Question for you guys

[ragpicker]

For some reason church schools and cow colleges have been able to rise above their humble origins more successfully than teachers colleges. Our administrators have tended to be stuffy old pedagogues with no vision and an inability to understand what is going on around them. Our first president with a PHD in an academic field was Dr. Kamerick from Kent State who arrived in the late 60's and did not stay long.I do not believe we even had a real athletic director until Hayden Fry as our athletic programs were being run by the PE Department as if we were a glorified high school. We have allowed successful programs to slide (men and women's golf) and have not taken of advantage of the opportunities that have come our way either athletically and,in many cases, academically. So much of our success in the past has been in spite of ourselves rather than through intelligent planning. But cheer up! I am really enthusiastic about our future. We just have to win.

[MeanGreenWithEnvy]

For some reason church schools and cow colleges have been able to rise above their humble origins more successfully than teachers colleges.

Church schools and cow colleges produce well-connected alums who, occasionally, make a ton of money in professions like business, oil, law (see: SMU), and agriculture (for all the prior three plus ag, see: A&M). Teacher's college predominantly produce teachers and other solidly middle class alums. Teachers don't make a lot of money.

We don't have billionaire angel alums plowing millions of their fortunes back into the academic and athletic programs. There's no UNT version of Joe Jamail. There's no UNT version of T. Boone Pickens. We have had alums who have done well for themselves who have given back to the university in both athletics and academics: look at many of the Geazles, guys like Zeke Martin and Ken Bahnsen.

When you have those outliers among your alums, people like Jamail (UT) and Pickens (OSU) and the Dedman family (SMU) can make a huge difference in moving things along in a positive direction.

[JesseMartin]

We may not have magnates, but we produce a lot of artists. Though many dead horses have already been beaten properly (Roy Orbison, Pat Boone, Don Henley, Peter Weller, etc etc etc), even recently we haven't done a very good job of staying connected to our rising successes. Norah may not have graduated, if she were to donate, it would probably be to the Jazz Studies program. Tell me, on Homecoming weekend in 1999, how many of you caught her amazing performance with the Jazz Singers that included Brandon Rogers and a few other notable UNT Music alums? It was amazing, and I expect that when she looks back on her experience when choosing to donate, it will be to that program specifically, which will help continue our amazing success in the College of Music, with residual (recognition) success following for the rest of UNT.

Now Mike Diaz (Mike Eli Diaz, from Eli Young Band) and his bandmates were pretty well-connected to the rest of the UNT community during their time on campus and are apparently staying involved, so I suspect that they may contribute in a number of ways if their success continues.

My point here is that, although I don't condone kissing the ass of every student who roams our hallowed hallways in hopes that they may someday strike it rich, continuing to promulgate a sense of community with any and every freshman or transfer throughout their time at North Texas will be what brings them back, and whether it is their presence at functions or their contributions to the University (or their specified segment thereof), maintaining a tie with ALL OF US is what will give us the long-awaited, richly-deserved recognition - both athletically and academically - that is needed.

Just as we expect our athletes to also be outstanding students and citizens, so must we also remember that we are an educational institution that makes sports a valid part of our community, which gives us name recognition on a national level, in a vicious but amazing cycle of mutual benefit. Even if we don't cater well to the few super-successes we've spawned in the past, finding a way to instill a love of all things North Texas in every one of our current and future alums will ensure that we don't repeat our failures in that area, while also ensuring a grassroots sensibility that could easily rival many of the "big dogs" of collegiate sports and alumni groups.

What this all boils down to is that our money, popularity, and success problems can easily be fixed by inspiring EVERY class and EVERY generation of North Texas Mean Green to feel like they are a part of something special. Our identity as an "every type of person feels welcome" school should be an advantage rather than a disadvantage. Let's start thinking about that more than what one or two variables in sports (conference affiliation, coaching changes, fights with admin) or donations (find a few viable donors and run with it while ignoring practically everyone else until they have money) could do for us.

We have always been in this together, even if not every one of us realized (or realizes now) that this is the case.

[DeepGreen]

Church schools and cow colleges produce well-connected alums who, occasionally, make a ton of money in professions like business, oil, law (see: SMU), and agriculture (for all the prior three plus ag, see: A&M). Teacher's college predominantly produce teachers and other solidly middle class alums. Teachers don't make a lot of money.

We don't have billionaire angel alums plowing millions of their fortunes back into the academic and athletic programs. There's no UNT version of Joe Jamail. There's no UNT version of T. Boone Pickens. We have had alums who have done well for themselves who have given back to the university in both athletics and academics: look at many of the Geazles, guys like Zeke Martin and Ken Bahnsen.

