For those who question the commitment

[Eagle61]

As someone that works for a "brick and mortar retailer" I'm curious what you have to say about how brick and mortar companies are competing with Amazon.

This thread has certainly taken a wrong turn somewhere and I sorry for that, probably my fault.

Amazon has an unfair advantage over B&M retailers because of the sales tax, which is being corrected in some states. Buyers can come to your store, find what they want and shop on-line. Same item, cheaper price. I'm impatient, I buy in the store, which is the advantage that the B&M retailers have. Best Buy was given up for dead, but they have made a comeback. I don't buy on-line, so I am all for leveling the playing field. My point about UNT is that you can get many degrees from WGU at a cheaper price than UNT. I think WGU was founded by states and is not a for profit instiution, I could be wrong. B&M universities could be pricing themselves out of the market. It would only be students who wanted the "experience" that would attend. We have a lot of students who only want the degree and could care less about our athletics. Witness the attendance at the games. I think we haven't had 2500 students at a basketball game in 10 years. So there are about 32,000 who aren't using the fee they pay.

[UNTFan23]

This thread has certainly taken a wrong turn somewhere and I sorry for that, probably my fault.

Amazon has an unfair advantage over B&M retailers because of the sales tax, which is being corrected in some states. Buyers can come to your store, find what they want and shop on-line. Same item, cheaper price. I'm impatient, I buy in the store, which is the advantage that the B&M retailers have. Best Buy was given up for dead, but they have made a comeback. I don't buy on-line, so I am all for leveling the playing field.

Legislation is working its way through Congress to have sales tax charged for retailers that only have an online presence. Amazon's advantage is on the clock.

Also, B&M retailers are working with vendors to carry exclusive versions of products that are susceptible to show-rooming (Electronics is just one category).

Some B&M retailers offer same day delivery. This is dependent on whether the product is available for purchase at the store you choose to pick up the goods from though. Additionally, you can get this service without paying any shipping charges.

As to the other piece of your post, I think whether WGU-Texas is successful will depend on whether or not employers will hire the school's grads. Cheap tuition does not ensure a good job coming out of graduation.

[meangreener]

Have you ever looked at the hiring rate for Internet grads? It's awful. They can't find a job because everyone sees it for what it is. That's an unfair comparison and a wrong one since the death of B&M is Amazon shill boloney anyway.

Edited April 26, 2013 by meangreener

[KRAM1]

Well, her father never said anything much, he skipped out at birth. Her mom (my niece) won't be able to affort $17 - $20k per year for UNT. and there are going to be a lot more students like this. Things change quickly, UNT could become like the brick and mortar retailers competing with Amazon.

Yea...that was a dumb post on my part ... Not knowing the situation at all. Have to apologize, but as to the fees...might want to check fees at other universities. UNT's overall cost is Very competitive and still a bargain when compared to comparable 4-year universities. Plus, lots of scholarships for "need" and academic achievement. Many students at UNT are not paying the full "fare" ... As you know.

UNT is already looking into some pretty dramatic changes for the future in the way "education" will be delivered in the future. Many of these changes will benefit students in just the situation you note regarding your niece. Plus, going the JC route for the first two years is getting to be a very popular choice, and many of the Jucos now have very very good academic programs. All the best of luck to your niece.

[JesseMartin]

Just to clarify a couple of things and avoid confusion:

1) Unless you require students to vote (and let's face it, compulsory voting is not only difficult but can be argued is a violation of their rights if they choose to abstain), the percentage of voter turnout in our student elections is actually considerably higher than the average local election turnout, both in the City of Denton, Denton County, and nationwide. All are equally eligible to vote, but most have not yet learned to accept that making their vote a priority will help them be a part of the overall decision-making process. As we see with the national city/county/etc averages, many people never learn that. At least UNT students are already at a higher percentage than most other University and local electorates.

