I love coach Dan McCarney, but...

[Green Dozer]

I grew up in Fort Worth about 4 miles from Amon Carter Stadium. Trust me, TCU didn't start being "Fort Worth's team" until they STARTED WINNING!

I used to go to games for free because no one wanted to watch a loser. We would run around the stadium (upper deck completely empty) rarely watching the action on the field. Jim Wacker won a little one year, and suddenly Fort Worth was interested. Waker left, the Frogs got bad again, and no one cared again. TCU started to win in the early 00s. This is when the city began to support the team. Everybody loves a winner who wins when it matters.

If we somehow manage to win a CUSA title and beat a Texas or OU along the way (as TCU has done), wait, watch and see how quickly the city of Denton and their citizens rush to embrace UNT football.

I doubt that happens anytime soon, but I guess we can dream.

Exactly. We seem to enjoy finding victories in the losing. For example, when Dickey left, the ath dept put forth that discipline and grades were a problem. So by year 2 of Dodgeball, in the midst of losing, we were told that the grades and discipline had greatly improved. Then, according to Mac & the athletic department, grades and discipline were awful under Dodge. So that took away from things and got in the way of winning right away, but in year 2 he talks as does the ath dept about how much grades and discipline, for the most part, have improved. We are like a volunteer fire department in that we celebrate putting out the campfires, but the forest is still burning.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Green Dozer

[UNT90]

Exactly. We seem to enjoy finding victories in the losing. For example, when Dickey left, the ath dept put forth that discipline and grades were a problem. So by year 2 of Dodgeball, in the midst of losing, we were told that the grades and discipline had greatly improved. Then, according to Mac & the athletic department, grades and discipline were awful under Dodge. So that took away from things and got in the way of winning right away, but in year 2 he talks as does the ath dept about how much grades and discipline, for the most part, have improved. We are like a volunteer fire department in that we celebrate putting out the campfires, but the forest is still burning.

It's all spin. When you aren't winning, point to how improved the academics have been, then when you fire a coach, and the new coach comes in, again talk about bad academics because our fan base has proven that they either don't pay attention long enough or don't care enough to remember what you said just 2 years earlier.

And there are NEVER any consequences, so why not keep the spin going?

[shaft]

we got passed by really fast and very easily because there was just not much support for Dickey's SBC champions from the majority of the fans and the media.

Stop. I'm one of the biggest DD defenders on this board, but you've got it wrong.

DD failed to upgrade his coaching staff and recruiting practices with each SBC championship. Ramon Flanigan and stealth recruiting didn't make sense in 2003 & 2004. DD's inability to capitalize on momentum is a lesson we should learn from.

The truth is RV used the SBC championship as momentum for the atheletic village and new stadium. It's the coaching staff job to use momentum for a better product, not the fans or the local media.

[Harry]

Stop. I'm one of the biggest DD defenders on this board, but you've got it wrong.

DD failed to upgrade his coaching staff and recruiting practices with each SBC championship. Ramon Flanigan and stealth recruiting didn't make sense in 2003 & 2004. DD's inability to capitalize on momentum is a lesson we should learn from.

The truth is RV used the SBC championship as momentum for the atheletic village and new stadium. It's the coaching staff job to use momentum for a better product, not the fans or the local media.

A lot of truth here shaft. I remember being at one of the early New Orleans bowls wondering how we were doing on mid term jucos, as I believe signing day coincided with the bowl trip (which didn't help recruiting btw). I think that staff was so elated and drunk on success they sort of let it slip through their fingers.

[ragpicker]

Our lack of recruiting success, especially following the opening of Apogee, is baffling to me. TD really was a more successful recruiter with much less to offer in the way of facilities.

[UNTLifer]

Yes, "drunk" is a good description to use.

[LongJim]

I grew up in Fort Worth about 4 miles from Amon Carter Stadium. Trust me, TCU didn't start being "Fort Worth's team" until they STARTED WINNING!

I used to go to games for free because no one wanted to watch a loser. We would run around the stadium (upper deck completely empty) rarely watching the action on the field. Jim Wacker won a little one year, and suddenly Fort Worth was interested. Waker left, the Frogs got bad again, and no one cared again. TCU started to win in the early 00s. This is when the city began to support the team. Everybody loves a winner who wins when it matters.

Have to agree with this. I lived in FW for the last 12 years, and although FW support increased somewhat over what it was in the 90's, TCU doesn't really draw flies unless a big name is in town. It was absolutely no issue getting 2 for 1 deals on tickets for games with schools like Wyoming, Colorado State and San Jose State. Even when LT was there, they were not selling out AC, and the guy was being pushed hard by TCU's AD for Heisman. While I agree TCU is doing good things now, and drawing fans, this can directly be traced to winning games. Specifically, high-profile games like the Rose Bowl and beating Boise. Having said that--they are a good nutshell view of what UNT can emulate.

[LongJim]

One other thing I'll mention, and I'll leave it alone. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that UNT is struggling to recruit DL and OL talent. We've all been saying this for the better part of this decade. It's extremely difficult for ANY school not in the top 10-15 to get those guys because they are so rare. The good news is that you don't have to find an entire line worth of 5* guys. You only really need 1 or 2 to make a huge difference.

The last thing is this--McCarney has absolutely begun to turn around the difference in size and strength of UNT's team. Look back at the size of the recruits this team was getting just 2-3 years ago and where they are now. The machine is in place. It needs to be fed now. IMO, this signing class was essentially Mac's 2nd. I think the team has improved tremendously in that span, and now it's up to the coaches and players to see what they can deliver on the field this year. No predictions yet, but as we began to see last year, UNT is now much better coached, and is looking more and more like a program that matches up well physically with the teams they are playing. That was not the case in the last 7-8 years.

