Western Kentucky (12/29/12)

KRAM1 · January 2, 2013

I asked a question. Better results, better leadership or both?

You got an answer.

GangGreen · January 2, 2013

Okay.

I was just trying to get you to clarify so I don't put pieces together here, but you from what I can gather, the lack of donations from alumni has led us to hire sub par leadership. If you can agree, then, that leadership is sub par, will you please remove your **** from their *****, stop blaming 12 guys that can't even buy beer yet and quit blaming the rest of us for not throwing more money into a program that already does not use our contributions responsibly?

You have gone from blaming players, to blaming the only people that keep this thing floating to begin with. Stop. I work in manufacturing and if things are not going well, should I blame the guys on the floor that work to make 40 hours or should I blame my investors or should I figure out a way to responsibly use what I have to give those investors a return on their investment? If I do the latter option, my investors will be more willing to put more into the company.

Pretty simple, isn't it?

Green Mean · January 2, 2013

There is no doubt that there should be a 2 way street here but it is up to the school and athletics department to go even more above and beyond to figure this mess out. That is why they get paid. I am not saying they can be messiahs for everything but if other "mid major" schools can somehow manage to do well in sports and manage good hires in key sports then there isn't a reason we can't do it here at NT. Hell we haven't even been respectable in close to a decade in football. Those early NO Bowl years were nothing compared to what we have now in terms of resources so if people bring up there just isn't enough support and money then I call that complete BS or maybe lack of managing the resources you have because you didn't have a lot of stuff a decade ago that you have now.

Yes things are slowly but surely changing culture wise but I will say again that you have to give students, alums, fans, the casual people etc a reason for them to come to games. If the team stinks people just won't come and the apathy will continue. That is just the way it is and it doesn't matter if you're an alum or not. People these days have other options and yes at the end of the day if you stink you will not be inclined supporting a train wreck every season in practically every sport that people care about. More donations and less apathy will only happen if you win, win consistently and actually make some noise on the national landscape.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Green Mean

GrandGreen · January 2, 2013

How is the lack of donations holding NT back? Yes, more is better but few are complaining because NT is not competitive with high dollar programs. NT has not been competitive in the Belt in football in what 8 years despite having a lot of advantages including budget. MBB has turned to dodo in a year with the most ballyhooed team in history, again nothing to do with dollars.

NT continues to tout state of the art facilities for the program, that was obtained because funds were available not the opposite.

The facts are even donations are a function of the leadership of the program. So how can lack of donations be used to defend those that are responsible for the poor donations level?

untjim1995 · January 2, 2013

Pretty simple, isn't it?
As an aside....it is no where near a train wreck.

I think that soccer, track, golf, volleyball, softball, etc...are all fine sports and all and I hope they always do well at UNT. But they produce nothing but a $$$ drag on the AD. The other three big $$$ sports are supposed to be money makers, especially football and mens basketball. When I look back at the two big programs since 1998, basically the last 15 years, football has won a bowl game, lost three bowl games, and managed to have 3 winning seasons. In just two of the losing seasons, did we manage to only be 2 games under .500. IOW, we have 5 seasons in 15, where we have won 5 games or more. In the same span, we lost 8 or more games in the other 10. Amtrak defines this is as a train wreck of colossal proportions.

In men's hoops, in those 15 years, we saw a team that routinely won under ten games a year under YMCA Trilli, while getting blasted by some OOC competition that we ahd no business playing (Helwig's AD funding mechanisms). We then replaced him with JJ who eventually turned us into a solid program, which did lead to us getting two 15-seed NCAA berths, where we got pounded by double digits each time. Finally, when a UNT coach gets hired away for actually performing well here as a head coach, we hire an unproven assisitant who makes us all vividly remember Trilli-coached teams at UNT all over again, even losing to a D-2 team, all with the best NBA prospect to ever wear a UNT uniform. Amtrak hasn't called this a train wreck yet, since they had to repair the bridge from the Trilli train wreck so many years ago, but they can sense that the rebuilt bridge appears to be ready to crumble down again, causing an epic crash.