2) I hope it didn't seem like I was trying to persuade everyone to get students to file for fee waivers. There is a lot of paperwork involved and if you don't meet the state and University guidelines for a waiver, you end up wasting your time so it's good to check into the requirements before trying. I knew of a couple of people who got waivers before...but out of tens of thousands, I think I met two. So it's a pretty rare thing, but again, if you're eligible, won't want to use ANY of those services, and as UNTFan23 pointed out, want to have to pay at that time and maybe not even sit with your friends, that's your choice. It's important to know both sides of the situation before even considering it.

[untjim1995]

I really don't want this thread to go away...so I am bumping it up, if for nothing else than to give others the chance to read TTG's epic post.

[dahbeed]

the tasty greek and i go back to the sbc tourney in mobile.

that was one hella post and not because he used western. he just kept it real. people don't want to hear real sometimes.

and i brought real to our board when i was sure mcdummy was killing our program. he literally set our program back 5 years. ray harper did a miraculous job getting us back to 'respectable' but it will be 2 more years of recruiting to get back pre-mcdummy.

we caught a lot of hell in the state media for firing eLLLLLLLLLLLLson and the dummy in season. but the president realized he was rapidly losing his fanbases in both sports. he stood to lose more money than he was saving by not firing them.

we still have plenty of problems but right now the 2 major sports seem to be on fairly solid ground. during the eLLLLLLLLLLLson debacle we were the butt of national jokes with the 0-26 streak.

during the mcdummy slide we just became irrelevant. i wish the mean green the best. us topper fans always felt like ya'll at least cared about hoops unlike the majority of the belt. glad to soon be in the same conference again. coosa is definitely a step up in hoops.

ttg knows my heart goes out. i suffered through the dummy but i knew we'd eventually run him off and start the climb back up.

sincerely,

dahbeed.

[GrandGreen]

The facts are that most non-top athletic programs are functioning because of student fees. I hate to break it to some, but that has been the case at NT for decades. They may not have had named athletic fees but it was student money that kept the program afloat.

I think you can make a very strong case that the athletic arms race is ridiculous and unfair to the majority of students at most schools who don't give a fig about sports. However, I think it is also true especially in Texas that if you don't play fb division football that the entire school suffers.

[untjim1995]

the tasty greek and i go back to the sbc tourney in mobile.

that was one hella post and not because he used western. he just kept it real. people don't want to hear real sometimes.

and i brought real to our board when i was sure mcdummy was killing our program. he literally set our program back 5 years. ray harper did a miraculous job getting us back to 'respectable' but it will be 2 more years of recruiting to get back pre-mcdummy.

we caught a lot of hell in the state media for firing eLLLLLLLLLLLLson and the dummy in season. but the president realized he was rapidly losing his fanbases in both sports. he stood to lose more money than he was saving by not firing them.

we still have plenty of problems but right now the 2 major sports seem to be on fairly solid ground. during the eLLLLLLLLLLLson debacle we were the butt of national jokes with the 0-26 streak.

during the mcdummy slide we just became irrelevant. i wish the mean green the best. us topper fans always felt like ya'll at least cared about hoops unlike the majority of the belt. glad to soon be in the same conference again. coosa is definitely a step up in hoops.

ttg knows my heart goes out. i suffered through the dummy but i knew we'd eventually run him off and start the climb back up.

sincerely,

dahbeed.

You know, the deal with McDonald at WKU was that he obviously was living off of Horn's recruiting and success, but having Ray Harper there was why WKU could afford to make the change they made. They had a coach-in-waiting already on staff. We replaced Johnny Jones with a longtime assistant coach who had no connection to the unviersity or its players currently on the team, just like y'all did with McDonald. It rarely works. Ray Harper had been a very successful coach before he went to WKU. Now, he has managed to pull a rabbit out of the hat in the last two seasons just to get into the tournament, but he has proven his worth. WKU will be good to great again very soon.

