UNT celebrates 100 years with All-Century team

[Harry]

As a part of the 100th year of football at UNT, Mean Green athletics
is hosting a vote for the fans and a specially selected committee to
create a UNT All-Century football team.

A panel of UNT Hall of Fame members, administrators, media members
and others put together a ballot for fans to choose past and current
players to represent the All-Century team at their respective positions.

“Part of the process was that, in 100 years of football, we needed to
put the debate out there as to who was the best football player,”
Athletic Director Rick Villarreal said.

The fan vote will make up 50 percent of the vote and the other half will come from a separate final selection committee.

“A lot of the people that we have selected [for the committee] that
have been around North Texas athletics for 40 or 50 years have the best
ability to compare those types of players with the current players,”
said senior associate athletic director Eric Capper. “The way the
committee was selected was we just basically tried to get as much of a
cross section of several different eras and several different
generations to provide some balance and the other side of it was we are
going to let the fans decide.”

Read more: http://wordpress1.cws.unt.edu/?p=2583

[Cooley]

Not that anyone cares but I'm not voting. A list that does not include Ken Washington (QB) on the ballot is a joke. He has only been the best QB we've had since I started following the program in 1975. As expected, the early results indicates a popularity contest.

[FirefightnRick]

I'm a bit skeptical of this list as well.

How can Corky Nelson be listed as the 1993 Conference Coach Of The Year when he was fired in 1990?

Either way, two guys I'm definitely voting for is the All Time leader in field goals made...(49)....Keith Chapman...( there should be a category for Big-Time-Pressure-Cooker game winning kicks, and Chappy would be at the top of that too),.... And Andy Brewster for O lineman.

Rick

Edited February 28, 2013 by FirefightnRick

[GrandGreen]

It is an interesting list and I think overall pretty good. I do question the way the vote is tallied, with the fan vote only accounting for half, but people allowed to vote as many times as they want. Depending how they merge the two votes, the panel could easily override any fan vote.

A few unsolicited comments on the reported voting

QB - For Cooley, you must be too young to have seen Ramsey. He is undoubtedly the best. I do agree that Ken Washington should have been on the ballot. I would rate him signifying better than two of the leaders Case and Hall. Hall was a great leader and accomplished a lot with a Belt dominating team, however there have been several much better QB's. Maher, Davis, Washington, Ramsey. Case was good QB, but can't match the career of any of the QB's mentioned here.

TE - Is a bad category, one of the best Luis Silva is not on the list. Witte was ok but not great and Waters is apparently on the ballot because of his pro career as an offensive lineman.

DL - I am a Walter Chapman fan and he should be a shoo in along with Greene, Hardman, and Kennedy. The three other leaders for the fourth spot, Elliott, Garrett and Awasom are not close. Elliot even being on the ballot is strange, he had all the talent in the world but had a checkered career at NT. He like Waters was a much much better pro player than college.

DB - Lot of good players here, but Anthony Bridges should never have been included. He was a 2nd team AA at Louisville, and his one year at NT he was injured most of the year. He could have been a great player at NT, but that just did not happen. A couple of very good players being short changed on the vote: Lenard Dunlap a first round draft choice and J. T. Smith. Smith was all pro as wr in the pros, but was a very good db and returner at NT.

[SilverEagle]

It is an interesting list and I think overall pretty good. I do question the way the vote is tallied, with the fan vote only accounting for half, but people allowed to vote as many times as they want. Depending how they merge the two votes, the panel could easily override any fan vote.

A few unsolicited comments on the reported voting

QB - For Cooley, you must be too young to have seen Ramsey. He is undoubtedly the best. I do agree that Ken Washington should have been on the ballot. I would rate him signifying better than two of the leaders Case and Hall. Hall was a great leader and accomplished a lot with a Belt dominating team, however there have been several much better QB's. Maher, Davis, Washington, Ramsey. Case was good QB, but can't match the career of any of the QB's mentioned here.

