DL Depth...we have 8 guys coming into the fold

BIG DAWG · February 8, 2013

I have heard a lot of people talk about a lack of DL depth, but I think those people fail to recognize we have 8 DL coming off RSs...

That also means a full year in the defense, and two offseasons to develop physically. I think we are in MUCH better shape on the d-line.

AND...we are doing it the right way through the HS ranks so that our team wont be in the situation it has been the last several years ever again!

H-towngreen · February 8, 2013

Most of the guys have the size to play D1 ball. Now it's just a matter of seeing if any of the 8 are ready to step up and prove it. I think the fact that we only signed 2 DL in this class speaks to what the staff thinks of these 8......maybe

GOMG2013 · February 8, 2013

It seems to me that the staff is satisfied with the d line even though most posters feel it was a huge problem. I have only watched a few games, but most comments are about pass rush. Was the d line good or decent against the run?

Looking at the moves and recruiting, it also seems like the staff feels the secondary was the issue with the defense. Is this because Mac is supposed to be dline guru, so he cant blame that area? Im just asking.

I have watched a lot of the DB play, and it was not good in my oplnion. Not aggresive at all. They gave up too much cushion. If your corners cant play tighter, no matter how good your d line is, it wont stop a quick 3 step drop or a quick timing pattern. A dline will need 3 to 4 seconds minimum, to get to the qb, or create pressure by blitzing. But blitzing without a good secondary is not good either.

meangreendork · February 8, 2013

From what I remember, the DL did alright against the run. It's just that the weakness at DB showed because the opponent's playcalling didn't respect the DBs at all, meaning that it also pretty much ignored the DL. I also think that if the secondary improves, then the DL will show more effectiveness at the pass rush since the QB will have to take more time to look downfield and may have to scramble out more when there's no one to pass to.

Mean Green 93-98 · February 8, 2013

Like H-Town said, it remains to be seen. McDorman will be out for spring ball. Sir Calvin was not close to ready last fall--I'd be surprised if he's ready to see the field this fall. Most of the others who haven't played yet are wild cards, at best--at least to me. The fact that the staff is not in panic mode about the D-line could be a good sign, or it could be misplaced confidence.

I'm not really all that worried about D-end . . . I think between Sarge, Bellazin, and (hopefully) Quenton Brown, we have 75% of snaps covered, and I feel a little better about the depth behind them. And the numbers are good there. But our roster currently shows 5 total DTs, although I think one or two of the DEs are moving over.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Mean Green 93-98

GrayEagle · February 8, 2013

There are enough bodies, especially at DE, on the defensive line. The main problem is at the tackle position where we lack size. We have three FBS sized tackles...Richard Abbe (Sr), Dylan McDorman (RFr), and Sir Calvin Wallace (RFr). Two more were moved from DE...Ryan Boutwell and Alexander Lincoln. Boutwell now weighs 272 and Lincoln 265; both are still undersized when facing 300 pounders every down. As a result, Boutwell has missed a number of games with injury and Lincoln is less effective. Mustafa Haboul is tough, strong and has a great work ethic but he is 6-0, 241 pounds. I don't know where you play someone that size unless he has good speed. The workout chart shows that Austin Orr (6-4,285) and Dutton Watson (6-3,275) have been moved to DT but it doesn't show on the roster yet. If it's so it is a step in the right direction. Micah Thompson was an acclaimed defensive tackle when recruited but was moved to offense where he sits. He is certainly big enough at 6-4,310. If he had the basic tools in high school then why were they not developed? Where's the coaching?

Defensive end may fare a little better on paper. Although we graduated our most productive player, K C Obi, we replaced him with a rather highly-regarded prospect, Quenton Brown. Aaron Bellazin seemed to improve greatly when given more playing time and should start on the other side. Sarge McCoy has simply gotten too old to be a regular player but he can still be effective in spots. We have three 3* redshirts available this year...Brad Horton, Malik Dilonga, and Jerrian Roberts. Daryl Mason is another who can help as he has gained weight. The potential is there.

Edited February 8, 2013 by GrayEagle

GrandGreen · February 8, 2013

NT has the numbers on the defensive line, the question does it have the quality

A lot of discussion on the dl versus db as the major problem. Obviously one depends on the other, but if you look at the recruiting; it is obvious that that the staff thinks that db is a bigger issue than dl. Both db and dl have numbers, so it has to be a quality issue. I don't think our corners were as bad as many because no one is going to be able to cover forever, and with NT's pass rush that did happen far to often.