UNT90 · January 2, 2013

I think that soccer, track, golf, volleyball, softball, etc...are all fine sports and all and I hope they always do well at UNT. But they produce nothing but a $$$ drag on the AD. The other three big $$$ sports are supposed to be money makers, especially football and mens basketball. When I look back at the two big programs since 1998, basically the last 15 years, football has won a bowl game, lost three bowl games, and managed to have 3 winning seasons. In just two of the losing seasons, did we manage to only be 2 games under .500. IOW, we have 5 seasons in 15, where we have won 5 games or more. In the same span, we lost 8 or more games in the other 10. Amtrak defines this is as a train wreck of colossal proportions.

In men's hoops, in those 15 years, we saw a team that routinely won under ten games a year under YMCA Trilli, while getting blasted by some OOC competition that we ahd no business playing (Helwig's AD funding mechanisms). We then replaced him with JJ who eventually turned us into a solid program, which did lead to us getting two 15-seed NCAA berths, where we got pounded by double digits each time. Finally, when a UNT coach gets hired away for actually performing well here as a head coach, we hire an unproven assisitant who makes us all vividly remember Trilli-coached teams at UNT all over again, even losing to a D-2 team, all with the best NBA prospect to ever wear a UNT uniform. Amtrak hasn't called this a train wreck yet, since they had to repair the bridge from the Trilli train wreck so many years ago, but they can sense that the rebuilt bridge appears to be ready to crumble down again, causing an epic crash.

Wow. When you put the athletic results down on paper, it is scary bad, especially on football.

Taking RV completely out of the equation, would this type of constant losing be tolerated at other programs? Would other universities have tolerated this much losing without making 2, maybe even 3, changes at AD?

Pretty unbelievable looking strictly at the numbers.

KRAM1 · January 2, 2013

OK, I give up here...you guys win...the sky is falling, everyone should be fired, no one should ever give another dime to UNT and there should be no one watching games ever again. Money and support has never helped a program move in a positive direction, so what's the use in giving? There should be no watching parties and no events centered around athletics...cancel all the activities and dis-ban the Mean green Club as it is worthless. Players will come to UNT no matter what the fan base is like and we can recruit coaches on below the market salaries, and build top notch facilities on just what the state provides.

So, until UNT goes to the Rose Bowl and the Final Four, it's time to just back away and let it run its course as soon as UNT wins the Rose Bowl and the NCAA Tourney there will be tons of folks just shelling out $millions and millions to support the program, but no use providing support until then. And, let's make all the support contingent upon where we all like the AD, his staff, the HC in football and in men's BB. Heck, who even needs an AD or support staff or even HC's?...dump 'em all. The experts here can volunteer to run all the programs...oh, sorry, we don't have any volunteers any longer as we have disbanded them all.

Seriously, you guys win...so, keep up the good work. It's no use anyway....folks will always find reasons to not support UNT. No changing that attitude. Have the biggest pity party you want...just count me out. I'll be too busy trying to do what i can....later folks.

Get those -1's going as we all know, don't we. It is interesting that GMG.Com has actually turned into the "grumpy old man board" while our sister board seems to be the more rational these days in many cases. Amazing times these for UNT.

TIgreen01 · January 2, 2013

OK, I give up here...you guys win...the sky is falling, everyone should be fired, no one should ever give another dime to UNT and there should be no one watching games ever again. Money and support has never helped a program move in a positive direction, so what's the use in giving? There should be no watching parties and no events centered around athletics...cancel all the activities and dis-ban the Mean green Club as it is worthless. Players will come to UNT no matter what the fan base is like and we can recruit coaches on below the market salaries, and build top notch facilities on just what the state provides.

So, until UNT goes to the Rose Bowl and the Final Four, it's time to just back away and let it run its course as soon as UNT wins the Rose Bowl and the NCAA Tourney there will be tons of folks just shelling out $millions and millions to support the program, but no use providing support until then. And, let's make all the support contingent upon where we all like the AD, his staff, the HC in football and in men's BB. Heck, who even needs an AD or support staff or even HC's?...dump 'em all. The experts here can volunteer to run all the programs...oh, sorry, we don't have any volunteers any longer as we have disbanded them all.