I agree that Washington should have been on the list so that people could have a chance to vote for him, but I totally disagree with you and Cooley about his abilities. He was way overrated. To put it in perspective for the new guys on the board, Ken Washington was Hayden Fry's Andrew McNulty. As I said in a previous thread, Joe Stevenson was a better QB than Washington.

The best that ever played here were Ramsey, Case, Davis, Maher and Hall.

TE - Is a bad category, one of the best Luis Silva is not on the list. Witte was ok but not great and Waters is apparently on the ballot because of his pro career as an offensive lineman.

Totally agree with this. Leaving out Silva was a huge oversight.

But in the catagory of big oversights, how about Barry Moore being left off completely for wr. Ronnie Shanklin had a pro career, but according to the official stats he never led the team in receptions while he was here (67, 68, 69). Those reception leaders were James Russel (67) and Barry Moore (68-69). Ron Shanklin ended up have a larger total, but that was over three years. Barry Moore (like John Love) only played 2. On the all-time single season receiving record, Barry Moore is #2 and #5.

Running Backs. How do you leave off our first ever (68) 1K rusher Leo Taylor? His career totals in rushing were 1672 vs Pegrams 1470. Plus Taylors best year(68) in all-purpose yards was 1652 vs Pegram's 1594. Plus, Taylor was playing on a team that played a D-1 schedule instead of a 1-AA schedule.

DL - I am a Walter Chapman fan and he should be a shoo in along with Greene, Hardman, and Kennedy. The three other leaders for the fourth spot, Elliott, Garrett and Awasom are not close. Elliot even being on the ballot is strange, he had all the talent in the world but had a checkered career at NT. He like Waters was a much much better pro player than college.

Elliott was a transfer from a big 10 school (I think Wisconsin). As I recall, he had some issues there and was either kicked out or was asked to leave. He did well in the pros, but I think he had some "issues" there as well. I don't recall him getting into any trouble here.

If I had my preferences for the top four, I would much rather see Corbin Montgomery get in the top four than Awasom....along with Greene, Chapman, and Hardeman. Also choosing Chapman over Rex Johnson was a tough call for me.

DB - Lot of good players here, but Anthony Bridges should never have been included. He was a 2nd team AA at Louisville, and his one year at NT he was injured most of the year. He could have been a great player at NT, but that just did not happen. b a

A couple of very good players being short changed on the vote: Leonard Dunlap a first round draft choice and J. T. Smith. Smith was all pro as wr in the pros, but was a very good db and returner at NT.

How are they being short changed? They're both on the list.

I think Jay Saad (#17 on your program) was an unfortunate omission from the DB list.

Edited February 28, 2013 by SilverEagle

[GrandGreen]

I agree that Washington should have been on the list so that people could have a chance to vote for him, but I totally disagree with you and Cooley about his abilities. He was way overrated. To put it in perspective for the new guys on the board, Ken Washington was Hayden Fry's Andrew McNulty. As I said in a previous thread, Joe Stevenson was a better QB than Washington.

The best that ever played here were Ramsey, Case, Davis, Maher and Hall.

Totally agree with this. Leaving out Silva was a huge oversight.

But in the catagory of big oversights, how about Barry Moore being left off completely for wr. Ronnie Shanklin had a pro career, but according to the official stats he never led the team in receptions while he was here (67, 68, 69). Those reception leaders were James Russel (67) and Barry Moore (68-69). Ron Shanklin ended up have a larger total, but that was over three years. Barry Moore (like John Love) only played 2. On the all-time single season receiving record, Barry Moore is #2 and #5.

Running Backs. How do you leave off our first ever (68) 1K rusher Leo Taylor? His career totals in rushing were 1672 vs Pegrams 1470. Plus Taylors best year(68) in all-purpose yards was 1652 vs Pegram's 1594. Plus, Taylor was playing on a team that played a D-1 schedule instead of a 1-AA schedule.