We blew our chance at this. If we could have gotten a name coach here who had skins on the wall, even at a lower level, I'm convinced we would have still been able to compete for the SBC title last year. Now,we are just cooked. We have a guy in Benford that is so obviously in over his head that his on-the-job training count possibly pay off until he has at least 3 years under his belt, which is the most optimistic I can be. I even doubt that will occur, but that will be his lifeline for why the university brings him back for that 4th year of his contract (ala Trilli and Dodge).

I look forward to seeing how WKU does over the next few years under Harper's leadership. Y'all have a very bright future with him at the helm. I think you will continue to be a contender for NCAA bids and NIT bids for many years to come. I'm envious of you, big time, but your school cares very much about the connection to athletic success and the way it supports the entire university. We don't--probably because we have never really seen how those two can work together. As a matter of fact, we have done everything possible to keep those two from really ever intertwining. We prefer fundraising connections form our music and arts departments, which are top notch, apparently. To each their own, I suppose, but I sure wish my alma mater cared about sports like WKU does, much less how every other school in Texas does.

Edited May 2, 2013 by untjim1995

[flyonthewall]

We prefer fundraising connections form our music and arts departments, which are top notch, apparently. To each their own, I suppose, but I sure wish my alma mater cared about sports like WKU does, much less how every other school in Texas does.

Our music and arts departments raise very little money. I have to say you are just wrong on this. And to say your alma mater doesn't care about sports more than WKU is crazy. Our basketball coach left on his own accord, to go back to the one and only job he ever really wanted. There is nothing we could have ever done about that. We could have offered him the same money and he still would have left.

Show me how we don't care....By building apogee? Geeze, I freaking care!!!!! When you say your alma mater doesn't care you are slapping me in the face. You and I and the 1500 or say crazy faithfuls just have to keep preaching. We are light years ahead of where we were 10 years ago with infrastructure or "architecture" as John put it in his post. Give people tools to be successful.

But to say that your alma mater doesn't care is just wrong. Regents donating millions to athletics, some on record (C. Dan Smith, Ernie Kuehne, Gail Strange) and some off the record because they want it that way, but it is happening.

good lord we need some wins badly in football this year!

[untjim1995]

We prefer fundraising connections form our music and arts departments, which are top notch, apparently. To each their own, I suppose, but I sure wish my alma mater cared about sports like WKU does, much less how every other school in Texas does.

Our music and arts departments raise very little money. I have to say you are just wrong on this. And to say your alma mater doesn't care about sports more than WKU is crazy. Our basketball coach left on his own accord, to go back to the one and only job he ever really wanted. There is nothing we could have ever done about that. We could have offered him the same money and he still would have left.

Show me how we don't care....By building apogee? Geeze, I freaking care!!!!! When you say your alma mater doesn't care you are slapping me in the face. You and I and the 1500 or say crazy faithfuls just have to keep preaching. We are light years ahead of where we were 10 years ago with infrastructure or "architecture" as John put it in his post. Give people tools to be successful.

But to say that your alma mater doesn't care is just wrong. Regents donating millions to athletics, some on record (C. Dan Smith, Ernie Kuehne, Gail Strange) and some off the record because they want it that way, but it is happening.

good lord we need some wins badly in football this year!

Dude, we had to replace Fouts or football was going to end here. That place was running only be connecting multiple generators to it. Even then, it took basically a stealth vote to get it passed. Apogee had to be built for us to even keep a team. If that makes you feel like we care ENOUGH about athletics, then you an dI just have to agree to disagree here.

It has been well noted that this place didn't even try to allow major donors to have their information availble to be contacted by the athletic department so that the other areas of the university wouldn't suffer in donations.

You are right about JJ--I don't blame him or the university a bit, although you should know that he looked hard at the Auburn job, just becasue of the money, but they hired Tony Barbee from UTEP. Maybe he wouldn't have left here, but the money interested him greatly. I've never blamed the university for not trying to keep him here, though, since LSU is home for him. But I completely blame them for hiring an unknown assistant who has never been a head coach to take over the most talented team in the history of the school. That's buying cheap, my friend, which, in my book, is not being serious about athletics.

