For those who question the commitment

Harry · April 23, 2013

How do you explain the new Daktronics scoreboard, lighting and sound going into the Super Pit?

Or the new basketball practice facility that was just christened a month ago?

Or the pedestrian bridge that connects the main campus to Eagle Point and the stadium?

Or the new stadium itself which some say should be valued at closer to 100 million?

Or the move to C-USA?

I graduated in 1990. I can promise you these types of things weren't even in the realm of possibilities back in those days.

I think a lot of us share in the disappointment of this past basketball season. It was a gut punch that was totally unexpected.

But that setback does not change the fact that there are many reasons to be optimistic about the future of North Texas athletics. And we should not be ashamed to feel this way - it doesn't make us less of a fan.

So excuse us if we choose to support the coach and the players as they try to rebuild this thing.

There comes a point in life where you have to put the past disappointments behind you and move on. You shouldn't forget about the mistakes you made but you shouldn't dwell on them either. I would like to think that our University is strong enough to overcome one bad season.

Green P1 · April 23, 2013

The commitment to facilities has been wonderful.

Eagle61 · April 23, 2013

Well said

UNTFan23 · April 23, 2013

New lighting is not going into the Super Pit (much to the disappointment of some).

The pedestrian bridge is far from a "commitment" by the university. Yes NT gave up some land and threw some money in the pot but that's a far cry from building out things like the Mean Green Village. If anything it was a necessity due to the stadium being built.

UNTFan23 · April 23, 2013

So excuse us if we choose to support the coach and the players as they try to rebuild this thing.

Rebuild after this failure of a season -- yes -- I hope we "turn the corner" and get back to at least .500 ball again.

Harry, the last time we were at .500 ball was in the 2005-2006 season and the last time we had a losing record was in the 2004-2005 season.

Edited April 23, 2013 by UNTFan23

H-towngreen · April 23, 2013

So excuse us if we choose to support the coach and the players as they try to rebuild this thing.

That's the reason though Harry, we shouldn't be rebuilding at this point, we should be reloading after what should've been a trip the the Dance.

UNT90 · April 23, 2013

How do you explain the new Daktronics scoreboard, lighting and sound going into the Super Pit?
Or the new basketball practice facility that was just christened a month ago?
Or the pedestrian bridge that connects the main campus to Eagle Point and the stadium?
Or the new stadium itself which some say should be valued at closer to 100 million?
Or the move to C-USA?
I graduated in 1990. I can promise you these types of things weren't even in the realm of possibilities back in those days.
I think a lot of us share in the disappointment of this past basketball season. It was a gut punch that was totally unexpected.
But that setback does not change the fact that there are many reasons to be optimistic about the future of North Texas athletics. And we should not be ashamed to feel this way - it doesn't make us less of a fan.
So excuse us if we choose to support the coach and the players as they try to rebuild this thing.
There comes a point in life where you have to put the past disappointments behind you and move on. You shouldn't forget about the mistakes you made but you shouldn't dwell on them either. I would like to think that our University is strong enough to overcome one bad season.

It's not the commitment of the private donors (scoreboard, basketball practice facility), the students (Apogee Stadium), or the fundraising effort of the AD that led to some of the increases in facilities that I question.

I do question the mindset that losing is ok and the mindset that allows a coach that is in way over his head to remain as head coach.

Harry, you are right, you have to put disappointment behind you, but you also have to correct the decisions that led to that disappointment, or you risk experiencing that disappointment over and over and over again. If you will notice, I didn't go really negative until we refused to correct an obvious mistake in basketball. I see no way we win more than 10 games next year. Hope I'm wrong.

But my question to you is, when is it enough? How can you expect Benford to win more games next year in a tougher conference with less talent? If he doesn't win 10 ganes next year, then what will the administration do about it?

I submit nothing, because that really isn't their focus. Like Jim (?) has posted many times, there is not and probably will never be the appropriate emphasis on athletics at this university.

Why do I say that? When your chancellor can't even defend a student athletics fee in Austin, a fee that UTSA and Tx St has x 2 over us, and allows that fee to be tied to paying off the stadium and future construction, that is an example of just not really caring about athletics . Why can't we have WHAT JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER PUBLIC UNIVERSITY IN TEXAS HAS?

Has the athletic fee been raised? I don't think so, and we are allowed to raise it $2 per semester hour every year. If you are trying to fund an underfunded athletics department, why in the hell wouldn't you raise it ?

It's just a lack of commitment to athletics. That's who we have always been and probably who we always will be. I'll eventually accept it, but it's gonna take some time.

Edited April 23, 2013 by UNT90

untjim1995 · April 23, 2013

It's not the commitment of the private donors (scoreboard, basketball practice facility), the students (Apogee Stadium), or the fundraising effort of the AD that led to some of the increases in facilities that I question.
I do question the mindset that losing is ok and the mindset that allows a coach that is in way over his head to remain as head coach.
Harry, you are right, you have to put disappointment behind you, but you also have to correct the decisions that led to that disappointment, or you risk experiencing that disappointment over and over and over again. If you will notice, I didn't go really negative until we refused to correct an obvious mistake in basketball. I see no way we win more than 10 games next year. Hope I'm wrong.
But my question to you is, when is it enough? How can you expect Benford to win more games next year in a tougher conference with less talent? If he doesn't win 10 ganes next year, then what will the administration do about it?
I submit nothing, because that really isn't their focus. Like Jim (?) has posted many times, there is not and probably will never be the appropriate emphasis on athletics at this university.
Why do I say that? When your chancellor can't even defend a student athletics fee in Austib, a fee that UTSA and Tx St has x 2 over us, and allows that fee to be tied to paying off the stadium and future construction, that is an example of just not really caring about athletics . Why can't we have WHAT JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER PUBLIC UNIVERSITY IN TEXAS HAS?
Has the athletic fee been raised? I don't think so, and we are allowed to raise it $2 per semester hour every year. If you are trying to fund an underfunded athletics department, why in the hell wouldn't you raise it ?
It's just a lack of commitment to athletics. That's who we have always been and probably who we always will be. I'll eventually accept it, but it's gonna take some time.