EDIT: I just saw that the DMN ran a story on what I just mentioned regarding size, speed, and the like. Agree 100%.

Edited April 4, 2013 by LongJim

[H-towngreen]

DD failed to upgrade his coaching staff and recruiting practices with each SBC championship. Ramon Flanigan and stealth recruiting didn't make sense in 2003 & 2004. DD's inability to capitalize on momentum is a lesson we should learn from.

.

THIS. I've thought this was the biggest failure during my tenure of being a UNT fan. DD lived off of one class. With what we had going on on the field Dickey should've been able to get higher end recruits in here. He went the other way. 4 straight bowls, conference championships, longest conference win streak in the nation, yet the talent seemed to decrease in each recruiting class. It's so frustrating to think back and see how DD failed in recruiting.

[Censored by Laurie]

I grew up in Fort Worth about 4 miles from Amon Carter Stadium. Trust me, TCU didn't start being "Fort Worth's team" until they STARTED WINNING!

This. I grew up in Ft. Worth during the LT,16-team WAC years...TCU was good, but any sort of national attention was centered around the 300, 400 yard rushing games LT was throwing down, not the 8-4 WAC records TCU was putting up. I could walk up to Amon Carter, show my high school ID and get a $5 GA ticket and go have my choice of seats in the lower bowl. Place was at best 2/3rds full.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Exactly. We seem to enjoy finding victories in the losing. For example, when Dickey left, the ath dept put forth that discipline and grades were a problem. So by year 2 of Dodgeball, in the midst of losing, we were told that the grades and discipline had greatly improved. Then, according to Mac & the athletic department, grades and discipline were awful under Dodge. So that took away from things and got in the way of winning right away, but in year 2 he talks as does the ath dept about how much grades and discipline, for the most part, have improved. We are like a volunteer fire department in that we celebrate putting out the campfires, but the forest is still burning.

Unfortunately, this is very true. It's a problem, a real problem. We've been on the bottom rung of the FBS competitive food chain and haven't had a winning season for eight years. Three coaches, all with different backgrounds to get here, and none of them could win.

We've got big hopes pinned on Dan because I think we all realize if he can't do it, it's hard to envision someone else coming in and doing it. A big, new, empty stadium isn't what anyone anticipated.

[untjim1995]

This. I grew up in Ft. Worth during the LT,16-team WAC years...TCU was good, but any sort of national attention was centered around the 300, 400 yard rushing games LT was throwing down, not the 8-4 WAC records TCU was putting up. I could walk up to Amon Carter, show my high school ID and get a $5 GA ticket and go have my choice of seats in the lower bowl. Place was at best 2/3rds full.

I guess my point in this is that Ft. Worth's support of TCU helped a small school in enrollment to have crowds that were around 25k or more. Even a 2/3rds full ACS cannot happen with just TCU students and local alumni who can go to games. Denton has never given UNT that same support--unless we brought someone to town that the locals had heard of or cared about in the season home opener (see Baylor, Rice, Tulsa, Houston, TCU, UNLV, etc...). I get that FW is much bigger than Denton and its surrounding cities, but a "big" crowd at Fouts or Apogee is anything over 20k. Its my belief that if Dentonites supported UNT Football or Basketball at a level that is similar to what FW has given to TCU, we would have crowds of 25k or higher at ever single game, when you factor in student enrollmetn and local alumni.

Maybe winning would do the trick this time--but it didn't in the 70s, nor did in Dickey's heyday.

Shaft, thanks for correcting me on why the program fell off under DD. I agree much more with what you posted on the reasons we fell off. Seeing Ramon Flanigan's name again reminded me of just how ridiculous things got at the end for the Dickey regime. Remember RF fighting SE in the stands over the reality that we were being outcoached (again) during some SBC game? And he didn't even get suspended for that...he should have been fired on the spot.

[UNTLifer]

One other thing I'll mention, and I'll leave it alone. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that UNT is struggling to recruit DL and OL talent. We've all been saying this for the better part of this decade. It's extremely difficult for ANY school not in the top 10-15 to get those guys because they are so rare. The good news is that you don't have to find an entire line worth of 5* guys. You only really need 1 or 2 to make a huge difference.

The last thing is this--McCarney has absolutely begun to turn around the difference in size and strength of UNT's team. Look back at the size of the recruits this team was getting just 2-3 years ago and where they are now. The machine is in place. It needs to be fed now. IMO, this signing class was essentially Mac's 2nd. I think the team has improved tremendously in that span, and now it's up to the coaches and players to see what they can deliver on the field this year. No predictions yet, but as we began to see last year, UNT is now much better coached, and is looking more and more like a program that matches up well physically with the teams they are playing. That was not the case in the last 7-8 years.

EDIT: I just saw that the DMN ran a story on what I just mentioned regarding size, speed, and the like. Agree 100%.

I agree to some extent. I would argue, though, about the OL. Johnson and Y'Barbo were in Dodge's last class and Lemon was in Mac's first. I don't think OL recruiting has suffered too terribly, but it is tough to find DL, or I should say, DT talent.

[FirefightnRick]

So....Tulsa, UTEP, Rice, Texas State, SMU, Arkansas State, ULM, and ULL can from time to time find D Line players who can beat a double team now and then...........................but North Texas just can't because we are....well......North Texas?

Rick

Edited April 4, 2013 by FirefightnRick

[UNTLifer]

I looked at every Tulsa class back to 02. They had a number of classes with no DT's signed and the majority with 2 stars that had some sort of size issue, either too short with good weight or tall and a tad too light. They also had a number of JUCO's. Point being, unless you are a Big 5 conference school it is a hit and miss process.