Size matters? Not as much as many think at least in football. If a player like Boutwell or Victor Gill, who always got the same comments, plays: he has beaten out a lot of larger players. Toughness and reaction time are both more important than size assuming that the player is strong enough just to not get over powered.

Also remember that NT didn't lose but 2 rotation players in the DL, Cantly and Obi. I think the dl is going to be stronger than last year, but it needs to really upgrade.

DE with only the loss of Obi, who I would rate behind a Bellazen that was really coming on at the end of the year and the McCoy of two years ago. McCoy, Bellazin and Mason return from last years rotation plus the juco Brown should give NT a better DE performance. There is also a good chance that one or more of the redshirt freshmen could challenge them.

At DT only Cantly was lost, returning Boutwell, Abbe, and Lincoln who played a lot last year. Abbe who was starting at the end of the season, and Boutwell who never appeared healthy last year could have much better senior years. Lincoln is getting bigger and has always played a lot. Haboul, McDorman, Wallace, Orr and Watson should all be in the hunt for a rotation sport as well as Moore if he qualifies.

Again, the DL should be improved; but it is going to have to take a giant step to be dominating.

BIG DAWG · February 8, 2013

Sarge McCoy has simply gotten too old to be a regular player

Really???

GrayEagle · February 9, 2013

Really???

Yes, really.

Sarge is starting to slip athletically. He is in far better shape than most of the people his age but they are not playing sports against 21 year old athletes who train almost daily. Sarge will be 28 before this season starts. He can no longer take the pounding of a regular down player. Let's look at what has happened in the last two years:

In 2011 McCoy played in all 12 games; in 2012 he played in 9 games.

In 2011 he had 27 solo tackles and 17 assists for a total of 44 tackles; in 2012 he had 9 solos and 13 assists...a total of 22 tackles. That's a third of the solos and half of the total tackles of the previous year.

In 2011 Sarge had 7.5 tackles for loss and 4.5 sacks; in 2012 he had 3.5 tfls and 1.5 sacks.

That is a significant drop in productivity. Did he suddenly forget how to be productive? No, he simply got a year older. The rest of my quote indicated that although he was no longer an every down player that he could still be effective in situations.

Sarge is likely the oldest college player in the country and, if not, the oldest in the FBS that requires strength and stamina each play. I look on that as a badge of honor and I (especially) understand what the aging process does to the human body. He will still contribute to the best of his ability but I don't think that he's an every down player.

BIG DAWG · February 9, 2013

Yes, really.

Sarge is starting to slip athletically. He is in far better shape than most of the people his age but they are not playing sports against 21 year old athletes who train almost daily. Sarge will be 28 before this season starts. He can no longer take the pounding of a regular down player. Let's look at what has happened in the last two years:

In 2011 McCoy played in all 12 games; in 2012 he played in 9 games.
In 2011 he had 27 solo tackles and 17 assists for a total of 44 tackles; in 2012 he had 9 solos and 13 assists...a total of 22 tackles. That's a third of the solos and half of the total tackles of the previous year.
In 2011 Sarge had 7.5 tackles for loss and 4.5 sacks; in 2012 he had 3.5 tfls and 1.5 sacks.

That is a significant drop in productivity. Did he suddenly forget how to be productive? No, he simply got a year older. The rest of my quote indicated that although he was no longer an every down player that he could still be effective in situations.

Sarge is likely the oldest college player in the country and, if not, the oldest in the FBS that requires strength and stamina each play. I look on that as a badge of honor and I (especially) understand what the aging process does to the human body. He will still contribute to the best of his ability but I don't think that he's an every down player.

Have you ever heard of a league named the NFL? Its this league players play in after they're done playing college football. Even though players are "too old" for college, it is still viewed as the superior league.

Sarge was playing on a bad wheel the majority of the season, which explains his down year statistically. He has had offseason surgery and plans on being back to 100% for the fall.

Edited February 9, 2013 by BIG DAWG

GrayEagle · February 9, 2013

The average age in the NFL is what, 27-28? Now put Sarge seven years beyond that at 35 and you can see that he would be well beyond the norm. He won't have the fitness of the younger players and will be more susceptible to injury.

McCoy went 4-6 years being out of football shape while not playing any organized football. The success that he had is remarkable under those conditions. But again, due to his age he likely won't be able to rehab to his physical condition before his injury. We don't expect younger guys to return from injury at 100% and Sarge won't either.