Great post--the facilites improvements are great. But Apogee was a must, since Fouts couldn't even survive much longer. EIther APogee was gonna get funded and built or UNT Football was going to go the way of the dodo.

The Mean Green Village, the Super Pit and its improvements, and Apogee are awesome. Very proud to see them and attend games at the venues. Love the tailgating scene and the Alumni Pavilion, too.

Here's where we lack, though. When you make a mistake on a hire (or hires in our case), two things happen at almost every other university. 1.) The mistake is removed as soon as possible. If Benford wins less than 12 games next year (I think that's a given), he should be fired, period. I cannot believe he was kept after this past season, but that is part of the deal when you hire a coach sometimes is to give that coach a chance to right the ship, unless it is just too much. Southern Miss fired their coach in football after he went 0-12. They know that is just not acceptable to even try and give him another chance since he killed their momentum. 2.) The person who makes the bad hire(s) will pay a price--usually the ultimate price is the job as AD. In college sports, a coach makes the biggest difference in winning and losing. Look at the Aggies--under Franchione and Sherman, they couldn't get anything going. Then, they hire Sumlin, who had been a winner at UH, and voila, they find a freshman QB who redshirted under the previous coach, but once he gets to play, he wins the freaking Heisman. That coach knew how to put the right people in the right spot and now they are in the top 10. BTW, we saw the same things happened in Austin when Mack Brown took over and the obvious one was when Bob Stoops got to OU after John Blake. Both have taken a step or two back recently, but it doesn't take away from how important it is to bring in the right coach. We may have that in McCarney--I sure hope so, anyway--but what we have seen from RV in picking hires for $$$ sports--football, mens hoops, and womens hoops, has been below average at best. We've seen him hire Todd Dodge, Tony Benford, and Shanice Stephens--easily they may be the worst three hires for their sports in the school's history, which isn't all that bright to begin with. Coach Mac hasn't panned out yet, Peterson as the womens coach might, but we will have to see, and then he gets credit for Johnny Jones. That track record would never play out as even close to acceptable anywhere else that I can think of.

In closing, UNT grades as this to me. Facilites=great job. Personnel=terrible job.

UNT90 · April 23, 2013

What really gets me is the athletics fee. The only damn thing this administration had to do was defend it in the legislature. That should have been a pretty easy task. The students and the student government did the heavy lifting by getting this fee passed by the student body. Couldn't the administration just do one damn thing and protect it in Austin?

They didn't.

Makes me wonder if they ever wanted it to succeed in the 1st place.

I would be really interested in hearing Flyer's views on this, if he cares to share.

Edited April 23, 2013 by UNT90

FirefightnRick · April 23, 2013

How do you explain the new Daktronics scoreboard, lighting and sound going into the Super Pit?
Or the new basketball practice facility that was just christened a month ago?
Or the pedestrian bridge that connects the main campus to Eagle Point and the stadium?
Or the new stadium itself which some say should be valued at closer to 100 million?
Or the move to C-USA?
I graduated in 1990. I can promise you these types of things weren't even in the realm of possibilities back in those days.
I think a lot of us share in the disappointment of this past basketball season. It was a gut punch that was totally unexpected.
But that setback does not change the fact that there are many reasons to be optimistic about the future of North Texas athletics. And we should not be ashamed to feel this way - it doesn't make us less of a fan.
So excuse us if we choose to support the coach and the players as they try to rebuild this thing.
There comes a point in life where you have to put the past disappointments behind you and move on. You shouldn't forget about the mistakes you made but you shouldn't dwell on them either. I would like to think that our University is strong enough to overcome one bad season.

Mr Waranch walked through our door several years back wanting to give back somehow so he built us a new tennis complex that was badly needed with the agreement that WE would complete it by raising the money to finish it with the center court. And now, coach Lama just led us to our third conference tennis championship in four years, and still no center court. So excuse me if I EXPECT a completion of the tennis project one way or the other before another project is taken on.

Rick

Edited April 23, 2013 by FirefightnRick

emmitt01 · April 23, 2013

Harry, it's unfair to compare where we were when you were a student (or when I was) to today and then declare victory. It's like the people who want to compare Mac to Dodge. Improving from nothing to something isn't cause for a parade. Our facilities are now where they should be at a MINIMUM...if we are serious about D1 athletics.

RV and company deserve a LARGE hand for getting us to where we are. But I, like you, think we have to lwt go of the past. A football stadium built two years ago doesn't excuse a failure to fix the basketball debacle today. Nor does a practice facility. Let's put this in terms of my work. Three weeks or so ago DPD caught a rapist in Lake Highlands near where I live. Lake Highlands residents couldn't get enough of thanking any officer they saw. If the crime rate in Lake Highlands spikes tomorrow and there is a rash of burglaries I guarantee you that Chief Brown won't stand up at the podium and say "Remember that rapist we caught? Geez, give us a break!"

