2012 still had mainly Dodge's personnel footprint

[Harry]

For the purposes of this analysis - let's use the starting offense and defense for the final UNT game in 2012 against Western Kentucky.

LT 71 Johnson, A. (Dodge)

LG 57 Y'Barbo, Mason (Dodge)

C 60 Fortenberry, A. (walk-on under Dodge)

RG 62 Lemon, Cyril (Mac)

RT 64 Anyiam, LaChris (Dodge)

QB 7 Thompson, Derek (Dodge)

RB 24 Byrd, Brandin (Dodge)

WR 10 Delgado, Ivan (Walk-on under Dodge?)

WR 81 Bynes, Chris (Dodge)

TE 1 Power, Andrew (Mac)

TE 86 Miller, Drew (walk-on under Dodge)

DEFENSE

DE 93 McCoy, Brandon (walk-on Dodge)

DT 96 Cantly, Tevinn (Dodge)

DT 97 Abbe, Richard (Dodge)

DE 48 Obi, K.C. (Dodge)

LB 45 Phillips, J. (Dodge)

LB 35 Orr, Zachary (Dodge)

LB 52 Akunne, Derek (Mac)

CB 23 Whitfield, Zac (Mac)

FS 8 Trice, Marcus (transfer under Mac)

SS 27 Lee, Lairamie (Mac)

CB 6 Jackson, H. (Dodge)

16 were Dodge recruits -- 6 were Mac's.

My point is -- whether you like Mac or not, heading into in year 3 he has not had a majority of HIS recruits yet hit the field. This is 9-2 on offense and 7-4 on defense...

This won't completely change in 2013 because there are still a fair amount of Dodge recruits that will be back. But, they will be the minority.

2013 is a HUGE year for the Mac regime because it's the first year where the majority of the players on the field and in the program will be his recruits.

[UNT90]

So either the cupboard wasn't bear or Mac's 1st two recruiting classes have been terrible?

[UNTLifer]

No. I would hope we wouldn't expect freshmen, RS freshmen and sophomores to fill the majority of starting positions. Any recruit needs the time to adjust to the college game and mature, but I don't expect you to realize that. This year will start to tell us alot about how Mac has done recruiting and developing players.

[Green P1]

So either the cupboard wasn't bear or Mac's 1st two recruiting classes have been terrible?

bingo

[MeanGreenHoops]

No. I would hope we wouldn't expect freshmen, RS freshmen and sophomores to fill the majority of starting positions. Any recruit needs the time to adjust to the college game and mature, but I don't expect you to realize that. This year will start to tell us alot about how Mac has done recruiting and developing players.

If they're not better than the players you had here already then this makes sense, so why aren't the recruits coming in better?

[outoftown]

I think Dodges problem was not primarily recruiting.... it was getting the right things out of the recruits that was the problem.

I am not sure Macs recruits have more talent than Dodges. But Dodges recruits certainly got trained and used to different system and had less time to get adjusted to/devlop under the full Mac system. Also it seems to me we have been redshirting more lately, which should bring advantages down the line, and that line is only starting to come up now.

[emmitt01]

No. I would hope we wouldn't expect freshmen, RS freshmen and sophomores to fill the majority of starting positions. Any recruit needs the time to adjust to the college game and mature, but I don't expect you to realize that. This year will start to tell us alot about how Mac has done recruiting and developing players.

So the cupboard wasn't bare. If Mac's recruits can't beat out a bare cupboard, and we all agree that it is still Dodge's fault we can't win, then this year the new and improved caliber will SURELY take us bowling, right?

[untbowler]

No. I would hope we wouldn't expect freshmen, RS freshmen and sophomores to fill the majority of starting positions. Any recruit needs the time to adjust to the college game and mature, but I don't expect you to realize that. This year will start to tell us alot about how Mac has done recruiting and developing players.