Elliott was a transfer from a big 10 school (I think Wisconsin). As I recall, he had some issues there and was either kicked out or was asked to leave. He did well in the pros, but I think he had some "issues" there as well. I don't recall him getting into any trouble here.

If I had my preferences for the top four, I would much rather see Corbin Montgomery get in the top four than Awasom....along with Greene, Chapman, and Hardeman. Also choosing Chapman over Rex Johnson was a tough call for me.

How are they being short changed? They're both on the list.

I think Jay Saad (#17 on your program) was an unfortunate omission from the DB list.

Good thoughts, added debate:

QB: Ramsey, again the best; no debate. Disagree on Washington and Stephenson. Washington was not at all like McNulty unless McNulty really has a good last three years. Washington was definitely a run first QB while Stephenson was a pass first player.

WR Wrs were a loaded position for the Green. Barry Moore was a great possession receiver but Shanklin was the deep threat and focus of the defenses No comparison.

RB, also a loaded position; Taylor was a solid rb, kind of like the current Byrd. He did fumble a lot and I would not compare him with many of those nominated. Pegram played on an awful team and took a terrible beating, I think if he played on a better team he would have numbers to match any NT back.

DB: I think Smith and Dunlap are being short changed because it is reported they have less votes than some dbs who IMO are inferior to them.

DL: Rex Johnson was good but again I think the top 4 should be run away choices. Elliot did have alleged issues at NT, he was at Minnesota I think were he started as a freshmen. The college Elliot unlike the pro Elliot was a very imposing physical athlete with something like 2% body fat. He in fact may have been a little too ripped thus the at least alleged issues.

Edited February 28, 2013 by GrandGreen

[Cooley]

Actually GrandGreen, Washington was not a run first QB. Wash had a rifle arm that could and would bring the ball down when necessary; to get the first down. People talk about intangibles all the time. Ken had it. This was clearly his team and Fry had every confidence in the world in him when black quarterback rarely existed.

Steve Ramsey, I agree, is the consensus "Best Ever" (Based 100% on what I've read and been told prior to my enrollment) Ken Washington would have played for most schools in the country and as I stated earlier, the best QB since 1975. For some reason, Silver continues to jump on here and hate on Ken Washington. Silver was obviously much younger then and spent too much time watching the coeds during Ken's games.

Spoke to Joe Stevenson, a justice of the peace in Beaumont, during homecoming this past year. I am Facebook friends with Joe and we were in the same organization back in the day. Joe was never in the same class as Ken Washington. (period) In fact, Joe only started 1 year (after Washington and Case were gone). Silver, how can Ken Washington be Hayden Fry's Andy McNulty when he started every game his entire career? Additionally, lead the team to the only National Ranking in school history? (D1) Do you realize that Ken Washington is already in the Hall of Fame? (and ahead of Jordan Case) Come on man, you are quickly losing credibility on this board with this continual nonsense! This committee left Ken Washington off the damn ballot!!!

I really liked Mitch Maher at the time. He was a good D1AA option QB but not on the same level as Ramsey, Washington and Case. Scott Hall was not even the best QB on the team, imoa, and should not be mentioned in this thread at all. I also liked Scott Davis a lot but he was a notch below Washington and Jordan Case. He picked up some huge victories over Texas Tech, Rice and others.

It would be neat if Coach Fry could chime in on this topic during his time as coach. Absent of this, you can only go by who he had as starters. Right Silver?

[ragpicker]

Agree with the Ken Washington comment. I saw him lead us to near victory Texas one night in the 70's when Texas still had Darrell Royal AND Earl Cambell.

[SilverEagle]

Actually GrandGreen, Washington was not a run first QB. Wash had a rifle arm that could and would bring the ball down when necessary; to get the first down. People talk about intangibles all the time. Ken had it. This was clearly his team and Fry had every confidence in the world in him when black quarterback rarely existed.