And, since we're talking about the exemplary fundraising that our AD has apparently done, answer me this. Why are we so quick to use "can't afford it...we're just lil' ol' NT" when a coach clearly needs to go? It's not just Benford we're talking about...Dodge too. Dodge crippled our biggest program. Benford is on the way to killing #2. Where is this "can do" spirit when it comes to fixing the problems actually on the court or field?

UNT Five&Dime · April 23, 2013

You people make me sad

Greendylan · April 23, 2013

Apogee is awesome, and those who took part in leading toward its creation are saints. But let's not fool ourselves. Building a new stadium allowed us to barely keep our head above water in the arms race with other MID MAJORS. It was about survival, not suddenly thrusting ourselves into the major college football spotlight. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing place, and I am extremely grateful to all those who lifted heaven and earth to achieve this accomplishment. It allows us to survive as a player in Division I college football, but we have a lot of work ahead of us if we want to thrive.

And . . . yes, we can easily overcome one bad season in basketball. I think the fear that some of us share is that we are headed (unless something changes) for two or three additional awful years, which would effectively slaughter any positive momentum we had built up over nearly a decade.

Overall, we do have plenty to be optimistic about, and we do in fact have many points of pride within our athletic program. However, I would say that right now there is ample room for criticism as well.

TheTastyGreek · April 23, 2013

Commitment is Western Kentucky. More on that at the end of this post. What we have right now is architecture.

I still defend Darrell Dickey. I think Coach Mac has done more than anyone should have reasonably expected so far, though I am a little concerned with our recruiting under him. I don't think (though I may be wrong) I called for Dodge to be fired until he was in his 3rd year. I criticized him pretty heavily up to that point, but I don't think I said RV ought to fire him.

I understood the Benford hire, I praised it at the time. When people started talking about "Sweet 16 or bust", I tried to point out that postseason success as a sole measure of achievement is foolish. When people knock our program for never beating ranked teams, I try to point out what that means, and why almost nobody from the mid major ranks ever beats ranked teams, particularly on the road.

I am not a person with unreasonable or outrageous expectations.

The best thing for North Texas, not just as a basketball program, but primarily as an institution of education and integrity, would be for Tony Benford's association with it to be terminated, as soon as possible, voluntarily or not.

Yesterday would have been better than today. Today would be better than tomorrow. Tomorrow is better than September, September would be better than January, January would be better than April. This year would be better than 2 years from now.

But that's not going to happen.

We aren't going to pay off roughly one and a half million dollars to get rid of the guy. We lost our shot at the brass ring last year. Next year, we'll struggle, because we have so many new players learning to mesh and play D-1 basketball, and doing it against CUSA competition instead of the Sun Belt. The year after that (assuming we aren't replacing another 6 or 7 guys then), maybe we'll push .500... And obviously, we can't fire the guy when the team is showing improvement. That gets us to year 4 out of 5 on the contract, and maybe midway through or at the end of that season, we might get a new coach.

That's just how it's going to be. Benford isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We're going to have to sit here for years and watch our basketball program lose any and all momentum we put together over the last decade. It's hard, hard, hard to build a program in any sport, but primarily so in the 2 main men's sports. Once upon a not-too-long ago, we were pretty decent at football. Now, less than a decade after our last bowl appearance, there are only 5 schools in D-1 football that haven't made a bowl since our last appearance. UNLV, Washington State, Tulane, Eastern Michigan, and New Mexico State. Everyone else that was full D-1 last year, including half a dozen teams that weren't D1 when we were bowling (or flat out didn't exist at all), has been in a bowl since our 2004 New Orleans Bowl appearance.

We made a godawful hire in football, and holding on to that guy for 4 years has allowed us to see 116 other schools make at least one bowl game since our last one.

It's going to happen in basketball, too.

Western Kentucky is committed to success. Not architecture, though success has allowed them to finance some nice architecture, too. That place doesn't accept being terrible at everything.

Western Kentucky won a national championship in 1-AA football back in 2002. Their Defensive Coordinator got promoted to Head Coach, then led them to a #8 and #11 ranking. He oversaw their transition to full D1 football. They signed him to a 6 year contract extension in January of 2009. 10 months later, they realized he wasn't the man who could lead them to FBS success, and they fired him. Less than a year after giving him a big extension, they got rid of him. And, looking at what they did under Taggart, it looks like they made the right call.

In basketball, Western Kentucky hasn't gone more than 5 years between NCAA Tournament appearances since the 1950's. And, back then, some schools preferred the NIT over the NCAAs. If you count NIT appearances, the last time WKU went more than 5 years without an appearance was during the Great Depression.

Western had a coach who, in his first year, led them to an NCAA tournament win. Almost the Sweet 16, if not for a Gonzaga buzzer beater. Ken McDonald won 21 games the next year. The year after that, his team went .500. And that .500 season was so unacceptable to that school, McDonald had to take a $100,000 pay cut to keep his job. Then, they fired him halfway through the next season anyway.

McDonald won them an NCAA tournament game. Almost two. Never finished a season under .500. And he didn't even get to finish the 4th year on his contract.

That place refuses to be awful at sports.

Here, we have a tiny fan base and limited resources. Even though WKU is smaller and in a small Kentucky town, they don't have to worry about either. Since before World War 2, no student who attended 5 years at WKU has gone without a team to celebrate.

Here, we have sock puppets from the athletic department scolding fans for being pissed off that we're terrible at both of the major men's sports. There, they don't have the excuse of apathy and a small donor base. Because for over 80 years, every Hilltopper who put in a full 4 years had something to cheer for. And in the periods where they didn't get it while on campus, it happened the year before or the year after.