Why everyone has said Dodge had no players and the cupboards were bare so why would not the savior DMac be able to have his own superstar recruits play over such horrible players recruited by Dodge. Come on if Dodge was so bad it makes no sense.

[UNT90]

No. I would hope we wouldn't expect freshmen, RS freshmen and sophomores to fill the majority of starting positions. Any recruit needs the time to adjust to the college game and mature, but I don't expect you to realize that. This year will start to tell us alot about how Mac has done recruiting and developing players.

I would suggest you look at the rosters of this year's bowl teams. RS freshmen and Sophs are starters all over those rosters, but again, we are just a special case.

But not tat special, cause Ybarbo started as a redshirt freshmen and Lemon started as a true freshman. And let's not forget who was our best DB until injury took him away (Warner).

The same folks who are saying Mac needs 4 years will be the sane folks who will say he needs the full 5 if this year is a disaster.

And they will again use Dodge as an excuse.

[UNTLifer]

Twist this around to fit your point of view. The cupboard wasn't bare, it was just full of extremely young players that didn't have a head coach that could develop their talent. The cupboard was bare of upper classmen due to Dodge's hail mary in signing so many JUCO's. I have said from the start that year three should be the start of a turnaround, if Mac is the right coach. I will say that with every head coach that is hired near signing day. And yes, there were many underclassmen playing on bowl teams, but they also played on teams with upperclassmen to provide leadership and played under coaches that best utilized their talents.

I have always believed that it is beneficial to redshirt as many freshmen as possible to allow them to adjust, mature and to provide depth to the program, something we have been sorely lacking in Mac's first two years.

[TIgreen01]

It's just a fact that you'd rather have a 2 deep full of upper classmen. Those players will have had more time to develop mentally and physically. Sure you'll have underclassmen fill needs, but unless the individual is a difference maker that is not the preferred route.

To me, the fact that DMac didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater when he took over the program is the single best thing he's done. Remember that when Dodge came in he put the roster through so much turnover (exemplified by Meager getting benched for a freshman just weeks after throwing for 600 yards) that we had a mutiny and the NAACP show up to investigate racism charges. It was a disaster.

DMac clearly understands how to manage a locker room and build a team. He fosters competition, but you can't start every hotshot freshman who steps on campus or you'll lose your veteran leadership.

[UNT90]

Twist this around to fit your point of view. The cupboard wasn't bare, it was just full of extremely young players that didn't have a head coach that could develop their talent. The cupboard was bare of upper classmen due to Dodge's hail mary in signing so many JUCO's. I have said from the start that year three should be the start of a turnaround, if Mac is the right coach. I will say that with every head coach that is hired near signing day. And yes, there were many underclassmen playing on bowl teams, but they also played on teams with upperclassmen to provide leadership and played under coaches that best utilized their talents.

I have always believed that it is beneficial to redshirt as many freshmen as possible to allow them to adjust, mature and to provide depth to the program, something we have been sorely lacking in Mac's first two years.

So now the argument is that Dodge couldn't develop talent ? I think there were several current NFL players at the recent basketball game that would disagree with you.

It is good to hear you say you expect something this year. It's like we agree. No one is calling for Mac's job right now, but those calls should come with anything less than a 6 win season this year.

I'm sick of losing and sick of excuses.

[GrandGreen]

Simon, Dickey, Dodge and thus far McCarney have one thing in common; none of them has been able to improve recruiting. Sure they all got some great players, but not enough to right the program. Dickey even got one class that primarily was responsible for his run of 4 conference titles, but followed it up by declining class after class.

Recruiting basically reflects success on the field. For example, this years NT class and most of the teams in the NCAA are going to mirror their recent success on the field. This cycle can be broke but it takes a special coach. Look at Tulane for example, they had a worse season than NT but their recruiting has substantially improved in the two year tenure of their HC. My guess is that program is going to get much better.

