Will Darnell: UNT has a football problem

[untjim1995]

I posted this yesterday from a different thread. Amazingly, in less than one day, a student reporter for the NT Daily writes a column that validates the belief that this school has a large amount of people connected to it that still loather athletics. HIs article highlights the real animosity from a large segment of the university that still feels UNT athletics is a waste and is unsupportable. Read the highlighted sentence below, which I posted in response to what has held this university's athletic teams from making much progress over the last 60 years, especially when compared to the schools in Texas, Louisiana, and Oklahoma. It doesn't matter if its the early 70s (vote to end football), early 80s (allow the program to go down to 1-aa), late 90s and early 00s (vote down every single attempt to fund a stadium), the student body has steadily shown how little they care about sports here. I'm here to tell you that its dweebs like this guy who will go on to work at the DRC and work to keep up the mainstream thought in Denton that UNT athletics isn't worth it because it hurts our "value" proposition--iow, we can't be as cheap as we want to be here because evil football costs too much. If the university doesn't want to pay to play at the FBS level, then just quit wasting our time.

greenminer, on 11 Feb 2013 - 20:54, said:

I think for about 60+ years, our administration and culture actually did, and it wasn't subconscious.

I think those decades were full of the thought that we are first and foremost a fine arts and music school, with a huge focus, as well, on educating teachers. Nothing wrong with any of those, either, but for whatever the reasons, that led to the most of the UNT and Denton community loathing athletics, especially spending anything on them. I'm still convinced that this university's leadership, faculty, alumni, and students care waaaayyyyyy more about the Green Brigade than they do about the Mean Green. The One O'Clock Lab Band matters way more to the university's reputation within those groups previously listed, in my opinion, than the performance of our athletic teams. And I think we love the history of being an affordable college that has been a great place for teachers to attend, instead of cultivating our connection with DFW businesses to an even better level than we have done over the years. Like it or not, business majors, engineering majors, and science majors have the best ability to be your bigger donors down the road, if they have been given a reason to want to give back. I love going to watch a concert at the Murchison Center or to hear about the many Grammys that a musician or band from UNT have earned, but those events and the headlines they produce are limited to thousands less than what a football game or basketball game brings into the university and the city. College Station, Waco, Austin, Lubbock, El Paso, Ft. Worth, Dallas, and Houston have all benefitted from winning college teams at various times over those same 60 years. It may very welll happen in cities like San Antonio and San Marcos, too. But if you look back at our history, we didn't attend games at Fouts when Fry had ranked teams in the 70s. We didn't attend games when Dickey's teams won in the early 00's. We haven't attended games so far at Apogee to see any marked difference from the years at Fouts, even though the new stadium was 20+ years late in being built. The Super Pit has been routinely empty except for about 1/4 to 1/3 of its seats for most of the last 30 years. Denton is a totally different animal to coach in and play in for college athletics than any of those other towns. Not making excuses with that, just seems to be a fact that cannot seemed to be proven untrue, no matter how much we try to convince us that things may change here for this sleeping giant anytime soon.

[Eastwood Eagle]

1. Who the f___ is Will Darnell?

I think he may work at Bleacher Report. Unless he made this in to a top 100 reasons why UNT should not have football I refuse to read.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Mostly agree with what you've posted above, UNTJim, but I will add some demographic differences of 2 different athletic eras at UNT.

Fry Era (hired December, 1972, and then took Iowa U job in December, 1978).

City of Denton...............39,000 pop.

Denton County..............99,000 pop.

North Texas Enr............17,000

DFW alums?................. No One Seemed To Know.............because we didn't have an established alumnus association nor did North Texas keep records on our graduates especailly during its "teachers college" era....one would attempt to organize after Fry came to Denton when it appeared that UNT wanted to try to play in the Big Leagues and do things the way Big Time schools did..........like have an alumnus association? Former UNT Prez J.C. Matthews was said to not be a proponent of a school having too influential of an alumnus base . NOTE: North Texas Prez' Jitter Nolen was as supportive as present UNT Prez' Lane Rawlins since he and UNT V.P. Roy Busby led the way to hire Fry after SMU had fired him following a 7 & 4 football season at SMU in 1972..................It was said that SMU alum Dick Davis (a teammate of Doak Walker) wanted Fry gone so guess what(?)...........he was............gone.

Fry came to Denton after Rod Rust last team in 1972 was 0 and 11(?). AD/HFC Fry literally started from scratch at a much smaller North Texas of which many of our "teacher's college" crowd back then wanted football to be dropped. Fry was very much loathed by that group almost from Day One until the day he left Denton for the Big 10.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Present Era At North Texas

City of Denton.................120,000

Denton County................700,000 (and growing)

UNT Enr..............................approx 36,500 Fall numbers

DFW Alums........................one UNT publication said over 200,000 NT alums in the North Texas Metroplex.