There are no dark decades or generations of limited to zero fan base growth like what's happened at North Texas in the same period of time. WKU doesn't have to wait and hope for a Boone Pickens gift. They have 80 years worth of consistent commitment and sports success. We have 4 bowls in a half century, and most of our fans crap on whatever that success was worth. We have 3 NCAA appearances in our entire school history. WKU has 4 NCAA tournament wins (not appearances, but WINS) since our 2007 appearance.

That's a place that has given their students and alums a reason to give a damn about sports. With very short and very minor exceptions, we haven't done that here. To sit in the equivalent of my two seats at Diddle Arena, I'd have to pay $1500 per year. Meanwhile, at the Super Pit, we couldn't give away tickets in our row.

If Tony Benford were coaching Western Kentucky, he'd be at risk of getting fired midway through the upcoming basketball season. When they screw up a hire (Kilcullen, McDonald) they don't spend the next 4 years justifying the decision process. That's how they've run that program for generations, and that's why they don't sit around wondering how the can tap their market or interest their 100k+ alums within a 30 minute drive of campus like we so often do.

We can't be terrible at everything anymore. We were decent at football, then we were pretty damn good at basketball. If football doesn't make it to a bowl this year, it's going to keep getting uglier and uglier. It's been 15 years since we sucked at everything, all at once. And it looks like we may be in for another year of it.

When people are complaining, at least they're engaged. I spent most of basketball season not posting. I've pretty much stopped doing any maintenance on the basketball recruiting forum, because based on how we're handling players and scholarships, that forum may as well be Grindr for guys who can dunk.

Benford is here. He's not leaving any time soon. And I understand that. I don't expect him to go anywhere until late 2015 or early 2016, at the soonest. Unless we get ourselves in some sort of trouble, and wind up with an out to fire him for cause.

We're stuck. We're f---ed. And it's probably going to take so long to change course, that we'll have a football-style reclamation project for our next coach to walk in and try to fix.

I'm 32 years old. And it looks like it's going to take a miracle, sooner or later, for me to see us in the NCAA Tournament again before I turn 40. Whenever it happens, (if it happens?) I just hope we haven't gone on sanctions in the meantime.

emmitt01 · April 23, 2013

Commitment is Western Kentucky. More on that at the end of this post. What we have right now is architecture.

I still defend Darrell Dickey. I think Coach Mac has done more than anyone should have reasonably expected so far, though I am a little concerned with our recruiting under him. I don't think (though I may be wrong) I called for Dodge to be fired until he was in his 3rd year. I criticized him pretty heavily up to that point, but I don't think I said RV ought to fire him.

I understood the Benford hire, I praised it at the time. When people started talking about "Sweet 16 or bust", I tried to point out that postseason success as a sole measure of achievement is foolish. When people knock our program for never beating ranked teams, I try to point out what that means, and why almost nobody from the mid major ranks ever beats ranked teams, particularly on the road.

I am not a person with unreasonable or outrageous expectations.
The best thing for North Texas, not just as a basketball program, but primarily as an institution of education and integrity, would be for Tony Benford's association with it to be terminated, as soon as possible, voluntarily or not.

Yesterday would have been better than today. Today would be better than tomorrow. Tomorrow is better than September, September would be better than January, January would be better than April. This year would be better than 2 years from now.

But that's not going to happen.

We aren't going to pay off roughly one and a half million dollars to get rid of the guy. We lost our shot at the brass ring last year. Next year, we'll struggle, because we have so many new players learning to mesh and play D-1 basketball, and doing it against CUSA competition instead of the Sun Belt. The year after that (assuming we aren't replacing another 6 or 7 guys then), maybe we'll push .500... And obviously, we can't fire the guy when the team is showing improvement. That gets us to year 4 out of 5 on the contract, and maybe midway through or at the end of that season, we might get a new coach.

That's just how it's going to be. Benford isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We're going to have to sit here for years and watch our basketball program lose any and all momentum we put together over the last decade. It's hard, hard, hard to build a program in any sport, but primarily so in the 2 main men's sports. Once upon a not-too-long ago, we were pretty decent at football. Now, less than a decade after our last bowl appearance, there are only 5 schools in D-1 football that haven't made a bowl since our last appearance. UNLV, Washington State, Tulane, Eastern Michigan, and New Mexico State. Everyone else that was full D-1 last year, including half a dozen teams that weren't D1 when we were bowling (or flat out didn't exist at all), has been in a bowl since our 2004 New Orleans Bowl appearance.

We made a godawful hire in football, and holding on to that guy for 4 years has allowed us to see 116 other schools make at least one bowl game since our last one.

It's going to happen in basketball, too.

Western Kentucky is committed to success. Not architecture, though success has allowed them to finance some nice architecture, too. That place doesn't accept being terrible at everything.

Western Kentucky won a national championship in 1-AA football back in 2002. Their Defensive Coordinator got promoted to Head Coach, then led them to a #8 and #11 ranking. He oversaw their transition to full D1 football. They signed him to a 6 year contract extension in January of 2009. 10 months later, they realized he wasn't the man who could lead them to FBS success, and they fired him. Less than a year after giving him a big extension, they got rid of him. And, looking at what they did under Taggart, it looks like they made the right call.

