NY Time OpEd piece on science denial

[GTWT]

Galileo’s achievement was the end of geocentrism, but it was hardly the end of ignorance and magical thinking. When obstinacy places reason under siege, as it does to this day — when fundamentalism defames biological science in the classroom, or the politics of denial prevent action to deal with a changing climate, it helps to recall our debt to a man who set a different example more than 400 years ago. It took just a wooden tube and some polished lenses, a critical and inquisitive mind, and four points of light that didn’t behave the way they were supposed to.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/opinion/galileo-the-starry-messenger.html?_r=1&

Ignorance, especially willful ignorance, does hurt.

[UNT90]

As does willfull arrogance.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---Galileo was finally re- admitted to the Catholic Church about 10-15 years ago... Guess they finally decided he wasn't wrong**.. and the the earth wasn't flat... and that the earth wasn't the center of the universe ( that was their big objection to Galileo... he claimed the Earth revolved around the Sun) the only thing that saved his life was that he was well known... the Inquistion was in full "bloom" so the church killing people who believed other than they did was common..

---A previous Pope had declared the world flat.... based on some Bible passages refering to the four corners of the earth.... spheres don't have corners.. Meanwhile the Greeks and others had even calculated the earth's size mathematically rather well a 1000 or so years earlier...

**too bad they can't give back the lives of all the 1000's of people they killed during the Inquisiton for not believing as they did. ( a lot were Jewish)

Edited January 23, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[UNTFan23]

Climate change is a world wide problem and thus needs world wide solutions. The US could implement all sorts of changes (cultural, technical, etc.) and it won't make much difference if countries like China don't do anything about their pollution.

Edited January 23, 2013 by UNTFan23

[Mean Green 93-98]

**too bad they can't give back the lives of all the 1000's of people they killed during the Inquisiton for not believing as they did. ( a lot were Jewish)

The vast majority were those seeking to reimplement the Bible as the standard of Christian conduct. And it wasn't thousands, it was millions.

[Mean Green 93-98]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/opinion/galileo-the-starry-messenger.html?_r=1&

Galileo would be horrified to see his name being used as a bludgeon against Christianity and the Bible. While he disagreed with the Roman Church's unbiblical position on this issue (and probably many others), he was certainly a Biblical theist, and a devout one at that.

[GTWT]

Galileo would be horrified to see his name being used as a bludgeon against Christianity and the Bible. While he disagreed with the Roman Church's unbiblical position on this issue (and probably many others), he was certainly a Biblical theist, and a devout one at that.

The opinion piece doesn't bludgeon Christianity or the Bible unless, of course, you see ignorance & science denial as synonyms for your religion.

[MeanGreenTexan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/opinion/galileo-the-starry-messenger.html?_r=1&

Ignorance, especially willful ignorance, does hurt.

Curious...Who is ignorant?

[Censored by Laurie]

Curious...Who is ignorant?

Pope Paul V?

[Eagle61]

I came to NTSU as a baptist and left an atheist. My degree is in Chemistry and I don't see how any good scientist can believe in any religion. I have many Christian friends and they know how I feel, but we just don't talk about it. I wonder why they don't ever analyze the things that you have to believe to believe in the bible. I thought then that by the time I was this old (70) most of the nation would be atheist because of the rising education level and that the population would become smarter, but just the opposite has happened. There was a recent article in the DRC about an exchange student from Belguim. She was asked what the most suprising thing she had found about the US; she said how everyone talked about god so much. When I was in high school, we NEVER talked about religion. Some Mormons came by my apt when I was in my first year of grad school and I realized that religion was a hoax. See Julia Sweeney's "Letting go of God" on youtube. It is a similar experience and a very good video, originally on HBO.

[GTWT]

Curious...Who is ignorant?

Those who believe the theory of evolution is not supported by a mass of scientific evidence or that anthropogenic climate change projections are a liberal conspiracy?

Edited January 23, 2013 by GTWT

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

The vast majority were those seeking to reimplement the Bible as the standard of Christian conduct. And it wasn't thousands, it was millions.