When you have those outliers among your alums, people like Jamail (UT) and Pickens (OSU) and the Dedman family (SMU) can make a huge difference in moving things along in a positive direction.

And for every alum that have done well and given back to the university in both athletics and academics, there are double that amount that have done really well and not give anything back to the univeristy, particularly athletics. I personally know of five who have done extremely well but could care less about athletics. Big fans during their time here, but our production and stature(or lack of) in athletics over the past 40 years has driven them away.

Edited January 15, 2013 by DeepGreen

[UNT90]

And for every alum that have done well and given back to the university in both athletics and academics, there are double that amount that have done really well and not give anything back to the univeristy, particularly athletics. I personally know of five who have done extremely well but could care less about athletics. Big fans during their time here, but our production and stature(or lack of) in athletics over the past 40 years has driven them away.

Yes, yes, yes.

We have plenty alums with plenty of resources, just not many that give 2 S's about UNT and especially UNT athletics.

You reap what you sow.

Edited January 15, 2013 by UNT90

[aztecskin]

Let's retcon this bia and make up a new origin story. Something involving midi-chlorians.

[Stan R]

On the positive side, the money has sure been flowing in the last couple of years. We're not talking chump change either, multipile million-plus donations to athletics. There are some big money guys but I think they waited to see the administration's plan for development of the program, which prior to RV, was non-existent. Once RV came in an had a workable plan, it took a few years, but eventually people saw it could be done and now they are behind it.

- 3 million for Basketball? check

- baseball possibly on the way? check

- 80 million dollar stadium? check.

these things blow my mind when I consider facilities in the 90's. RV may be make questionable AD staffing decisions, but I would keep him around and pay him 250K per yr. to handle facilities development ALONE. He's like Jerry Jones. Love the facilities, questionable hiring. Not thrilled about promotions or marketing either, but even that is worlds ahead of what it used to be, which was next to nothing.

[wardly]

Since my freshman year of 1961 we have had a total of 20 winning seasons,1 break even year,and 30 with losing records, so forget the thought that we have a history of winning. We don't. We have a history of losing. The problem lays at the feet of Administration. J.C. Mathews refused to support establishment of an athletic alumni association. Jitter Nolan did when Hayden Fry was on board,but was transfering money illegally out of the Foundation Board's resourses to fund athletics and was fired.[i served on this board for 3 years in early 90's] A group of Dallas businessmen[i was one] offered to hire Abner Haynes,[who accepted the offer] to raise money for athletics,but Frank Vandiver[sic?] refused to recognize us so that contributions would be tax deductable so that effort died.Al Hurley had bigger fish to fry,and athletics was not one of them.The last 3 presidents have recognized that a successful athletic program is a window into The University,which gets us to where we are today. The missed opportunities of 70's after Fry's departure continue to haunt us.

[SilverEagle]

Since my freshman year of 1961 we have had a total of 20 winning seasons,1 break even year,and 30 with losing records, so forget the thought that we have a history of winning. We don't. We have a history of losing. The problem lays at the feet of Administration. J.C. Mathews refused to support establishment of an athletic alumni association. Jitter Nolan did when Hayden Fry was on board,but was transfering money illegally out of the Foundation Board's resourses to fund athletics and was fired.[i served on this board for 3 years in early 90's] A group of Dallas businessmen[i was one] offered to hire Abner Haynes,[who accepted the offer] to raise money for athletics,but Frank Vandiver[sic?] refused to recognize us so that contributions would be tax deductable so that effort died.Al Hurley had bigger fish to fry,and athletics was not one of them.The last 3 presidents have recognized that a successful athletic program is a window into The University,which gets us to where we are today. The missed opportunities of 70's after Fry's departure continue to haunt us.

Very interesting, and it ties in to a conversation that I had with the wife of a former team mate of Abner's. I used to work in the same office with the wife of former TCU and Kansas City Chiefs great Sherrill Headrick. Her name is "Mary Dell". "Mary Dell" became acquainted with Abner by attending KC Chief reunions with her husband. She once told me "you know, North Texas ought to hire ol Abner to raise money for your school, because that guy is one hell of a salesman".