The home football attendance from the Fry Era which may have averaged 15-16,000 overall counting Texas Stadium games compared to the present just

shows that our growth in attendance at present is not even close to being commensurate with our sky-rocketing growth of the last 20 plus years in the Greater Denton area. That to me is the biggest of all disappointments in every bit of this as it would only make sense that

we would have more than progressed from the 15-16,000 per home game numbers which we were doing almost 40 years ago. Sorta' why some of us

would really like to have a full blown "do whatever it takes to get new fans" marketing program to go after all the above constituency numbers.

Yet our main failure to launch this present athletic program with the above "most impressive" constituency numbers is mostly because of our non-stop annual losing records in most all our revenue producing sports.

All the new and new (older) facilities we've added at the Mean Green Village merely need winning teams in each of them and when that happens we will have the beginnings of a successful athletic program. Venues without winning teams are like having an Indy' 500 deluxe race car with one of us on this forum driving it next Indy' 500 Day this May.

We all appreciate the work Chancelor Jackson, ex NT prex Battaille, present NT prez' Rawlins, the UNT students who passed the new football stadium referendum and AD Rick Villarreal have done to get all these venues in place but for all practical purposes, what were the real alternatives at North Texas if we didn't add them? To drop athletics, go down a level to NCAA FCS or even a lower NCAA level seems to me to have been those only options.

GMG!

Edited February 14, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[ragpicker]

The first amendment guarantees the right of free speech and press - even stupid, misinformed, ignorant, asinine, boorish,really crummy, goofy, weird, convoluted and silly speech and press.

[All About UNT]

Will Darnell has no penis, just a hairless patch of skin where a penis should be.

[shaft]

So if your not #1 you should quit. Afterall you have an obligation to put all your eggs in one basket.

[oldguystudent]

^{Why is it that these people have a problems if the Athletic Department doesn't make a profit? How much money is the Journalism or English department making for the University?}

To be fair, the English department has hotter, freakier girls than the football team does.

[untjim1995]

Mostly agree with what you've posted above, UNTJim, but I will add some demographic differences of 2 different athletic eras at UNT.

Fry Era (hired December, 1972, and then took Iowa U job in December, 1978).

City of Denton...............39,000 pop.

Denton County..............99,000 pop.

North Texas Enr............17,000

DFW alums?................. No One Seemed To Know.............because we didn't have an established alumnus association nor did North Texas keep records on our graduates especailly during its "teachers college" era....one would attempt to organize after Fry came to Denton when it appeared that UNT wanted to try to play in the Big Leagues and do things the way Big Time schools did..........like have an alumnus association? Former UNT Prez J.C. Matthews was said to not be a proponent of a school having too influential of an alumnus base . NOTE: North Texas Prez' Jitter Nolen was as supportive as present UNT Prez' Lane Rawlins since he and UNT V.P. Roy Busby led the way to hire Fry after SMU had fired him following a 7 & 4 football season at SMU in 1972..................It was said that SMU alum Dick Davis (a teammate of Doak Walker) wanted Fry gone so guess what(?)...........he was............gone.

Fry came to Denton after Rod Rust last team in 1972 was 0 and 11(?). AD/HFC Fry literally started from scratch at a much smaller North Texas of which many of our "teacher's college" crowd back then wanted football to be dropped. Fry was very much loathed by that group almost from Day One until the day he left Denton for the Big 10.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Present Era At North Texas

City of Denton.................120,000

Denton County................700,000 (and growing)

UNT Enr..............................approx 36,500 Fall numbers

DFW Alums........................one UNT publication said over 200,000 NT alums in the North Texas Metroplex.

The home football attendance from the Fry Era which may have averaged 15-16,000 overall counting Texas Stadium games compared to the present just

shows that our growth in attendance at present is not even close to being commensurate with our sky-rocketing growth of the last 20 plus years in the Greater Denton area. That to me is the biggest of all disappointments in every bit of this as it would only make sense that

we would have more than progressed from the 15-16,000 per home game numbers which we were doing almost 40 years ago. Sorta' why some of us

would really like to have a full blown "do whatever it takes to get new fans" marketing program to go after all the above constituency numbers.

Yet our main failure to launch this present athletic program with the above "most impressive" constituency numbers is mostly because of our non-stop annual losing records in most all our revenue producing sports.

All the new and new (older) facilities we've added at the Mean Green Village merely need winning teams in each of them and when that happens we will have the beginnings of a successful athletic program. Venues without winning teams are like having an Indy' 500 deluxe race car with one of us on this forum driving it next Indy' 500 Day this May.

We all appreciate the work Chancelor Jackson, ex NT prex Battaille, present NT prez' Rawlins, the UNT students who passed the new football stadium referendum and AD Rick Villarreal have done to get all these venues in place but for all practical purposes, what were the real alternatives at North Texas if we didn't add them? To drop athletics, go down a level to NCAA FCS or even a lower NCAA level seems to me to have been those only options.