-- I did not want to exaggerate any.... 100's of 1000s 's absolutely.. and pretty much most countries along the Mediterranean did it.... as did the Spanish part of the Americas.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html (Jewish source)

---They have had a rough time throughout history... even during the Plague during the 1300's, 1000's were killed ... supposedly one incident 3000 were burned at one time... the idiots thought the plague existed because God was displeased with their existence.. I'm not Jewish but Christian ..... but there are a lot of history in which the actions taken were far from Christian acts.... even in America ...

---Those who want to go back to our Christian roots in America don't know much history.. There was a big reason our informed forefathers put in separation of church and state into our Constitution. Even the Puritans did not come here for freedom of religion exactly.... but the freedom to believe as they wanted ... and then hang those who they thought others were witches if they disagreed. [ check out Salem, Mass. and area ]. There is also a reason that the KKK burned crosses too and not something else... and in the area that later known as the "conservative" Bible Belt.. I don't think going back to those so-called Christian values is where we should go.

Edited January 23, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[oldguystudent]

She was asked what the most suprising thing she had found about the US; she said how everyone talked about god so much.

In a previous life, I taught English to college kids from other countries in San Diego. The most common answer to this same question I got was the abundance of American flags flying everywhere.

Then again, I can absolutely see a difference in overt religiosity between San Diego and North Texas (or East Texas or West Texas).

I've generally stopped speaking to people in daily life beyond necessary retail transactions because of the religion thing.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Those who believe the theory of evolution is not supported by a mass od scientific evidence or that anthropogenic climate change projections are a liberal conspiracy?

Are you the one who once posted about Miller-Urey as the explanation for the foundation of life?

Sir, if you believe Miller-Urey, you have much more faith than I do as a Christian.

Evolution has points that cannot be argued. Evolution has some major holes. - This conversation can go for a long time and get very detailed (I'm sure you know), but we can certainly go there.

As for climate change, the world existed with less than 1 Billion people for a VERY long time. Then, after the industrial revolution, population began growing at an exponential rate, to the point that within 200 years, the population grew by 6 billion! If anyone believes that climate change is not at least somewhat affected by this, they're not thinking straight. And I completely agree with UNTfan23. The U.S. can do our part and invest $millions/billions in solutions, but if the overpopulated countries like China, India, Indonesia do not implement something as well, we're hardly making a dent in the problem. None of them appear to give a flip about climate change.

[mattmartin817]

Climate change is a world wide problem and thus needs world wide solutions. The US could implement all sorts of changes (cultural, technical, etc.) and it won't make much difference if countries like China don't do anything about their pollution.

So we should just do nothing about it since other countries might not do anything about it? Isn't this something we could flex our "global leader" muscles on?

[GTWT]

Are you the one who once posted about Miller-Urey as the explanation for the foundation of life?

Sir, if you believe Miller-Urey, you have much more faith than I do as a Christian.

Evolution has points that cannot be argued. Evolution has some major holes. - This conversation can go for a long time and get very detailed (I'm sure you know), but we can certainly go there.

As for climate change, the world existed with less than 1 Billion people for a VERY long time. Then, after the industrial revolution, population began growing at an exponential rate, to the point that within 200 years, the population grew by 6 billion! If anyone believes that climate change is not at least somewhat affected by this, they're not thinking straight. And I completely agree with UNTfan23. The U.S. can do our part and invest $millions/billions in solutions, but if the overpopulated countries like China, India, Indonesia do not implement something as well, we're hardly making a dent in the problem. None of them appear to give a flip about climate change.

No, I'm not the one who suggested that Miller-Urey explained the origin of life. That work was done in the early 1950s. It's a bit out of date & the newer work is interesting but still very preliminary.

I'll agree that there are still 'holes' in evolutionary theory but I don't know that I'd describe them as 'major'. Science is, by its very nature preliminary. That's true of the theory of evolution.