[ragpicker]

Good points.UNT is probably above average for a school our size in the number of famous or celebrity alumni we have produced - from Larry Mc Murtry to Meatloaf, (or is it Meatball?). Whatever, I wonder if the administration is really reaching out to them. Perhaps we should begin highlighting them on our half time promotions during televised games as UT did with theirs last football season. We have so much to be proud of, but we have never seemed to beat our own drum as effectively as other schools.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Good points.UNT is probably above average for a school our size in the number of famous or celebrity alumni we have produced - from Larry Mc Murtry to Meatloaf, (or is it Meatball?). Whatever, I wonder if the administration is really reaching out to them. Perhaps we should begin highlighting them on our half time promotions during televised games as UT did with theirs last football season. We have so much to be proud of, but we have never seemed to beat our own drum as effectively as other schools.

Problem with many of them (especially the musicians) is that they simply 'attended' UNT for a while, then left. Many of them don't have a tie to the school.

[UNT90]

Problem with many of them (especially the musicians) is that they simply 'attended' UNT for a while, then left. Many of them don't have a tie to the school.

I don't know. Don Henley did name his band The Eagles...

[Green Dozer]

I don't know. Don Henley did name his band The Eagles...[/quot

I have heard that Don Henley does not like UNT, and the his band is not named after the school. He lives in Dallas in the Bluffview neighborhood. Also Dr. Bataile also began recognizing these artist. As a matter of fact, Roy Oberson's wife was recognized at a game at Fouts while the band played "Hey Baby" as is their tradition in the 4th quarter. I am sure you remember 90.

[JesseMartin]

Since we do produce so many famous exes who attended and did not graduate, it further validates my previous claims that we need to grow connections with every student from the moment they set foot on campus. If they don't graduate because their dreams came true before commencement, so be it! But if we can instill a sense of community and a love of all things North Texas from the word "go", then we will be able to rely on them to be a part of what is going on with us in the future. It's true that we aren't like most other campuses, but the more we embrace that and understand that our unity doesn't come from being a bunch of creepy clones, but rather from our collective experiences, the more success we will have in retaining ties with every one of our fellow North Texans - alumni, student, or otherwise.

[MeanGreenWithEnvy]

And for every alum that have done well and given back to the university in both athletics and academics, there are double that amount that have done really well and not give anything back to the univeristy, particularly athletics. I personally know of five who have done extremely well but could care less about athletics. Big fans during their time here, but our production and stature(or lack of) in athletics over the past 40 years has driven them away.

I know what you mean, DeepGreen. We have a hell of a problem in that we need to convince our alums that things really have turned a corner and that it really is different this time, but it's damn near impossible to do that when we're making slow progress on the gridiron and have fallen apart in what was supposed to be our best year ever in men's basketball.

On a related note, this fetish we have with re-inventing ourselves hasn't helped our cause, either. I've heard some of the development people who are trying to bolster the alumni network from the college level (a brilliant and long-overdue move, in my opinion) talk about how when they meet with older alums, those alums are scratching their heads over who the "Mean Green" are and "what's a Scrappy? Where's Eppy?" We've so schizophrenically tacked this way and that way to try to find a modern identity that we're disconnected from decades of alums who are entering the years of their lives where they have more potential to give back to the university than ever, but are left wondering what university they're giving to.

No easy answers, just lots of hard work.

[MeanGreenWithEnvy]

But if we can instill a sense of community and a love of all things North Texas from the word "go", then we will be able to rely on them to be a part of what is going on with us in the future. It's true that we aren't like most other campuses, but the more we embrace that and understand that our unity doesn't come from being a bunch of creepy clones, but rather from our collective experiences, the more success we will have in retaining ties with every one of our fellow North Texans - alumni, student, or otherwise.

Agree 110%. Surveying the lay of the land, we have the pieces in place now and the mighty Mean Green assembly line is starting to warm up with our current undergrads. Can't say enough good things about what folks like micahgb are doing to build a long-term sustainable Mean Green culture in our student body, a culture that they will carry with them whether they up and leave or stay and graduate. I only wish someone would have had the sense to do this a long time ago and that this someone would have had the institutional support to keep it going through the years.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Don't know where you heard that Henley didn't like UNT because all I've read or heard says different.

Read one article that said when he and his family were in their Dallas home that he still loved to drive up to the UNT campus, take in what he calls "the marvelous bohemian" atmosphere on campus and still looks up former professors of his in the English Department who still live in Denton. In fact, that article said how much Henley credited his UNT English professors in helping with his writing lyrics to many of his and the Eagle's songs and he elaborates on UNT's English Dept. below.

(From the North Texan):

That love of nature and sense of community obligation was cemented during his (Henley's) years at North Texas, where he was an avid English student.