I've seen this place hire--and keep--Todd Dodge, Vic Trilli, and Shanice Stephens at the helm of the most important money sports. Not a one of them had ever been a head coach before. In the first two cases, we only fired those two when it was affordable enough to pay a buyout. That's not serious to me.

Ask anyone in the Metroplex what they know about UNT and the first two things that will probably get identified are the music department and being an educators' college. Very noble aspects, too. But, as you mentioned, they don't exactly bring in a ton of money in donations back to the university, nor do they provide very big opportunities for the university family to feel connected to this place like athletics can. But we haven't invested enough in either of the main sports to create theat connection. Hell, we told everyone that we would rather play 1-aa football than pay to stay above the line that literally nuked what was left of a fanbase in the early 80s. The local beat writer, Brett Vito, just told me the other day, as I posted, that the university needs to look at what they want with the football program if McCarney cannot turn it around here. He knows, just like everyone else in Denton knows, that if he cannot do it, that he cannot turn this thing into a winner, even though his reputation in the college world is known almost solely as a turnaround specialist, then the question exists as to whether you can build a winner here, since an unknown assistants, well-known high school coaches, and now a well-known college coach couldn't recruit and win here.

You may feel slapped in the face by my post, which is not my intent at all. Its really a slap in the face to the leadership here that continues to let us flounder as a quasi-FBS member with a FCS mentality. Apogee and the Spper Pit are awesome facilities, but they alone dont show me that the university is putting a priority on athletics--they tell mw that they can use those venues for all sorts of things besides just athletics. Personnel and payroll determine that, at least to me. We don't ever fire anyone until its affordable. We hire people mostly on the cheap, even if McCarney and Benford are the highest paid coaches in our history. Look around you and see how their salaries compare to other Texas schools. Western Kentucky gets it, as TTG pointed out so eloquently. They learned a long time ago how much athletics helped the entire university when they win at sports people care about. We care alot about music, arts, and education. All are great areas of society that are needed, but they don't create much of a difference in research, endowment, or connection back to the university. That's why so many here are upset at what has occurred recently. Its still small-time Denton thinking of athletics that a university of our size and location shouldn't still deal with. And the problem gets exacerbated when our friends at other schools in this state and the surrounding region always have a sport to brag about while we rarely do. Our mens hoops team was finally something to really celebrate--and poof, it was gone. Nuked by the reality of a school that just does things on the cheap when it comes to athletics and its personnel.

[flyonthewall]

Well at least you "duded" me. People don't "dude" me in my world. I am crawling back in it for a couple of more weeks until I just can't take any more again.

[Green P1]

Well at least you "duded" me. People don't "dude" me in my world. I am crawling back in it for a couple of more weeks until I just can't take any more again.

Dude... Your world sounds nice.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Well at least you "duded" me. People don't "dude" me in my world. I am crawling back in it for a couple of more weeks until I just can't take any more again.

Dude! You're getting a B-ball practice facility.

[flyonthewall]

Not getting, giving.

[UNT90]

Well at least you "duded" me. People don't "dude" me in my world. I am crawling back in it for a couple of more weeks until I just can't take any more again.

Jim pretty much said it all, but what do you honestly expect people to think when you hire a career assistant to lead "the most talented team in UNT history", that former assistants fails more miserably than anyone could have ever predicted, but you keep said former assistant because, apparently, you can't afford to fire him.

USM knew their football coach had to go.

WKU knew their basketball coach had to go.

But here at UNT, we accept failure because of the bottom line.

The problem isn't with Alums, because most of the alums have never had one damn thing to cheer about or a reason to donate, yet we still outdraw SMU.

The problem isn't the students, who voted to build a new stadium.

The problem is with the administration, who remain 20 to 30 years behind in how they view college athletics.