I had hoped that McCarney with better facilities and overall resources could have got a Tulane like bounce, but he has not. This doesn't mean he can not be successful, but it does mean it is going to take longer if in fact it happens. The problem is that NT or any other school can't wait forever to find out if their current coaching staff can succeed.

[Wag Tag]

It's just a fact that you'd rather have a 2 deep full of upper classmen. Those players will have had more time to develop mentally and physically. Sure you'll have underclassmen fill needs, but unless the individual is a difference maker that is not the preferred route.

To me, the fact that DMac didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater when he took over the program is the single best thing he's done. Remember that when Dodge came in he put the roster through so much turnover (exemplified by Meager getting benched for a freshman just weeks after throwing for 600 yards) that we had a mutiny and the NAACP show up to investigate racism charges. It was a disaster.

DMac clearly understands how to manage a locker room and build a team. He fosters competition, but you can't start every hotshot freshman who steps on campus or you'll lose your veteran leadership.

Example...K State and La Tech !

[MeanGreenHoops]

Wow I hate to say this because it will make a lot of people mad but at the time of the Mac hire I didn't like it and thought it was an over-reaction to the Dodge hire. Dodge was all hype, and Mac was no hype but with a lot of "skins on the wall." I didn't like it because this program needs someone with sizzle to change the type of recruits we are getting. Dodge somewhat did that at the beginning, but he was out of his league with most everything else.

We're not scouts so we don't know, but it appears according to the recruiting services and who players say in the DRC when they are recruited that they had offers from, that we are not winning a lot of battles for a higher level of talent than what was already here. This means no big turn around (which is already proven to be the case). We might gradually become really good and gradually get those players. For that, this year should tell the tale. That's ok too, so I guess we wait.

[UNTLifer]

So now the argument is that Dodge couldn't develop talent ? I think there were several current NFL players at the recent basketball game that would disagree with you.

It is good to hear you say you expect something this year. It's like we agree. No one is calling for Mac's job right now, but those calls should come with anything less than a 6 win season this year.

I'm sick of losing and sick of excuses.

My argument hasn't changed over time, so nothing I've stated is a change in my view. Quite trying to twist things to fit your constantly negative point of view. I'm not all "wine and roses" over our situation, but I do believe I have a realistic point of view about where the program was when Mac came on board and fair expectations of his ability to turn the program around.

Roberson was a DD recruit and Dunbar a TD recruit, both with the ability to start/contribute from the time they set foot on campus. I don't think they fit the mold of most freshmen. Wish they did, but they don't.

[Harry]

Simon, Dickey, Dodge and thus far McCarney have one thing in common; none of them has been able to improve recruiting.

I would respectfully take issue with you on this statement. We won't know how good a recruiter Mac has been until 2013. He has redshirted the vast majority of his signees. He best and most important QB recruit Berglund will not play until 2013. If your statement is basing his improvement on Rivals rankings etc then I would sumbit that since the Rivals and other subscription based sites are built on revenues obtained through BCS programs with histories of tradition and success it doesn't do a good job of measuring programs like North Texas.

I think where Mac is getting questioned has more to do with the expectation that once we addressed facilities higher subscription site ranked recruiting would soon follow. It doesn't work that way. There is a complicated formula that is involved in the process, facilities is an important piece but not the only piece. Winning games, going to bowls, conference affiliation and getting on TV are also big parts. The dollar value (sticker price) of the education is another. Probably the most important piece that we forget here on this site is it takes time for the improvements in facilities and coaching to reach the market...we stay on top of things here but the average person has not seen the stadium or facilities or improved coaching staff or growth on campus. We have made MONUMENTAL strides in the past 5-10 years when you compare against the past 100, but that doesn't change the perception developed over night.

I will say this, Darrell Dickey, Kenny Evans etc would have killed to be in the position we are now, facility wise, conference wise and salary wise etc.. but that was close to 10 years ago... the arms race continues.

[Eagle61]

You are all wrong. It is Bush's fault. So is the basketball program, and the campus parking, and the tuition problem, and the bad food around campus.