Seriously, you guys win...so, keep up the good work. It's no use anyway....folks will always find reasons to not support UNT. No changing that attitude. Have the biggest pity party you want...just count me out. I'll be too busy trying to do what i can....later folks.

Get those -1's going as we all know, don't we. It is interesting that GMG.Com has actually turned into the "grumpy old man board" while our sister board seems to be the more rational these days in many cases. Amazing times these for UNT.

Wrong.

1. Donors should keep giving.

2. UNT Leadership should reassign/re-org/fire specifically those leaders who are not getting the job done (the job being winning and increasing donations/attendance amongst other things).

Pretty simple. It is pretty hard to argue that UNT has done a lot of things right, athletically speaking, in the last 15 years. That doesn't mean there have not been any improvements, just that those improvements have not translated to our won/loss records in the big 3 sports.

It will always be hard to convince the masses to invest in something that is not already visibly growing (or winning as it pertains to sports). Big donors can be wooed behind the scenes if they see the right plan and leadership is in place to reasonably expect growth. You're just not going to see the masses shift until we are already obviously doing something right.

Edited January 2, 2013 by TIgreen01

meanrob · January 2, 2013

OK, I give up here...you guys win...the sky is falling, everyone should be fired, no one should ever give another dime to UNT and there should be no one watching games ever again. Money and support has never helped a program move in a positive direction, so what's the use in giving? There should be no watching parties and no events centered around athletics...cancel all the activities and dis-ban the Mean green Club as it is worthless. Players will come to UNT no matter what the fan base is like and we can recruit coaches on below the market salaries, and build top notch facilities on just what the state provides.

So, until UNT goes to the Rose Bowl and the Final Four, it's time to just back away and let it run its course as soon as UNT wins the Rose Bowl and the NCAA Tourney there will be tons of folks just shelling out $millions and millions to support the program, but no use providing support until then. And, let's make all the support contingent upon where we all like the AD, his staff, the HC in football and in men's BB. Heck, who even needs an AD or support staff or even HC's?...dump 'em all. The experts here can volunteer to run all the programs...oh, sorry, we don't have any volunteers any longer as we have disbanded them all.

Seriously, you guys win...so, keep up the good work. It's no use anyway....folks will always find reasons to not support UNT. No changing that attitude. Have the biggest pity party you want...just count me out. I'll be too busy trying to do what i can....later folks.

Get those -1's going as we all know, don't we. It is interesting that GMG.Com has actually turned into the "grumpy old man board" while our sister board seems to be the more rational these days in many cases. Amazing times these for UNT.

All i've ever asked for was to compete at a high level in the Sun Belt in football. We haven't been doing that for a long time now.

And yeah, I could run the MGC. Pretty confident in saying that.

emmitt01 · January 2, 2013

OK, I give up here...you guys win...the sky is falling, everyone should be fired, no one should ever give another dime to UNT and there should be no one watching games ever again. Money and support has never helped a program move in a positive direction, so what's the use in giving? There should be no watching parties and no events centered around athletics...cancel all the activities and dis-ban the Mean green Club as it is worthless. Players will come to UNT no matter what the fan base is like and we can recruit coaches on below the market salaries, and build top notch facilities on just what the state provides.

So, until UNT goes to the Rose Bowl and the Final Four, it's time to just back away and let it run its course as soon as UNT wins the Rose Bowl and the NCAA Tourney there will be tons of folks just shelling out $millions and millions to support the program, but no use providing support until then. And, let's make all the support contingent upon where we all like the AD, his staff, the HC in football and in men's BB. Heck, who even needs an AD or support staff or even HC's?...dump 'em all. The experts here can volunteer to run all the programs...oh, sorry, we don't have any volunteers any longer as we have disbanded them all.

Seriously, you guys win...so, keep up the good work. It's no use anyway....folks will always find reasons to not support UNT. No changing that attitude. Have the biggest pity party you want...just count me out. I'll be too busy trying to do what i can....later folks.