In basketball, Western Kentucky hasn't gone more than 5 years between NCAA Tournament appearances since the 1950's. And, back then, some schools preferred the NIT over the NCAAs. If you count NIT appearances, the last time WKU went more than 5 years without an appearance was during the Great Depression.

Western had a coach who, in his first year, led them to an NCAA tournament win. Almost the Sweet 16, if not for a Gonzaga buzzer beater. Ken McDonald won 21 games the next year. The year after that, his team went .500. And that .500 season was so unacceptable to that school, McDonald had to take a $100,000 pay cut to keep his job. Then, they fired him halfway through the next season anyway.

McDonald won them an NCAA tournament game. Almost two. Never finished a season under .500. And he didn't even get to finish the 4th year on his contract.

That place refuses to be awful at sports.

Here, we have a tiny fan base and limited resources. Even though WKU is smaller and in a small Kentucky town, they don't have to worry about either. Since before World War 2, no student who attended 5 years at WKU has gone without a team to celebrate.

Here, we have sock puppets from the athletic department scolding fans for being pissed off that we're terrible at both of the major men's sports. There, they don't have the excuse of apathy and a small donor base. Because for over 80 years, every Hilltopper who put in a full 4 years had something to cheer for. And in the periods where they didn't get it while on campus, it happened the year before or the year after.

There are no dark decades or generations of limited to zero fan base growth like what's happened at North Texas in the same period of time. WKU doesn't have to wait and hope for a Boone Pickens gift. They have 80 years worth of consistent commitment and sports success. We have 4 bowls in a half century, and most of our fans crap on whatever that success was worth. We have 3 NCAA appearances in our entire school history. WKU has 4 NCAA tournament wins (not appearances, but WINS) since our 2007 appearance.

That's a place that has given their students and alums a reason to give a damn about sports. With very short and very minor exceptions, we haven't done that here. To sit in the equivalent of my two seats at Diddle Arena, I'd have to pay $1500 per year. Meanwhile, at the Super Pit, we couldn't give away tickets in our row.

If Tony Benford were coaching Western Kentucky, he'd be at risk of getting fired midway through the upcoming basketball season. When they screw up a hire (Kilcullen, McDonald) they don't spend the next 4 years justifying the decision process. That's how they've run that program for generations, and that's why they don't sit around wondering how the can tap their market or interest their 100k+ alums within a 30 minute drive of campus like we so often do.

We can't be terrible at everything anymore. We were decent at football, then we were pretty damn good at basketball. If football doesn't make it to a bowl this year, it's going to keep getting uglier and uglier. It's been 15 years since we sucked at everything, all at once. And it looks like we may be in for another year of it.

When people are complaining, at least they're engaged. I spent most of basketball season not posting. I've pretty much stopped doing any maintenance on the basketball recruiting forum, because based on how we're handling players and scholarships, that forum may as well be Grindr for guys who can dunk.

Benford is here. He's not leaving any time soon. And I understand that. I don't expect him to go anywhere until late 2015 or early 2016, at the soonest. Unless we get ourselves in some sort of trouble, and wind up with an out to fire him for cause.

We're stuck. We're f---ed. And it's probably going to take so long to change course, that we'll have a football-style reclamation project for our next coach to walk in and try to fix.

I'm 32 years old. And it looks like it's going to take a miracle, sooner or later, for me to see us in the NCAA Tournament again before I turn 40. Whenever it happens, (if it happens?) I just hope we haven't gone on sanctions in the meantime.

Cue sock puppets.

RAGEMASTER5000 · April 23, 2013

This thread makes me want to go to Wally World, get a UT shirt and a Texas Tech hat and drink myself into a bud light/nacho coma.

Edited April 23, 2013 by RAGEMASTER5000

TheTastyGreek · April 23, 2013

The only reason the basketball forum has become such a chronically negative beating is because we had finally given a lot of people a reason to give a damn about basketball at our school.

Ten years ago, I probably wouldn't have cared if we hired a bad coach and lost 20 games. Other than a half dozen guys that didn't include me, few people on the forum were really paying any attention.

But we spent a decade watching this program turn into something worth caring about. Something worth getting emotionally invested in.

Now we've got a guy systematically dismantling and disgracing it. People are pissed off about it. When they stop being pissed off, things will quiet down. And we'll be right back where we were for most of the past 100 years.

greenminer · April 23, 2013

Facility makeover. Good job AD!

AD is still not perfect

Losing is still a big problem

sock puppets.

UNT90 · April 23, 2013

Commitment is Western Kentucky. More on that at the end of this post. What we have right now is architecture.

I still defend Darrell Dickey. I think Coach Mac has done more than anyone should have reasonably expected so far, though I am a little concerned with our recruiting under him. I don't think (though I may be wrong) I called for Dodge to be fired until he was in his 3rd year. I criticized him pretty heavily up to that point, but I don't think I said RV ought to fire him.

I understood the Benford hire, I praised it at the time. When people started talking about "Sweet 16 or bust", I tried to point out that postseason success as a sole measure of achievement is foolish. When people knock our program for never beating ranked teams, I try to point out what that means, and why almost nobody from the mid major ranks ever beats ranked teams, particularly on the road.

I am not a person with unreasonable or outrageous expectations.

The best thing for North Texas, not just as a basketball program, but primarily as an institution of education and integrity, would be for Tony Benford's association with it to be terminated, as soon as possible, voluntarily or not.

Yesterday would have been better than today. Today would be better than tomorrow. Tomorrow is better than September, September would be better than January, January would be better than April. This year would be better than 2 years from now.

But that's not going to happen.