[tylermeangreen]

You are all wrong. It is Bush's fault. So is the basketball program, and the campus parking, and the tuition problem, and the bad food around campus.

Hey Kram - finally we have someone who understands.

[GrayEagle]

I am a great proponent of improving our recruiting but I also realize that a program can be turned with no significant change in the quality of players.

Steve Howard's Arkansas State teams labored in mediocrity for a number of years. Never terrible, but a 6-6 season seemed to be their pinnacle. In his first year, and with most of those same players, Hugh Freeze produced a ten-win season. Gus Malzahn was able to improve the talent at stAte but still fashioned his successful season with many of Roberts' recruits.

Other programs that fashioned winning seasons from losing programs recently have been Louisiana, Utah State, Western Kentucky, San Jose State, and Kent State. Sometimes coaching can turn a program around and other times the infusion of a few key players can do the trick.

We did pick up some quality players but not enough. We're still in the Bottom 30 of recruiting polls. We're going to have to get a winning season with what we have and that needs to be done by year three. He and his coaches need to produce and the time is now. Mac is a great guy and I'm hoping that he turns that corner this year and establishes stability here so that he can stay as long as he likes.

[TheColonyEagle]

So the conclusion I've come to is:

Dodge players coached by Mac > Dodge players coached by Dodge

Which shouldn't be a surprise given Dodge's experience vs Mac's.

[MeanGreenTexan]

So the conclusion I've come to is:

Dodge players coached by Mac > Dodge players coached by Dodge

Which shouldn't be a surprise given Dodge's experience vs Mac's.

Wouldn't it be:

Dodge players coached by Mac > Dickey players coached by Dodge?

[UNT90]

My argument hasn't changed over time, so nothing I've stated is a change in my view. Quite trying to twist things to fit your constantly negative point of view. I'm not all "wine and roses" over our situation, but I do believe I have a realistic point of view about where the program was when Mac came on board and fair expectations of his ability to turn the program around.

Roberson was a DD recruit and Dunbar a TD recruit, both with the ability to start/contribute from the time they set foot on campus. I don't think they fit the mold of most freshmen. Wish they did, but they don't.

I would say my point of view is matched by UNT's football success. I'm not twisting anything. We basically agree on a lot of things, with the most important being that improvement needs to happen this year.

If Mac can't recruit better or find a secret to develop the recruits he does have better than Dodge, then we all know what the final outcome will be. The only question, and maybe where we disagree, is how long do we wait to make a decision that will eventually have to be made, if what you say about recruiting is correct .

[GrandGreen]

I would respectfully take issue with you on this statement. We won't know how good a recruiter Mac has been until 2013. He has redshirted the vast majority of his signees. He best and most important QB recruit Berglund will not play until 2013. If your statement is basing his improvement on Rivals rankings etc then I would submit that since the Rivals and other subscription based sites are built on revenues obtained through BCS programs with histories of tradition and success it doesn't do a good job of measuring programs like North Texas.

I think where Mac is getting questioned has more to do with the expectation that once we addressed facilities higher subscription site ranked recruiting would soon follow. It doesn't work that way. There is a complicated formula that is involved in the process, facilities is an important piece but not the only piece. Winning games, going to bowls, conference affiliation and getting on TV are also big parts. The dollar value (sticker price) of the education is another. Probably the most important piece that we forget here on this site is it takes time for the improvements in facilities and coaching to reach the market...we stay on top of things here but the average person has not seen the stadium or facilities or improved coaching staff or growth on campus. We have made MONUMENTAL strides in the past 5-10 years when you compare against the past 100, but that doesn't change the perception developed over night.

I will say this, Darrell Dickey, Kenny Evans etc would have killed to be in the position we are now, facility wise, conference wise and salary wise etc.. but that was close to 10 years ago... the arms race continues.