They only care about winning if it can be done on a shoestring budget.

[GrandGreen]

Lot of differing views and frustration as well as speculation. All conducive to lively discussions.

I am not sure anyone knows what were the motivations to either hire or keep Benford as HC. My guess is that Benford's connection to the players had as much to do with it as him being a relatively cheap hire. In hind sight, he was an awful choice, not close to being ready for the challenge at NT. I think that is apparent to almost everyone, the issue than becomes can he become a good coach. Obviously, RV thinks he can even with the handicap of a complete failure in his first year. Keeping Benford for strictly monetary reasons makes no sense IMO. I don't think any AD would kept a sure failure to just save a few dollars. Yes, in the world of current university finances; a million dollar is not big money. Remember JJ was making almost twice as much, so you hire another coach at Benford salary and pay Benford off and still be close to NT previous MBB hc budget. Not to mention buying a home game with Idaho, new basketball facilities, and the apparent beginning of a baseball program don't make it appear NT is so poor they can't raise the funds.

The reference to WKU is interesting, but in my mind not that good of a comparison. Ever wonder why they can fund more sports and in generally spend more money than most despite not having any better revenues? They get state support something that does not exist in Texas. Also they are much more a bb school than anyone in Texas, so terminating a bad basketball coach is not very surprising.

I also see a lot of blasts at the administration at NT for not caring enough about athletics at NT. Really, most of you with that opinion much be relatively young, because since Hurley's resignation; the President and BOR are much more supportive of athletes than any time before. If NT had the current level of support like almost all its Texas peers have had for decades, then NT would be much better off. The facts are that NT doesn't have the outside financial support of most of their Texas piers, but that too is slowly changing. There is a limit to what can be done.

In summary, I am like many not happy at all of the state of the basketball and football programs at NT. I don't agree with keeping Benford and I have been disappointed in a lot of facets of the football program and I even question whether RV is capable of moving NT forward. Brick and mortar are nice, but you need someone who makes sound personnel decisions and can create excitement in the program. Having said all that, I have not given up hope in NT athletics and I been following a lot of bad teams longer than most. I think next year will be a pivotal year for several key athletic personnel, but whatever happens NT athletics will survive. At least now, I believe NT has the resources to be competitive at the CUSA level if the right personnel are in key places.

[Shadesofgreen]

My guess is that Benford's connection to the players had as much to do with it as him being a relatively cheap hire.

No connection to players. Lack of respect from many. Look at players actions not words....

[DeepGreen]

Shanice Stephens - bad hire, no head coaching experience (but hey, she had a powerpoint presentation and came from "big time university")

Benford = bad hire, no head coaching experience; we didn't even give Danny Kaspar the courtesy of a call. And probably other "more qualifed head coaches. (but hey, Benford came from "big time basketball U", so head must be able to be a head coach)

McCarney = I'm giving him this year to get us a winning season (no. 3 for those counting) Didn't we have a shot at Francione and the ex-South Florida coach who would have loved to come to Denton? I'm sure there were others.

Todd Dodge = bad hire, no college head coaching experience, and he brought in a "crack team" of high school coaches as his assistants at the FBS level. Brilliant strategy! And I actually thought this hire "might" be worth a gamble, given Dodge's HS record and connections He definitely created a stir in Denton. Oh, I haven't been to Vegas since!

If we lose our head tennis coach, or men's golf coach, without offering them both a contract extension, then there is only one common denominator in the UNT athletics department. And we all know the answer.

Edited May 4, 2013 by DeepGreen

[GrandGreen]

No connection to players. Lack of respect from many. Look at players actions not words....

Why do you think the players reaction to a coach after he is hired, has anything to do with his hiring? IMO, one of the main reason for Benford's hire was that it was thought that he could kept the team in tow.