We aren't going to pay off roughly one and a half million dollars to get rid of the guy. We lost our shot at the brass ring last year. Next year, we'll struggle, because we have so many new players learning to mesh and play D-1 basketball, and doing it against CUSA competition instead of the Sun Belt. The year after that (assuming we aren't replacing another 6 or 7 guys then), maybe we'll push .500... And obviously, we can't fire the guy when the team is showing improvement. That gets us to year 4 out of 5 on the contract, and maybe midway through or at the end of that season, we might get a new coach.

That's just how it's going to be. Benford isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We're going to have to sit here for years and watch our basketball program lose any and all momentum we put together over the last decade. It's hard, hard, hard to build a program in any sport, but primarily so in the 2 main men's sports. Once upon a not-too-long ago, we were pretty decent at football. Now, less than a decade after our last bowl appearance, there are only 5 schools in D-1 football that haven't made a bowl since our last appearance. UNLV, Washington State, Tulane, Eastern Michigan, and New Mexico State. Everyone else that was full D-1 last year, including half a dozen teams that weren't D1 when we were bowling (or flat out didn't exist at all), has been in a bowl since our 2004 New Orleans Bowl appearance.

We made a godawful hire in football, and holding on to that guy for 4 years has allowed us to see 116 other schools make at least one bowl game since our last one.

It's going to happen in basketball, too.

Western Kentucky is committed to success. Not architecture, though success has allowed them to finance some nice architecture, too. That place doesn't accept being terrible at everything.

Western Kentucky won a national championship in 1-AA football back in 2002. Their Defensive Coordinator got promoted to Head Coach, then led them to a #8 and #11 ranking. He oversaw their transition to full D1 football. They signed him to a 6 year contract extension in January of 2009. 10 months later, they realized he wasn't the man who could lead them to FBS success, and they fired him. Less than a year after giving him a big extension, they got rid of him. And, looking at what they did under Taggart, it looks like they made the right call.

In basketball, Western Kentucky hasn't gone more than 5 years between NCAA Tournament appearances since the 1950's. And, back then, some schools preferred the NIT over the NCAAs. If you count NIT appearances, the last time WKU went more than 5 years without an appearance was during the Great Depression.

Western had a coach who, in his first year, led them to an NCAA tournament win. Almost the Sweet 16, if not for a Gonzaga buzzer beater. Ken McDonald won 21 games the next year. The year after that, his team went .500. And that .500 season was so unacceptable to that school, McDonald had to take a $100,000 pay cut to keep his job. Then, they fired him halfway through the next season anyway.

McDonald won them an NCAA tournament game. Almost two. Never finished a season under .500. And he didn't even get to finish the 4th year on his contract.

That place refuses to be awful at sports.

Here, we have a tiny fan base and limited resources. Even though WKU is smaller and in a small Kentucky town, they don't have to worry about either. Since before World War 2, no student who attended 5 years at WKU has gone without a team to celebrate.

Here, we have sock puppets from the athletic department scolding fans for being pissed off that we're terrible at both of the major men's sports. There, they don't have the excuse of apathy and a small donor base. Because for over 80 years, every Hilltopper who put in a full 4 years had something to cheer for. And in the periods where they didn't get it while on campus, it happened the year before or the year after.

There are no dark decades or generations of limited to zero fan base growth like what's happened at North Texas in the same period of time. WKU doesn't have to wait and hope for a Boone Pickens gift. They have 80 years worth of consistent commitment and sports success. We have 4 bowls in a half century, and most of our fans crap on whatever that success was worth. We have 3 NCAA appearances in our entire school history. WKU has 4 NCAA tournament wins (not appearances, but WINS) since our 2007 appearance.

That's a place that has given their students and alums a reason to give a damn about sports. With very short and very minor exceptions, we haven't done that here. To sit in the equivalent of my two seats at Diddle Arena, I'd have to pay $1500 per year. Meanwhile, at the Super Pit, we couldn't give away tickets in our row.

If Tony Benford were coaching Western Kentucky, he'd be at risk of getting fired midway through the upcoming basketball season. When they screw up a hire (Kilcullen, McDonald) they don't spend the next 4 years justifying the decision process. That's how they've run that program for generations, and that's why they don't sit around wondering how the can tap their market or interest their 100k+ alums within a 30 minute drive of campus like we so often do.

We can't be terrible at everything anymore. We were decent at football, then we were pretty damn good at basketball. If football doesn't make it to a bowl this year, it's going to keep getting uglier and uglier. It's been 15 years since we sucked at everything, all at once. And it looks like we may be in for another year of it.

When people are complaining, at least they're engaged. I spent most of basketball season not posting. I've pretty much stopped doing any maintenance on the basketball recruiting forum, because based on how we're handling players and scholarships, that forum may as well be Grindr for guys who can dunk.

Benford is here. He's not leaving any time soon. And I understand that. I don't expect him to go anywhere until late 2015 or early 2016, at the soonest. Unless we get ourselves in some sort of trouble, and wind up with an out to fire him for cause.

We're stuck. We're f---ed. And it's probably going to take so long to change course, that we'll have a football-style reclamation project for our next coach to walk in and try to fix.

I'm 32 years old. And it looks like it's going to take a miracle, sooner or later, for me to see us in the NCAA Tournament again before I turn 40. Whenever it happens, (if it happens?) I just hope we haven't gone on sanctions in the meantime.

So so so so dead on.

These are the reasons that all of my posts toward this basketball program at this point are negative. There is absolutely nothing to be positive about, and the UNT administration has allowed this to happen.

