booted from the team? Nope. Am I saying that he is a hardened criminal? Again, nope. But I am a bit amused by the fact that we should, in the words of another poster "save the righteous indignation", when we were oh so quick to condemn just last December.

North Texas...where there would be no standards if not for double standards.

Think I'm pretty consistent. I said in December that DWI wasn't anything that just about everyone on here had done as a young lad, just as shoplifting was a stupid decision made by youth, so is DWI. I didn't call for either to be kicked off the team. Yes, DWI is worse than shoplifting on my book because you could hurt someone. But theft is a crime of moral terpitude under Texas law, so I guess they both have there drawbacks:

http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/what-is-a-crime-of-moral-turpitude-texas

Point is, I didn't vilify either of parties involved in either of these embarrassing incidents.

I know what you are going for here, and believe it or not, I actually agree with you.

I think you are taking the wrong tact, though. You should go back and find the posts from Benford defenders that basically called basketball players in good standing, not committing theft or DWI, a bunch of lazy no good malcontents and compare those to the statements about Abby.

That is where you true gold lies, grasshopper.

[HoustonEagle]

Spending time worrying about what everyone says on this board is not time well spent.

[emmitt01]

Who said anything about race? Not I.

Course, as a superior of mine once told me "A guilty conscience needs no accuser"

[Green Crazy]

Who said anything about race? Not I.

Course, as a superior of mine once told me "A guilty conscience needs no accuser"

Come on. You'll put together a post that's length can only be rivaled by something plummmeangreen would do and spend God knows how long putting it together, but you won't finish the job? Just say the words.

[UNTexas]

Since nobody else is gonna say it, I will. Their opinions flip flopped because Warner and Jimmerson are black and Abbe is whte.

FroggyStyle finally made me laugh! I don't know if I agree but it's funny and may be true.

I think theft is more serious than a traffic violation. Premeditation versus drunken decision making. Most college kids drink and make stupid decisions. Theft is bs though. Either way players can screw up and shouldn't be kicked off unless they are habitual line steppers. It's not like the aforementioned characters committed felonies. If anyone gets kicked off the team I hope it is because of the totality of circumstances.

Edited May 5, 2013 by UNTexas

[emmitt01]

FroggyStyle finally made me laugh! I don't know if I agree but it's funny and may be true.

I think theft is more serious than a traffic violation. Premeditation versus drunken decision making. Most college kids drink and make stupid decisions. Theft is bs though. Either way players can screw up and shouldn't be kicked off unless they are habitual line steppers. It's not like the aforementioned characters committed felonies. If anyone gets kicked off the team I hope it is because of the totality of circumstances.

+1 for "habitual line stepper"

[UNT90]

I'm a little confused here. Why would we be so harsh on Jimmerson and Warner and not on Abbe? Because Abbe is considered vital to his position and Jimmerson isn't? No. Pretty sure Jim Jim is being counted on to perhaps be our featured back. Because what Abbe did isn't as dangerous to the general public? Ummm, no. Because Jimmerson and Warner are career criminals with multiple prior arrests? Uhhhh.... Then why is it? I wonder.

Am I saying that Abbe should be booted from the team? Nope. Am I saying that he is a hardened criminal? Again, nope. But I am a bit amused by the fact that we should, in the words of another poster "save the righteous indignation", when we were oh so quick to condemn just last December.

North Texas...where there would be no standards if not for double standards.

Didn't read this part fully the first time through.

SHOW ME ANYWHERE ON THIS BOARD WHERE I CALLED FOR ABBEY (A WHITE PLAYER) TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY FROM JIMMERSON (A BLACK PLAYER).

You can't, because it's not there. And if your gonna make the allegations, be honest and make them. Don't beat around the bush. Calling people racist, especially when they say "kids make mistakes and it's up to the coach" in both circumstances is weak, my friend.

Weak.

[KRAM1]

Man, that arm must really be sore.

[UNTLifer]

Who said anything about race? Not I.

Course, as a superior of mine once told me "A guilty conscience needs no accuser"

Taking a page out of the John Wiley Price, Al Lipscomb, Diane Ragsdale playbook officer? It is called baiting, and you appear to be masterful. Pun intended.