GMG!

PMG,

I appreciate you giving us the numbers to compare UNT and Denton from 40 years ago to today and it is staggering how much that city and county have grown, as well as the number of alums in the Metroplex. The problem, though, is that highlights even more that the overwhelming amount of people connected to this university (students, alumni, faculty, administration, BOR, Denton citizenry, and DFW media) seem to want UNT to either flounder as an athletic program or to have it completely go away. I still believe with all of my heart that if the student vote on Apogee and the athletics fee had been more publicized and gotten more play with the entire student body, then it would've been defeated, just like all of the previous efforts before it did. This place may have done more for athletics in the last deacde than it did for the previous 90 years combined, but its not becasue the majority of the UNT family wanted it to happen. They want music and arts and education first, atheltics last or completely cut. I just don't think you'll ever see the thinking of this NT Daily douche ever go away among the majority of the student body because North Texas and Denton have proven many times over that they prefer for that kind of thinking to prevail. The folks who move here from other places may like college football or college hoops, but the first thing they ever hear from the local citiznery, including the majority of UNT alumni or students is not to bother with it. If these people overwhelmingly hate athletics, then how can we ever expect that to change? Winning may be the cure, but winning in the 70s and in the 00s didn't do it for football attendance or support. Basketball success over the last decade has'nt even helped us achieve an average attendance of even close to 40% of capacity. It just seems to me that this is always going to be a tough road to go down. The town cares more about the Texas Longhorns than they do about North Texas. The Texas Rangers playoff game actually forces the AD to change the kickoff of a game because he KNOWS that the citizenry and student body care waaaayyyy more about them than they do about the NorthTexas Mean Green. Some of you, especially youself and other fans that have followed UNT sports for over 30 years, are amazing to me in your love for this place. I have followed us for the last 23 years. But sometimes, when I look back at all of this, it just makes me wonder how much more patient I'm gonna have to be to see this place produce a winner and fully support it beyond 15-20k in attendance for a top 30 sized school in the country in the middle of a football hotbed.

[MeanGreenTexan]

PMG,

I appreciate you giving us the numbers to compare UNT and Denton from 40 years ago to today and it is staggering how much that city and county have grown, as well as the number of alums in the Metroplex. The problem, though, is that highlights even more that the overwhelming amount of people connected to this university (students, alumni, faculty, administration, BOR, Denton citizenry, and DFW media) seem to want UNT to either flounder as an athletic program or to have it completely go away. I still believe with all of my heart that if the student vote on Apogee and the athletics fee had been more publicized and gotten more play with the entire student body, then it would've been defeated, just like all of the previous efforts before it did. This place may have done more for athletics in the last deacde than it did for the previous 90 years combined, but its not becasue the majority of the UNT family wanted it to happen. They want music and arts and education first, atheltics last or completely cut. I just don't think you'll ever see the thinking of this NT Daily douche ever go away among the majority of the student body because North Texas and Denton have proven many times over that they prefer for that kind of thinking to prevail. The folks who move here from other places may like college football or college hoops, but the first thing they ever hear from the local citiznery, including the majority of UNT alumni or students is not to bother with it. If these people overwhelmingly hate athletics, then how can we ever expect that to change? Winning may be the cure, but winning in the 70s and in the 00s didn't do it for football attendance or support. Basketball success over the last decade has'nt even helped us achieve an average attendance of even close to 40% of capacity. It just seems to me that this is always going to be a tough road to go down. The town cares more about the Texas Longhorns than they do about North Texas. The Texas Rangers playoff game actually forces the AD to change the kickoff of a game because he KNOWS that the citizenry and student body care waaaayyyy more about them than they do about the NorthTexas Mean Green. Some of you, especially youself and other fans that have followed UNT sports for over 30 years, are amazing to me in your love for this place. I have followed us for the last 23 years. But sometimes, when I look back at all of this, it just makes me wonder how much more patient I'm gonna have to be to see this place produce a winner and fully support it beyond 15-20k in attendance for a top 30 sized school in the country in the middle of a football hotbed.

Careful untjim1995. Lately you've ventured into PMG / Checkfacts territory as far as post length. Just a friendly alert.

[meangreener]

It's just typical Daily journalism...UNT has a journalism problem...move along...