You know Harry, I have been hearing the same "wait till xxxx for recruits to mature" forever at NT. People poo poo the rating services and praise NT recruits. This is a natural reaction, but frankly NT success and their recruiting ratings track. All those low rated recruiting classes have produced the same kind of teams.

I am not a big fan of the ratings services but I do believe they tend to be right because if you distill their ratings they are basically predicated on what teams are recruiting players. We may all like to think that NT coaches are smarter than others and can get rich on under recruited players, but that is a tough way to grow a program.

The facts are that a new coaching staff often produces some excitement and better recruiting. We saw this from Dodge and Dickey to some extent, that didn't happen with McCarney. Dodge quickly lost that edge because he didn't produce, Dickey actually grew the program till he got to be too good for "the worst coaching job" in America.

I find the argument that McCarney is stockpiling a lot a players by reshirting, baffling. There is no reason in the world other than injuries and the players can't significant help the program to redshirt a player currently at NT. Also the increased emphasis in jucos also supports the thesis that there are not a lot of players waiting in the wings to take the field.

McCarney will get his chance in 2013 and I think it looks promising. My point is that significant progress needs to happen next year. Many think that occurred last year, I don't. Progress to me is not being better than Dodge or Dickey, it is moving the team upward when compared with NT's peers.

Edited January 28, 2013 by GrandGreen

[meangreener]

You know Harry, I have been hearing the same "wait till xxxx for recruits to mature" forever at NT. People poo poo the rating services and praise NT recruits. This is a natural reaction, but frankly NT success and their recruiting ratings track. All those low rated recruiting classes have produced the same kind of teams.

I am not a big fan of the ratings services but I do believe they tend to be right because if you distill their ratings they are basically predicated on what teams are recruiting players. We may all like to think that NT coaches are smarter than others and can get rich on under recruited players, but that is a tough way to grow a program.

The facts are that a new coaching staff often produces some excitement and better recruiting. We saw this from Dodge and Dickey to some extent, that didn't happen with McCarney. Dodge quickly lost that edge because he didn't produce, Dickey actually grew the program till he got to be too good for "the worst coaching job" in America.

I find the argument that McCarney is stockpiling a lot a players by reshirting, baffling. There is no reason in the world other than injuries and the players can't significant help the program to redshirt a player currently at NT. Also the increased emphasis in jucos also supports the thesis that there are not a lot of players waiting in the wings to take the field.

McCarney will get his chance in 2013 and I think it looks promising. My point is that significant progress needs to happen next year. Many think that occurred last year, I don't. Progress to me is not being better than Dodge or Dickey, it is moving the team upward when compared with NT's peers.

I don't think Mac's stockpiling is baffling. I think, as bad as this sounds, Mac was expecting 5-7/4-8 seasons. He's trying to build a system, an idealogy and discipline. I get the feeling that he has a three year plan like a lot do in the NFL and in college, if they get that long. Look at Willie Taggart. Came in, low recruits, but started stockpiling them, hiding them behind redshirts and playing mostly only the old regime's players. Suddenly, his players come in because they've had a year or two to study and really understand his system and bam, WKU is relevant. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Despite our recent uptick in recruiting, Mac is not recruiting stars. Mac is recruiting system players. And I'm okay with that. Because he's now got his QB. If Berglund busts, Mac needs to go. If we go 5-7, Mac needs to go. But Mac obviously wants to bring the pain, ala a smashmouth, ground and pound type team. Well, he's got the running backs, the offensive line and seems to have his wide receivers. He's even got the fullback. He's missing the ground and pound QB. Thompson did NOT fit our scheme. Berglund does. This is why Mac chased Osborn out and was so insistent on McNulty. I'm clearly just going off of his recruiting and what he did at ISU, but this is the vibe I get. I do expect the UNT coming out party next year. If not, Mac is done, in my eyes. Dodge recruited players, in fact, anyone highly rated. They often didn't fit his system though and he threw them to the wolves. Mac is doing the opposite.

Edited January 28, 2013 by meangreener