"North Texas had a very, very good English department," he says. "I mean, it was extraordinary, and I really loved it.

"The literature classes I took had a great deal to do with nature and the spiritual or mythical element of nature, and those years were very formative. My professors, including Marsue Johnson, Richard Sale and James Giles, were a big influence."

Also, Henley just a few years ago was a guest speaker at the University North Texas and spoke on one of his favorite subjects, the preservation of Walden Woods up in New England and similar projects he has going at Caddo Lake in East Texas. Henley was born and reared in Linden, Texas.

Don Henley Official Website - Warner Bros Records

www.wbr.com/donhenley/bioreal.html

Don Henley Biography. ... This band eventually morphed into Shiloh which included Jim Ed Norman ... who Henley had met at the University of North Texas while both were students. NOTE: UNT alum & Henley pal, ie, Jim Ed Norman would later become president of Warner Bros. Records

_____________________________________

Roy Orbison has a son who lives here in Weatherford, Texas. I have a a couple of locals who keep saying they will introduce me to him but haven't yet. (I had a class with

'Fessor Floyd Graham in his last year on staff and have a couple of stories he told our class about Roy Orbison and would like to relay those to his son).

_____________________________________

Unrelated, but in the below link the...........College Rankings of Rock (with an interesting ranking for U of North Texas)

http://www.spinner.com/2010/09/08/college-rankings/

Edited January 18, 2013 by PlummMeanGreen

[CurveItAround]

Do you think he would be willing to change the name of his band to The Mean Green?

[UNT90]

Oh yea. That was a complete tongue in cheek post about Henley and the Eagles.

[JesseMartin]

Agree 110%. Surveying the lay of the land, we have the pieces in place now and the mighty Mean Green assembly line is starting to warm up with our current undergrads. Can't say enough good things about what folks like micahgb are doing to build a long-term sustainable Mean Green culture in our student body, a culture that they will carry with them whether they up and leave or stay and graduate. I only wish someone would have had the sense to do this a long time ago and that this someone would have had the institutional support to keep it going through the years.

Quite a few of us, around a decade ago, tried to instill a similar sensibility but aside from the Student Chapter of the Exes/Alumni Association (which I believe began when I was in Grad School), we didn't have the institutional support of which you speak. That's the key; the alums and students want a better sense of culture, but with the exception of a few occasional spikes, the admin and overall institution couldn't care less 1) as long as they keep their jobs and 2) unless they want your money. The more that that support becomes the rule, rather than the exception, the greater our overall success. As much as some members here oppose Rick V., he was really one of the biggest sparks of that positive attitude that I ever saw.

Don't know where you heard that Henley didn't like UNT because all I've read or heard says different.

Here's the problem, as I was told when I was trying to reinvolve famous alums when I was an undergrad. First, Henley (and quite a few others) is fine with North Texas overall, but isn't a fan of what is often termed "the establishment". In addition to some other things, they wanted him to give free concerts. When I asked about having him do a fundraiser for scholarships or something like that, I was flatly refused. The consensus was that if he didn't want to do it for one reason, we shouldn't bother asking him to do it for another. Hmm...free entertainment versus having the ticket sales that exceed the cost of the event going to a good cause, with that amount (the remainder) being a tax write-off for him...Advancement (at least those I spoke to in the late 90s/early 00s) thought that wasn't in the cards just because he said "no" to the free concert for the hell of it.

My point is...with a bit of creativity, a little less arrogance, and a whole lot less "no" when it comes to involving members of our own community, we could achieve a lot more. But when you get emails "accidentally" forwarded to you about "looking a gift horse in the ass" regarding your $1,000 scholarship donation or have a member of the Athletics Department tell you that they don't want money from "people like you" (both of which happened to me when I wanted to GIVE MY FREAKING MONEY TO MY SCHOOL), and numerous similar accounts abound from other alumni and potential donors, I really don't see where you can make any headway in any area, and the increased results lately seem to show a considerable paradigm shift, exemplified by the donations for everything from the stadium to new endowments for scholarships.

Once we get to a REAL fundraising and involvement mentality ("You want to be involved? This may get us attention, a chance to have a fundraiser or just flat-out cash in hand for endowments and facilities? YES!"), we could be pretty damned unstoppable. So whatever weight any of you may have, I urge you to levy that against the naysayers and in support of the new positivity that seems to be creeping into every level of our alma mater. Together, we can do anything...and the more our numbers and support grow, so does the reality of all of our hopes for what we believe North Texas can be!

Need I even say it?...GO MEAN GREEN!