I totally agree with you concerning the effects of population on climate change. The 7+ billion humans have major implications for climate change (& for nearly every other challenge we face). That isn't an excuse, however, for doing nothing.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

The opinion piece doesn't bludgeon Christianity or the Bible unless, of course, you see ignorance & science denial as synonyms for your religion.

.

Agree... Galileo was not anti-Christian (nor the article) ... he just thought the Church was wrong and crazy to ignor the truth.... Even Martin Luther was not anti-Catholic.... just trying to change the extremely corrupt policies of the Catholic Church at the time (1519?)... paying the Church for indulgencies for example which meant paying money for supposedly forgiveness of sins past or just to commit them... They were awful then.. Even killing or banishing non-Christians was acceptable ( which would never happen in modern times .... really.. see Nazis plus a few I won't mention).

---Throughout history religion including Christianity had claimed science was often wrong... and even unChristian.... It is still true today also... some groups think having a beer is sinful, some even sell it at church fairs... some think contraception is sinful... most don't... some groups accept polygomy ... most don't. Some think women should never cut their hair or women must dress with skirts to their shoes (and absolutely no pants). Don't forget the Amish which seem to think elelctricity is the work of the devil. Until more modern times most of Christianity did not think men should be physicians to women (sinful) .... As MLK once said... the most segregated day of the week was Sunday..... churches did not permit those who were different racially to attend their church (the right one).

---Some people have a very warped view of science... some of science is wrong for a while until disproven... but more often than not... science wins over superstition and strange beliefs... can't take the Bible as absolute ... or at least word for word.... where are the four corners of the earth...?? list them.... or are there any as stated. We would be living in middle age conditions if it weren't for science.... and computer/internet would not exist either and you could not read this "witchcraft" print which involves electricity which some once considered the work of the devil..... people usually give up and say .. science was right after all....then pick another fight.... As one comment that exists states. ... "God works in mysterious ways"... science reveals a lot of them. Religion and science should not fight each other or be in conflict. ... Science isn't the one picking a fight.... various religious groups do.

Strange fact--- Is Sunday the first day of the week or last? ... On American calendars it is the first.... it is the seventh listed in many European countries... but still it is the same day.. I wonder what 7th-Day adventists think of this?... I will never forget a super-religious woman telling me when we went to day-light savings time... that God created time and she didn't think we should mess with it...... huhh... didn't man design the clock and the length of hours and even time zones... crazy.... all measurements are man made by some mathematician or scientist. Don't see any conversion table in Bible on how to measure things or even that we must use base 10 (we do likely because of ten fingers) 43 = 4 double-hand-fulls and 3 more.

Yes I do teach math.

...

Edited January 23, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[MeanGreenTexan]

No, I'm not the one who suggested that Miller-Urey explained the origin of life. That work was done in the early 1950s. It's a bit out of date & the newer work is interesting but still very preliminary.

My apologies.

I'll agree that there are still 'holes' in evolutionary theory but I don't know that I'd describe them as 'major'. Science is, by its very nature preliminary. That's true of the theory of evolution.

I totally agree with you concerning the effects of population on climate change. The 7+ billion humans have major implications for climate change (& for nearly every other challenge we face). That isn't an excuse, however, for doing nothing.

Agreed. Although there are so many differing ideas on what to do.

And MattMartin817 has a good idea, however, I highly doubt China listens to us as we 'flex', and India's relationship with us is tepid at best. Plus, we're currently engaged in military activity that is eating our lunch financially. We cannot end that activity prematurely, but when we do, I hope that we can turn our gazes towards the betterment of society, not just short-term, but long-term as well.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I came to NTSU as a baptist and left an atheist. My degree is in Chemistry and I don't see how any good scientist can believe in any religion. I have many Christian friends and they know how I feel, but we just don't talk about it. I wonder why they don't ever analyze the things that you have to believe to believe in the bible. I thought then that by the time I was this old (70) most of the nation would be atheist because of the rising education level and that the population would become smarter, but just the opposite has happened. There was a recent article in the DRC about an exchange student from Belgium. She was asked what the most surprising thing she had found about the US; she said how everyone talked about god so much. When I was in high school, we NEVER talked about religion. Some Mormons came by my apt when I was in my first year of grad school and I realized that religion was a hoax. See Julia Sweeney's "Letting go of God" on youtube. It is a similar experience and a very good video, originally on HBO.