Get those -1's going as we all know, don't we. It is interesting that GMG.Com has actually turned into the "grumpy old man board" while our sister board seems to be the more rational these days in many cases. Amazing times these for UNT.

Here's a tissue. And could you please grab a mop...the stomping from your tantrum has scuffed up the floor.

Deep down you know you deserved that. The hyperbole in your post was simply crying out to be acknowledged...

Edited January 2, 2013 by emmitt01

CMJ · January 2, 2013

I am gonna guess most of the folks complaining on this site are MGC members at some level. I also bet most are gonna keep being MGC members. Maybe some might give MORE if we were winning, but that'd happen anywhere. I would think the fact that most people here do give, even a paltry sum, would allow us to complain. We are the stock holders after all.

Edited January 3, 2013 by CMJ

untjim1995 · January 2, 2013

OK, I give up here...you guys win...the sky is falling, everyone should be fired, no one should ever give another dime to UNT and there should be no one watching games ever again. Money and support has never helped a program move in a positive direction, so what's the use in giving? There should be no watching parties and no events centered around athletics...cancel all the activities and dis-ban the Mean green Club as it is worthless. Players will come to UNT no matter what the fan base is like and we can recruit coaches on below the market salaries, and build top notch facilities on just what the state provides.

So, until UNT goes to the Rose Bowl and the Final Four, it's time to just back away and let it run its course as soon as UNT wins the Rose Bowl and the NCAA Tourney there will be tons of folks just shelling out $millions and millions to support the program, but no use providing support until then. And, let's make all the support contingent upon where we all like the AD, his staff, the HC in football and in men's BB. Heck, who even needs an AD or support staff or even HC's?...dump 'em all. The experts here can volunteer to run all the programs...oh, sorry, we don't have any volunteers any longer as we have disbanded them all.

Seriously, you guys win...so, keep up the good work. It's no use anyway....folks will always find reasons to not support UNT. No changing that attitude. Have the biggest pity party you want...just count me out. I'll be too busy trying to do what i can....later folks.

Get those -1's going as we all know, don't we. It is interesting that GMG.Com has actually turned into the "grumpy old man board" while our sister board seems to be the more rational these days in many cases. Amazing times these for UNT.

What we are saying is that this ain't the rosy picture you are painting around here, either. It ain't Trilli and Dodge levels, but McCarney and Benford aren't exactly making us feel a ton better. I am on record as saying that I'm a big Coach Mac fan and believe, like you, that he will turn it around this year, too. But, the fact remains that the $$$ sports at UNT are performing at a below acceptable level right now. The AD should have to answer for this. No one I have ever met nor any sane poster I have read on this forum believes we should be going to the Rose Bowl or to the Final Four ever. But we do expect that we SHOULD be able to compete with other SBC/CUSA schools in football and basketball. We SHOULD expect to have teams that compete for conference championships. I don't expect us to be close when we play at LSU, Alabama, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, etc...in football. Similarly, I don't expect us to beat a Kansas-type team in basketball anytime soon, either. But to have the AD schedule the only home OOC game in football against Texas Southern and then struggle against them is not acceptable. Losing to a d-2 team in basketball is unacceptable, especially when you have your most talented team in school history. That is the point that is being made here, especially in light of the reality that our basketball program has sucked big time under this unproven coach.