BIG DAWG · February 9, 2013

The average age in the NFL is what, 27-28? Now put Sarge seven years beyond that at 35 and you can see that he would be well beyond the norm. He won't have the fitness of the younger players and will be more susceptible to injury.

McCoy went 4-6 years being out of football shape while not playing any organized football. The success that he had is remarkable under those conditions. But again, due to his age he likely won't be able to rehab to his physical condition before his injury. We don't expect younger guys to return from injury at 100% and Sarge won't either.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree...I cannot understand your argument at all

Mean Green 93-98 · February 9, 2013

The average age in the NFL is what, 27-28? Now put Sarge seven years beyond that at 35 and you can see that he would be well beyond the norm.

Are you saying that Sarge is 35? That is incorrect, he is 27, and right at the age for an NFL player in his prime.

cl_1_2008 · February 9, 2013

Sarge's productivity dropped because he played the entire season injured, not because he's too old. He's in better shape than anyone on our entire roster, period.

H-towngreen · February 9, 2013

The average age in the NFL is what, 27-28? Now put Sarge seven years beyond that at 35 and you can see that he would be well beyond the norm. He won't have the fitness of the younger players and will be more susceptible to injury.

McCoy went 4-6 years being out of football shape while not playing any organized football. The success that he had is remarkable under those conditions. But again, due to his age he likely won't be able to rehab to his physical condition before his injury. We don't expect younger guys to return from injury at 100% and Sarge won't either.

This may be the worst argument I've seen on this board.

meangreenacct · February 9, 2013

This may be the worst argument I've seen on this board.

You don't read the Skiver/Andrew greatness on the basketball board, do you?

Mean Green 93-98 · February 9, 2013

This may be the worst argument I've seen on this board.

GrayEagle probably provides the most rational, well-thought out posts of anybody on this board (considering his competition, that may not be saying too much). But I think he began his reasoning here with a false premise--if Sarge actually were 35, his age would provide something to think about. But only being 27, I don't see how his age in and of itself could be a problem.

SilverEagle · February 9, 2013

Like H-Town said, it remains to be seen. McDorman will be out for spring ball.

I hope you mean that he will be "out there" for spring ball.

Sir Calvin was not close to ready last fall--I'd be surprised if he's ready to see the field this fall.

Ok, if your assessment is correct, and Sir Calvin needs that much "development/motivation" then we are talking about someone who is never going to noticeably contribute to this program.

Harry · February 9, 2013

McDorman and the defensive end from Rowlett are having shoulder surgery and won't participate in spring ball.

Mean Green 93-98 · February 9, 2013

I hope you mean that he will be "out there" for spring ball.

Nope--I mean out. I believe Coach Mac said he will be having surgery and will be out until fall camp.

Ok, if your assessment is correct, and Sir Calvin needs that much "development/motivation" then we are talking about someone who is never going to noticeably contribute to this program.

That's not my assessment--I haven't seen him play since high school. But Coach Mac spoke about how disappointed he was in him when he showed up. He also later said that he was showing tremendous improvement, so things are going the right direction. But based on where they were, I just wouldn't get my hopes up that he'll be contributing on the field yet. And he's still only going to be a RS freshman....If he applies himself, I don't see any reason why he couldn't contribute on the field for 2-3 years.

H-towngreen · February 9, 2013

You don't read the Skiver/Andrew greatness on the basketball board, do you?

Oh, I do. That was up there with any Skivrew posts.

Green Crazy · February 10, 2013

We are just going to have to agree to disagree...I cannot understand your argument at all

Can anyone?

MeanGreenTexan · February 11, 2013

If anything, I would think Sarge's age would give him an advantage. He's in the prime of his life.

forevereagle · February 11, 2013

If anything, I would think Sarge's age would give him an advantage. He's in the prime of his life.

If Paul Blake can be competitive at 34, surely McCoy can do it at 27.

Mo Green · February 11, 2013

Advertisement for experienced defensive linemen, division 1 experience required, bonus is all expenses paid bowl trip. You efforts will dictate which bowl. Your choice due to your results. Apply to UNT asthletics-Football dept.

(I can not believe what is being said and even brought up about McCoy here! You should kiss his backside because he helped us as a WALK-ON. He was the best we have to this point.If we had better, they would of been out there,get-it!)