[UNT90]

I also see a lot of blasts at the administration at NT for not caring enough about athletics at NT. Really, most of you with that opinion much be relatively young, because since Hurley's resignation; the President and BOR are much more supportive of athletes than any time before. If NT had the current level of support like almost all its Texas peers have had for decades, then NT would be much better off. The facts are that NT doesn't have the outside financial support of most of their Texas piers, but that too is slowly changing. There is a limit to what can be done.

We have gone from basically openly scorning athletics to grudging acceptance.

I guess that's progress, but it isn't anywhere close to the TCU's of the world.

Hell, it isn't even close to the UTSA's of the world.

It's half-ass. It needs to change.

[TIgreen01]

Dude, we had to replace Fouts or football was going to end here. That place was running only be connecting multiple generators to it. Even then, it took basically a stealth vote to get it passed. Apogee had to be built for us to even keep a team. If that makes you feel like we care ENOUGH about athletics, then you an dI just have to agree to disagree here.

You keep repeating this and it's just plain wrong. The vote that ultimately passed the stadium athletic fee had the largest voter turnout that the school had ever seen (at least up until that time). I'll have to dig through old posts to find real numbers, but most student elections/referendums passed prior to that one with something like 1500 'for' votes and that one had twice that amount (if memory serves).

Alright, here's some results of a gmg search...

Here's UNTFlyer (the single most influential promoter/supporter of the athletic fee referendum) responding to a similar "stealth" claim that was also posted in the NT Daily:

And here's a link to the actual voting results:

Nearly 14% of our student body voted---which, historically speaking, qualifies as a high turnout percentage for a referendum voted on by the UNT student body.

Edited May 3, 2013 by TIgreen01

[TIgreen01]

I've always wondered how Benford's supposedly tight AAU connections could be limiting our options in terms of firing/reassigning him. You have to think that our administration has a finger on the pulse of that community.

[Harry]

You keep repeating this and it's just plain wrong. The vote that ultimately passed the stadium athletic fee had the largest voter turnout that the school had ever seen (at least up until that time). I'll have to dig through old posts to find real numbers, but most student elections/referendums passed prior to that one with something like 1500 'for' votes and that one had twice that amount (if memory serves).

Alright, here's some results of a gmg search...

Here's UNTFlyer (the single most influential promoter/supporter of the athletic fee referendum) responding to a similar "stealth" claim that was also posted in the NT Daily:

And here's a link to the actual voting results:

Nearly 14% of our student body voted---which, historically speaking, qualifies as a high turnout percentage for a referendum voted on by the UNT student body.

Enjoyed reading that thread again...thanks for finding it and thanks to Flyer for all of his efforts there.

[untjim1995]

You keep repeating this and it's just plain wrong. The vote that ultimately passed the stadium athletic fee had the largest voter turnout that the school had ever seen (at least up until that time). I'll have to dig through old posts to find real numbers, but most student elections/referendums passed prior to that one with something like 1500 'for' votes and that one had twice that amount (if memory serves).

Alright, here's some results of a gmg search...

Here's UNTFlyer (the single most influential promoter/supporter of the athletic fee referendum) responding to a similar "stealth" claim that was also posted in the NT Daily:

And here's a link to the actual voting results:

Nearly 14% of our student body voted---which, historically speaking, qualifies as a high turnout percentage for a referendum voted on by the UNT student body.

I call it stealth because the AD couldn't or wouldn't even speak up during the run-up to the election for the simple reason that everyone knew that it would sway the faculty and NT Daily even more so to get out the vote against the new stadium fee, just as it had the previous time that RV got involved.

After the vote was done, if you'll remember, several people came out and basically screamed about how so many people didn't know about the election, that the Athletic Department never promoted it enough to get the attention it deserved. That's why I called it "stealth"--it was actually genius by the AD not to get involved, becasue that was the only way it had a chance of passing. Otherwise, we still play at Fouts right now in the SBC, with a very real possibility of having to drop back down to FCS or get rid of football since the crumbling stadium couldn't handle the needs of FBS program in today's world.