[PlummMeanGreen]

PMG,

I appreciate you giving us the numbers to compare UNT and Denton from 40 years ago to today and it is staggering how much that city and county have grown, as well as the number of alums in the Metroplex. The problem, though, is that highlights even more that the overwhelming amount of people connected to this university (students, alumni, faculty, administration, BOR, Denton citizenry, and DFW media) seem to want UNT to either flounder as an athletic program or to have it completely go away. I still believe with all of my heart that if the student vote on Apogee and the athletics fee had been more publicized and gotten more play with the entire student body, then it would've been defeated, just like all of the previous efforts before it did. This place may have done more for athletics in the last deacde than it did for the previous 90 years combined, but its not becasue the majority of the UNT family wanted it to happen. They want music and arts and education first, atheltics last or completely cut. I just don't think you'll ever see the thinking of this NT Daily douche ever go away among the majority of the student body because North Texas and Denton have proven many times over that they prefer for that kind of thinking to prevail. The folks who move here from other places may like college football or college hoops, but the first thing they ever hear from the local citiznery, including the majority of UNT alumni or students is not to bother with it. If these people overwhelmingly hate athletics, then how can we ever expect that to change? Winning may be the cure, but winning in the 70s and in the 00s didn't do it for football attendance or support. Basketball success over the last decade has'nt even helped us achieve an average attendance of even close to 40% of capacity. It just seems to me that this is always going to be a tough road to go down. The town cares more about the Texas Longhorns than they do about North Texas. The Texas Rangers playoff game actually forces the AD to change the kickoff of a game because he KNOWS that the citizenry and student body care waaaayyyy more about them than they do about the NorthTexas Mean Green. Some of you, especially youself and other fans that have followed UNT sports for over 30 years, are amazing to me in your love for this place. I have followed us for the last 23 years. But sometimes, when I look back at all of this, it just makes me wonder how much more patient I'm gonna have to be to see this place produce a winner and fully support it beyond 15-20k in attendance for a top 30 sized school in the country in the middle of a football hotbed.

___________________________________________

Still it would have been interesting to see how different the last 30 plus years would have been had we had only put a string of winning football and basketball seasons together which among some of those wins (in football, specifically) would have been a handful of "W's" over a few Top 10 and/or Top 25 ranked schools a la ULM and La Tech.. That is how Boise State's program rose from the depths of where it had been.

For North Texas, Conference-USA is going to really be a high powered microscope of what we have, where we've been and how far we have to go to be one of its premier Top 25 programs, such as Southern Miss, Tulsa and UH have been in recent years. We cannot afford to be the school that brings the competition level down to some of our prior levels (along with low rankings) that goes bowling since that was the Sun Belt way of doing things.. And a Sun Belt Conference which has yet to this day have a Top 25 ranked football school. I think expecations will be higher among our elect as a CUSA member and it is also a fair assumption to believe we will have more traveling fans coming to Apogee than in our entire past football history and that because of our new regional conference rivals--many of whom have large alumnus bodies in the DFW Metroplex alone.

On Another Front: It blows me away how college football has caught on with future CUSA member ODU with almost 15,000 annual football season tickets being sold and a waiting list for others when they expand their stadium.

Fact Check that with this link..............http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=380268

GMG!

Edited February 15, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[CurveItAround]

Why does this kid think he can get away with constantly writing negative stuff about the school and running the athletic programs down? It's not like he is an award winning GMG poster.

[GreenMachine]

Why does this kid think he can get away with constantly writing negative stuff about the school and running the athletic programs down? It's not like he is an award winning GMG poster.

He's mad because the football team ran a train on his momma.

[wardly]

The first amendment guarantees the right of free speech and press - even stupid, misinformed, ignorant, asinine, boorish,really crummy, goofy, weird, convoluted and silly speech and press.

As shown by most of our post's.

[runt96]

Will Darnell has no penis, just a hairless patch of skin where a penis should be.

Thats on the mark, funny

[JesseMartin]

Is this that fat 45 year old career student again?

You're probably thinking of Chuck Norton. He's pretty opposed to a lot of standards like authority and sports, but is not a moron, just very opinionated.

The first amendment guarantees the right of free speech and press - even stupid, misinformed, ignorant, asinine, boorish,really crummy, goofy, weird, convoluted and silly speech and press.

It's just typical Daily journalism...UNT has a journalism problem...move along...

To use the NT Daily and other campus journalistic endeavors as a microcosm of free press...there have been quite a few writers and editors who have opposed the AD in general, or the way it is funded, or any number of other issues they had with the way things were run, but the ones who you now see as writers and editors for major papers and magazines (check facts if you like, we have a LOT) used far more reasonable arguments without flat-out showing a complete disregard for their own school, let alone their future as a writer.

Point being, plenty of us have fought against one thing or another that we thought was improper at our school - myself included - but of the journalists who did so, the ones who succeeded in their field weren't just throwing around accusations, they fielded relevant evidence and used reasonable arguments to state their cases. Not to say that I was a journalism major, but I got to know quite a few during my time on campus and there are reasons our campus paper has won a ton of awards during its better years.

If this is the best this guy has to offer, I wouldn't count him among those successes I mentioned in the future. Tabloid press is not well-suited to Denton...perhaps he should enroll somewhere in California if he wants to continue this brand of writing.