--- I can easiy understand your view... as a former Baptist... and even went to a Baptist college for a while ( blacks were not allowed to attend there then...even those who attended HS with me in the same town ... real Christian of them ... ) ... but to go as far as an atheist is a bit extreme to me. I do not "buy into" a lot of what some religious groups claim.... but to think this is all one big accident is a bit much for me...

---The crazy thing to me is that more people have been killed in the name of religion than any other reason... even most modern wars it is somehow an issue... Even WWII had one... Nazi were killing those of the Jewish religion (plus others, not widely known maybe because of small numbers ...maybe not told for other reasons) and Japan had suicide pilots believing they they were doing the work of their religion.

Edited January 23, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Christopher Walker]

I came to NTSU as a baptist and left an atheist. My degree is in Chemistry and I don't see how any good scientist can believe in any religion. I have many Christian friends and they know how I feel, but we just don't talk about it. I wonder why they don't ever analyze the things that you have to believe to believe in the bible. I thought then that by the time I was this old (70) most of the nation would be atheist because of the rising education level and that the population would become smarter, but just the opposite has happened. There was a recent article in the DRC about an exchange student from Belguim. She was asked what the most suprising thing she had found about the US; she said how everyone talked about god so much. When I was in high school, we NEVER talked about religion. Some Mormons came by my apt when I was in my first year of grad school and I realized that religion was a hoax. See Julia Sweeney's "Letting go of God" on youtube. It is a similar experience and a very good video, originally on HBO.

Side note: it's been widely reported that those who identify as being Non-Religious are the fastest growing electorate in this country.

[FirefightnRick]

.... the population grew by 6 billion!

I blame this on Playboy Magazine, Cheetos, Tickle Pink Flavored Boone's Farm and the invention and affordability of the in-home air conditioner!

Rick

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I blame this on Playboy Magazine, Cheetos, Tickle Pink Flavored Boone's Farm and the invention and affordability of the in-home air conditioner!

Rick

..

---On this [science/religion ] issue and the post I made showing the US treasury record of debt for the last 200+ years (especially 2001-09 ] .. you make frivolous comments or none.... If you want to be taken seriously.... make meaningful comments and then quote meaningful sourses... not some rumor or claim some radio/TV guru makes with no real facts. .

.

Edited January 23, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[MeanGreenTexan]

..

---On this [science/religion ] issue and the post I made showing the US treasury record of debt for the last 200+ years (especially 2001-09 ] .. you make frivolous comments or none.... If you want to be taken seriously.... make meaningful comments and then quote meaningful sourses... not some rumor or claim some radio/TV guru makes with no real facts. .

.

Chill!

Rick was making a joke.

[Censored by Laurie]

Rick was making a joke.

You sure?

[Mean Green 93-98]

can't take the Bible as absolute ... or at least word for word.... where are the four corners of the earth...?? list them.... or are there any as stated.

Clearly the Bible uses figures of speech . . . the Bible speaks of "escaping by the skin of one's teeth" (Job 19:20), a figure we still commonly use thousands of years later. This is obviously not literal, but a more descriptive and emphatic way of saying one has barely escaped. if we speak of "sunrise" or "sunset," no one blasts us of being scientifically inaccurate, although it certainly would be if we intended it literally. When the Bible speaks of "four corners of the earth," it only does so in two passages that are clearly highly figurative--the point being that, on a map, the furthest places would be at the four corners. Keep in mind that of one of those two passages (Isaiah 11:12), the same book also refers to the "circle," or "globe/sphericity," "of the earth" (Isa. 40:22)--so one of the two was obviously intended figuratively.

So if you mean by your statement that you shouldn't take everything in the Bible literally, I agree with you. But that does not mean that its intended teachings are erroneous.