Ken Washington came to North Texas because Hayden Fry promised him that he would play QB. Every other school that recruited him wanted him as a WR or RB.....or athlete. To Hayden Fry's credit, he kept that promise. Ken Washington had a very strong arm, but he was very inconsistent with it.....and he had no touch on the ball. He would often fling it down field, rather than throw it. You are right, he didn't run first, but he did get happy feet pretty quickly, and then proceeded to do his Fran Tarkington imitation.....which often resulted in a big loss.

Steve Ramsey, I agree, is the consensus "Best Ever" (Based 100% on what I've read and been told prior to my enrollment) Ken Washington would have played for most schools in the country and as I stated earlier, the best QB since 1975. For some reason, Silver continues to jump on here and hate on Ken Washington. Silver was obviously much younger then and spent too much time watching the coeds during Ken's games.

Spoke to Joe Stevenson, a justice of the peace in Beaumont, during homecoming this past year. I am Facebook friends with Joe and we were in the same organization back in the day. Joe was never in the same class as Ken Washington. (period) In fact, Joe only started 1 year (after Washington and Case were gone).

Never in the same class? Ken Washington's best year of total offense was 1974...1523. Joe Stevenson's only year of full time starting (1980) 1671. Joe started at least one game in 78 and probably 79. I know for sure he started the So. Miss game in 78 and kicked their asses 25-12.

Silver, how can Ken Washington be Hayden Fry's Andy McNulty when he started every game his entire career? Additionally, lead the team to the only National Ranking in school history? (D1) Do you realize that Ken Washington is already in the Hall of Fame? (and ahead of Jordan Case) Come on man, you are quickly losing credibility on this board with this continual nonsense! This committee left Ken Washington off the damn ballot!!!

If your meaning is that Ken Washington started every game when he was healthy, then you are right. He was so often injured in the middle part of his career that Glenn Ray (75) and Ken Smith (76) are listed in the stats book as the passing leaders those years. A good friend of mine was the sports editor of the Gainesville Newspaper during that era and covered North Texas football. He told me (at that time) that many of the players on the team thought that Glenn Ray and Ken Smith were much more effective in moving the team than Ken Washington. But every time that Ken Washington got able to play during the 75/76 seasons, he immediately put Washington in regardless of how effective Ray or Smith were being in moving the team.

So when I say that Ken Washington was Hayden Fry's Andrew McNulty, it's in reference to Coach Mac starting McNulty during the 2011 season when he had (in many people's humble opinion) a much more effective QB standing on the sidelines in Brent Osborn.

I really liked Mitch Maher at the time. He was a good D1AA option QB but not on the same level as Ramsey, Washington and Case. Scott Hall was not even the best QB on the team, imoa, and should not be mentioned in this thread at all.

In the words of George Taki (Mr. Sulu on Star Trek)......Oh my! Now it's you who is losing credibility....unless you're just being intentionally provocative.

I also liked Scott Davis a lot but he was a notch below Washington and Jordan Case. He picked up some huge victories over Texas Tech, Rice and others.

Scott Davis a notch below Washington? More erosion of credibility here. Geez louise...

It would be neat if Coach Fry could chime in on this topic during his time as coach. Absent of this, you can only go by who he had as starters. Right Silver?

Coach Fry would be too diplomatic to honestly engage in such a debate. Besides, one of the biggest faults that I've found with most coaches is that once they have made a decision about a player, they rarely admit that they were wrong....their egos get in the way.

AND, as much as I love what Coach Fry did for North Texas he was not above telling a big whopper. He once told an Iowa reporter that he had gone out and raised 26 million dollars to built the coliseum here at NT. He wasn't even here when the coliseum was being built. And 26 million? I've posted the text of that on the board before.

...but just in case you have any doubts......

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20040704/SPORTS11/50708005/Hayden-Fry-University-Iowa-2004

Edited March 1, 2013 by SilverEagle

[Varsity]

Silver Eagle, you are right about Hayden Fry. If you've read his book, you know he has a tendency to stretch the truth.

I'll take Ramesy over Washington.

Offensive lineman Willie Parker ought to be on the team as well.