If RV is too prideful to make the change, he should be fired yesterday. If the BOR, chancellor, or president are too cheap to correct a mistake, they should be replaced.

It's like keeping the chemistry professor who blew up the chemistry lab.

So maddening.

Edited April 23, 2013 by UNT90

RAGEMASTER5000 · April 23, 2013

^{Here's a positive: I get to wake up every morning and remember that I'm not a Western Kentucky fan.}

untjim1995 · April 23, 2013

TTG,

Your post is so amazingly spot-on that I just want to give you a +10000000000000000000000000000 points. You win...seriously, best post I've read on gmg.com in all my years of posting on here.

Admitting that we are f'd is not being against the university or having an agenda against the AD--its just calling out the truth in the way you see it. Here's something that all of you should know. By pure luck, I ran into Brett Vito the other night at a local restaraunt. Just started chatting up UNT Sports, football mostly. He spoke very highly of Dickey, too, and he also laughs at how much the fanbase didn't care for him. I didn't argue with him, although I don't hold Dickey in high regard for his "bowl run", but that's not the point we were getting at. He brought up how much he disliked working with Todd Dodge, "the high school coach" as he called him. He couldn't believe that he got hired AND lasted that long here. He talked positively and in hopeful terms about McCarney.

But his last point is what should make us all cringe--the only media member in the entire universe that covers this school says the following, "If Coach Mac doesn't turn it around here, even with the improved facilites, they (UNT) need to really look at the situation to see if they belong at this level. Because it just isn't working." Vito, right or wrong, is more in tune with the thought process around Denton and how people outside of the AD view UNT Athletics, than anyone else out there, since its his daily job at the DRC. He hears it from others in town and at the paper. He sees it when he goes to the Super Pit and see less than 2000 people there to watch a team that was just coached to the most disappointing season we have seen from a UNT sports team in history (yes, it was that bad), but knows he cannot be fired because it costs too much. He sees a brand new stadium, but he knows that people in Denton don't go there because the team doesn't win and doesn't play anyone that they care about in any big way.

The worst part about it all to me is that Brett Vito's mindset is what is shaped by being around UNT sports everyday in Denton. HIs view "that the university has to really take a look at what its wanting from its program" is coming from a place where so many people around the university don't want anything more put toward athletics. And he understands that for the minority that does care, that the manner in which we are running this program is not going to make it, unless Coach McCarney really can turn the 116th rated recruiting class into something down the road, which seems like a pipedream when you take an objective step back. If it weren't for Coach Mac's resume for building Iowa State up from the ashes, no one here would believe this thing has a chance of being rebuilt. At this point, we have to give McCarney our trust, because if we aren't even willing to do that, we all have to come to the realization that this place is f'd if we go 2-10, as one sports magazine has predicted. Its really come down to that. Because a terrible season probably means McCarney will get fired within the next two seasons, and if you trust RV to make the correct hire, after all we have seen over the last decade of him hiring coaches, you really should be working in the Athletic Department as official communications staff.

MeanGreenHoops · April 23, 2013

Commitment is Western Kentucky. More on that at the end of this post. What we have right now is architecture.

I still defend Darrell Dickey. I think Coach Mac has done more than anyone should have reasonably expected so far, though I am a little concerned with our recruiting under him. I don't think (though I may be wrong) I called for Dodge to be fired until he was in his 3rd year. I criticized him pretty heavily up to that point, but I don't think I said RV ought to fire him.

I understood the Benford hire, I praised it at the time. When people started talking about "Sweet 16 or bust", I tried to point out that postseason success as a sole measure of achievement is foolish. When people knock our program for never beating ranked teams, I try to point out what that means, and why almost nobody from the mid major ranks ever beats ranked teams, particularly on the road.

I am not a person with unreasonable or outrageous expectations.

The best thing for North Texas, not just as a basketball program, but primarily as an institution of education and integrity, would be for Tony Benford's association with it to be terminated, as soon as possible, voluntarily or not.

Yesterday would have been better than today. Today would be better than tomorrow. Tomorrow is better than September, September would be better than January, January would be better than April. This year would be better than 2 years from now.

But that's not going to happen.

We aren't going to pay off roughly one and a half million dollars to get rid of the guy. We lost our shot at the brass ring last year. Next year, we'll struggle, because we have so many new players learning to mesh and play D-1 basketball, and doing it against CUSA competition instead of the Sun Belt. The year after that (assuming we aren't replacing another 6 or 7 guys then), maybe we'll push .500... And obviously, we can't fire the guy when the team is showing improvement. That gets us to year 4 out of 5 on the contract, and maybe midway through or at the end of that season, we might get a new coach.

That's just how it's going to be. Benford isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We're going to have to sit here for years and watch our basketball program lose any and all momentum we put together over the last decade. It's hard, hard, hard to build a program in any sport, but primarily so in the 2 main men's sports. Once upon a not-too-long ago, we were pretty decent at football. Now, less than a decade after our last bowl appearance, there are only 5 schools in D-1 football that haven't made a bowl since our last appearance. UNLV, Washington State, Tulane, Eastern Michigan, and New Mexico State. Everyone else that was full D-1 last year, including half a dozen teams that weren't D1 when we were bowling (or flat out didn't exist at all), has been in a bowl since our 2004 New Orleans Bowl appearance.

We made a godawful hire in football, and holding on to that guy for 4 years has allowed us to see 116 other schools make at least one bowl game since our last one.

It's going to happen in basketball, too.