Edited May 6, 2013 by UNTLifer

[emmitt01]

Lot of conjecture going around here. I just asked a simple question "Why the rush to condemn two players and not the third?" If you see it as a racial issue that's your spin...I can't assume your motives. It's not my job to both ask and answer for you.

Or, am I to assume that because I'm black that race is the only card I am able to play? If that's your assumption (Lifer et al) then, yes, I will call you on that.

I wonder, if TTG or Zeke or CMJ had done the research and pointed out the blatant double standard applied reacting to December's arrests and this months...would we have a line of people conjuring up the names of every civil rights leader they can to compare them to? If they questioned why we wanted to boot two kids from the team for theft (body count of zero that I can think of) and "save our indignation" for a kid that drives drunk (a crime that kills so many there's a group of mothers specifically against it) would we assume that those white guys were playing the race card?

I never accused any of you of being racist, your words not mine. I just said you were hypocrites...a charge that 97and03 freely and maturely owns up to. I am amused though that when a lay out a cogent argument your only response is "It's all about race with YOU PEOPLE"

Edited May 6, 2013 by emmitt01

[KRAM1]

Now it's defensive time...hard to do with a hurt arm.

[TheTastyGreek]

I wonder, if TTG or Zeke or CMJ had done the research

If I'd done the research, I think we'd all have a few drinks, joke around a little bit (I am a big, goofy guy, after all), and chalk it up to some harmless investigative fun. Sure, there might be fallout and consequences from what I came up with... But I think we'd trust Harry to review things on his own time, and come to a wise, informed decision. Patient and forgiving? Swift and decisive? I don't know. WE don't know. And frankly, it's none of our business. Not for us to worry about. All we'd need to think about was how much we could trust Harry to handle it appropriately, after thorough and reasonable consideration.

But, for some reason... You doing this research is more scary and intimidating. I may not know why or how you did this research, but the fact that another police officer might have been involved along with you makes it even more frightening. Frankly, I don't NEED to know why you came up with all this. All I need to know is that I'm terrified, and something must be done to make sure you never, ever have the opportunity to do this sort of investigating ever again.

In a situation like this, I don't think it's reasonable to leave things up to Harry. I'm going to go with my totally unbiased gut reaction, and demand that you never, ever be allowed to use the search function on this forum ever again. No second chances. You've proven you can't be responsible with it, and I'll sleep a lot more soundly knowing that you're not going to have the chance to embarrass this forum ever again with your reckless, immature, and irresponsible searching and quoting.

A lot of people donate to this forum to keep it running. They are the reason you even have the opportunity to search old posts. Your behavior has hurt and embarrassed not only yourself, but all those generous, upstanding, law-abiding GMG supporters. I'm a reasonable guy... I'm DEFINITELY not saying you ought to have your eyes gouged out and your fingers cut off as a sign to other police officers that they'd better not get frisky and uppity in their searching and quoting. But I don't think there's any room in our civilized community for this sort of reckless, animalistic madness.

Frankly, I'm ashamed. Ashamed of you, and ashamed FOR you. I only hope that your behavior hasn't driven any forum members away from our happy community.

...because I have a pretty neat research project coming up soon. I think they're going to love it.

[Green Crazy]

Lot of conjecture going around here. I just asked a simple question "Why the rush to condemn two players and not the third?" If you see it as a racial issue that's your spin...I can't assume your motives. It's not my job to both ask and answer for you.

Or, am I to assume that because I'm black that race is the only card I am able to play? If that's your assumption (Lifer et al) then, yes, I will call you on that.

I wonder, if TTG or Zeke or CMJ had done the research and pointed out the blatant double standard applied reacting to December's arrests and this months...would we have a line of people conjuring up the names of every civil rights leader they can to compare them to? If they questioned why we wanted to boot two kids from the team for theft (body count of zero that I can think of) and "save our indignation" for a kid that drives drunk (a crime that kills so many there's a group of mothers specifically against it) would we assume that those white guys were playing the race card?

I never accused any of you of being racist, your words not mine. I just said you were hypocrites...a charge that 97and03 freely and maturely owns up to. I am amused though that when a lay out a cogent argument your only response is "It's all about race with YOU PEOPLE"

So, you eliminate all other reasons for this double standard but one and then wonder why people come to this conclusion? If you didn't want people to think this, then why lead them down that road?

You're a detective, if you were presented evidence like this what would you of thought? Honestly.