[UNTexas]

Not having Louis Silva at tight end on this list makes it a joke.

I would add Mitch Maher to me is the best QB on the list. He was/is a great leader, player, and all around top shelf individual. He made those around him play better.

[ragpicker]

Foot ball smootball, I vote for Don January and Sandra Palmer.

[GrandGreen]

One thing to remember is that prior to 1972, freshmen were not eligible for varsity competition. So when you look at stats and accolades of Abner Haynes, Steve Ramsey, Ron Shanklin, and a host of other old timers; remember that a lot of their stats would be significantly higher if they played four years like more modern players such as Maher, Cobbs, Dunbar, and others.

[ragpicker]

Good point Grand Green. Some may forget just how good Abner Haynes was. He was the old AFL's first superstar even though the coin toss thing was an embarrassment that I am sure he wishes would just go away. It won't, even after all these years.

[Cooley]

Ken Washington came to North Texas because Hayden Fry promised him that he would play QB. Every other school that recruited him wanted him as a WR or RB.....or athlete. To Hayden Fry's credit, he kept that promise. Ken Washington had a very strong arm, but he was very inconsistent with it.....and he had no touch on the ball. He would often fling it down field, rather than throw it. You are right, he didn't run first, but he did get happy feet pretty quickly, and then proceeded to do his Fran Tarkington imitation.....which often resulted in a big loss.

There you go again Silver, misleading the readers. lol

Hayden Fry recruited the first African American to the SW Conference while at SMU (Jerry Levias) Jerry was all-world and had a great pro career. Silver, you know that colleges didn't recruit or play blacks at the quarterback positon during those days. As I stated, Ken Washington could have played and excelled for any school in the country. Again, I am amazed at where this wild throwing stuff is coming from. Wash was probably behind Steve Ramsey and no one else at North Texas.

Hall of Famer Ken Washington - Doesn't make the fan ballot?

http://www.unt.edu/50yearsofprogress/athletic/pages/206_jpg.htm

Ken, the drop back passer (Barry Switzer)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1090317/index.htm

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&dat=19740919&id=dgtaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZUsNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3573,3170193

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_LeVias

Edited March 5, 2013 by Cooley

[Cooley]

Hayden Fry's Book (A High Porch Picnic)

NT section - Page 89

http://books.google.com/books?id=bANS-aNcpn4C&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=hayden+fry+talks+about+ken+washington&source=bl&ots=XUOWkVYAOU&sig=tzwkvMqWRpnovSLsRRFxVPv_3nc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Yjw1Uf_LJImrqAGJj4GwDA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Harry]

Hayden Fry's Book (A High Porch Picnic)

NT section - Page 89

http://books.google.com/books?id=bANS-aNcpn4C&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=hayden+fry+talks+about+ken+washington&source=bl&ots=XUOWkVYAOU&sig=tzwkvMqWRpnovSLsRRFxVPv_3nc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Yjw1Uf_LJImrqAGJj4GwDA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Wow great read -- thanks so much for posting that!!!

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Ramsey, Joe Green, Hardeman, and Abner Haynes are absolute no brainers to be chosen... If not it will be because of younger voters that never saw or heard of them. Shanklin, B.Kennedy and maybe J.T. Smith are close to that. Spider Lockhart was very good in NFL, don't remember much college hype.

[North Texas Shep]

Hayden Fry's Book (A High Porch Picnic)

NT section - Page 89

http://books.google.com/books?id=bANS-aNcpn4C&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=hayden+fry+talks+about+ken+washington&source=bl&ots=XUOWkVYAOU&sig=tzwkvMqWRpnovSLsRRFxVPv_3nc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Yjw1Uf_LJImrqAGJj4GwDA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

That is a good read. I came to school here in 2001 and sadly do not know much about the past players. So, this excerpt was very insightful. Thanks! Oh, and I wish Coach Fry had a UNT helmet somewhere in the cover. That would be asking a lot though.