Western Kentucky is committed to success. Not architecture, though success has allowed them to finance some nice architecture, too. That place doesn't accept being terrible at everything.

Western Kentucky won a national championship in 1-AA football back in 2002. Their Defensive Coordinator got promoted to Head Coach, then led them to a #8 and #11 ranking. He oversaw their transition to full D1 football. They signed him to a 6 year contract extension in January of 2009. 10 months later, they realized he wasn't the man who could lead them to FBS success, and they fired him. Less than a year after giving him a big extension, they got rid of him. And, looking at what they did under Taggart, it looks like they made the right call.

In basketball, Western Kentucky hasn't gone more than 5 years between NCAA Tournament appearances since the 1950's. And, back then, some schools preferred the NIT over the NCAAs. If you count NIT appearances, the last time WKU went more than 5 years without an appearance was during the Great Depression.

Western had a coach who, in his first year, led them to an NCAA tournament win. Almost the Sweet 16, if not for a Gonzaga buzzer beater. Ken McDonald won 21 games the next year. The year after that, his team went .500. And that .500 season was so unacceptable to that school, McDonald had to take a $100,000 pay cut to keep his job. Then, they fired him halfway through the next season anyway.

McDonald won them an NCAA tournament game. Almost two. Never finished a season under .500. And he didn't even get to finish the 4th year on his contract.

That place refuses to be awful at sports.

Here, we have a tiny fan base and limited resources. Even though WKU is smaller and in a small Kentucky town, they don't have to worry about either. Since before World War 2, no student who attended 5 years at WKU has gone without a team to celebrate.

Here, we have sock puppets from the athletic department scolding fans for being pissed off that we're terrible at both of the major men's sports. There, they don't have the excuse of apathy and a small donor base. Because for over 80 years, every Hilltopper who put in a full 4 years had something to cheer for. And in the periods where they didn't get it while on campus, it happened the year before or the year after.

There are no dark decades or generations of limited to zero fan base growth like what's happened at North Texas in the same period of time. WKU doesn't have to wait and hope for a Boone Pickens gift. They have 80 years worth of consistent commitment and sports success. We have 4 bowls in a half century, and most of our fans crap on whatever that success was worth. We have 3 NCAA appearances in our entire school history. WKU has 4 NCAA tournament wins (not appearances, but WINS) since our 2007 appearance.

That's a place that has given their students and alums a reason to give a damn about sports. With very short and very minor exceptions, we haven't done that here. To sit in the equivalent of my two seats at Diddle Arena, I'd have to pay $1500 per year. Meanwhile, at the Super Pit, we couldn't give away tickets in our row.

If Tony Benford were coaching Western Kentucky, he'd be at risk of getting fired midway through the upcoming basketball season. When they screw up a hire (Kilcullen, McDonald) they don't spend the next 4 years justifying the decision process. That's how they've run that program for generations, and that's why they don't sit around wondering how the can tap their market or interest their 100k+ alums within a 30 minute drive of campus like we so often do.

We can't be terrible at everything anymore. We were decent at football, then we were pretty damn good at basketball. If football doesn't make it to a bowl this year, it's going to keep getting uglier and uglier. It's been 15 years since we sucked at everything, all at once. And it looks like we may be in for another year of it.

When people are complaining, at least they're engaged. I spent most of basketball season not posting. I've pretty much stopped doing any maintenance on the basketball recruiting forum, because based on how we're handling players and scholarships, that forum may as well be Grindr for guys who can dunk.

Benford is here. He's not leaving any time soon. And I understand that. I don't expect him to go anywhere until late 2015 or early 2016, at the soonest. Unless we get ourselves in some sort of trouble, and wind up with an out to fire him for cause.

We're stuck. We're f---ed. And it's probably going to take so long to change course, that we'll have a football-style reclamation project for our next coach to walk in and try to fix.

I'm 32 years old. And it looks like it's going to take a miracle, sooner or later, for me to see us in the NCAA Tournament again before I turn 40. Whenever it happens, (if it happens?) I just hope we haven't gone on sanctions in the meantime.

Best. Post. Ever.

greenminer · April 23, 2013

It seems UNT is stuck in this "This is why we are committed to this guy" mentality Perhaps the powers that be need to adapt to a line of thought more like "Show me why we should keep you, coach"

Greendylan · April 23, 2013

I just don't understand why it's such an impossibility to find a way to acquire the funds for a buyout. Be creative and persistent like any other serious Division I program would, and get it done; then, you will probably end up saving money in the long run. In fact, I'll give you an idea: agree to play one additional money game in football at some point over the course of the next four years and boom, the majority of the buyout is in the bag. Or if you don't like sacrificing a game in football for the sake of saving basketball as we know it, then how about this: When you have a group of wealthy donors who are ready and willing to raise a few million dollars in a single month, you press upon them the vital importance of first gathering the money for a buyout. Next, you collect that money, and finally you proceed with the construction of a practice facility and scoreboard after maybe a several month delay.

Every athletic program in the nation that cares about winning finds a way to buyout disastrous coaches the minute it becomes clear that they are, in fact, disasters. Programs that don't, well, don't. It's as simple as that.

UNT90 · April 23, 2013

It seems UNT is stuck in this "This is why we are committed to this guy" mentality Perhaps the powers that be need to adapt to a line of thought more like "Show me why we should keep you, coach"

The problem is, the last 3 times UNT used the "this is why we are committed to this guy/girl", it blew up in their face ands they had to/will have to fire that coach anyway.

At some point, don't you realize the approach you are taking just isn't working?