Donations and attendance are mandatory for any school to compete--there is no doubt. But getting on a school's internet forum and ALWAYS pumping sunshine is not any wiser than our resident internet idiot, GL2GreatnessCheckFacts, coming on here to run down everything about UNT. Every single Athletic Dept in America is dependent on donations and attendance, just as they are subject to criticism or complaints when those donors/butts-in-seats aren't satisifed with the products being shown on the field/court. Here at UNT, when you really look back at it, we have had two good years in football and two good years in basketball in the last 15 years. Our 2002 team won the NO Bowl over Cincy, and our 2003 team beat Baylor in OOC and lost to Memphis in that NO Bowl in a tough battle. The other bowl teams were not really that great, they just ran the table of a weak conference of fledgling programs only to get manhandled in those bowl games. In hoops, the 2007 basketball team caught fire at the end of the year and gave Memphis a game for about 3/4 of the game until they finished us off with a pretty good run. In 2010, we got wood-shedded by a great K-State team that we did not match up with at all, size-wise. I review this all because its totally understandable why the actual few people that do care about our teams would need to vent about the "progress" they've witnessed lately. The difference is that the other schools in our area of the country that have been playing FBS football and Division I hoops together for the last 15 years will never let their programs get as low as we have, but that's because they all have money and administrative support for their teams. We have never had the latter until getting some recently, and we have never had the former, so watching the AD make poor hires exacerbates the problem greatly. Because those fans that do care enough to come out and watch and donate to the program know full well that a bad hire in a $$$ sport not only cannot be fixed soon, in reality it just crushes the entire department for years to come. The alums we work with at those other schools just don't understand how different things operate in Denton. And I'm not talking about the Big XII/SEC alums. SMU, Rice, Tulane, and Tulsa all have lots of $$$ we will never have. UH and UTEP have administrations that won't tolerate losing or poor hires, in part because they have decent attendance in their big sports. We don't have either of those, which is why a poor hire--and that is what Benford is until he proves otherwise at this point--it causes us all to realize that we are just gonna have to bite down hard and deal with it, because we cannot afford to make a change that these other places would be able to do. So naturally, Vic Trilli and Todd Dodge get to coach an extra year or two beyond what any of these other places would allow.

Edited January 2, 2013 by untjim1995

KRAM1 · January 3, 2013

Here's a tissue. And could you please grab a mop...the stomping from your tantrum has scuffed up the floor.
Deep down you know you deserved that. The hyperbole in your post was simply crying out to be acknowledged...

Sure sweetie, you bring the cookies and I'll bring the mop...don't know how much good a mop will do on scuffed floors, but what ever you say. I like snicker doodles....

KRAM1 · January 3, 2013

What we are saying is that this ain't the rosy picture you are painting around here, either. It ain't Trilli and Dodge levels, but McCarney and Benford aren't exactly making us feel a ton better. I am on record as saying that I'm a big Coach Mac fan and believe, like you, that he will turn it around this year, too. But, the fact remains that the $$$ sports at UNT are performing at a below acceptable level right now. The AD should have to answer for this. No one I have ever met nor any sane poster I have read on this forum believes we should be going to the Rose Bowl or to the Final Four ever. But we do expect that we SHOULD be able to compete with other SBC/CUSA schools in football and basketball. We SHOULD expect to have teams that compete for conference championships. I don't expect us to be close when we play at LSU, Alabama, Oklahoma, Texas, Georgia, etc...in football. Similarly, I don't expect us to beat a Kansas-type team in basketball anytime soon, either. But to have the AD schedule the only home OOC game in football against Texas Southern and then struggle against them is not acceptable. Losing to a d-2 team in basketball is unacceptable, especially when you have your most talented team in school history. That is the point that is being made here, especially in light of the reality that our basketball program has sucked big time under this unproven coach.

Donations and attendance are mandatory for any school to compete--there is no doubt. But getting on a school's internet forum and ALWAYS pumping sunshine is not any wiser than our resident internet idiot, GL2GreatnessCheckFacts, coming on here to run down everything about UNT. Every single Athletic Dept in America is dependent on donations and attendance, just as they are subject to criticism or complaints when those donors/butts-in-seats aren't satisifed with the products being shown on the field/court. Here at UNT, when you really look back at it, we have had two good years in football and two good years in basketball in the last 15 years. Our 2002 team won the NO Bowl over Cincy, and our 2003 team beat Baylor in OOC and lost to Memphis in that NO Bowl in a tough battle. The other bowl teams were not really that great, they just ran the table of a weak conference of fledgling programs only to get manhandled in those bowl games. In hoops, the 2007 basketball team caught fire at the end of the year and gave Memphis a game for about 3/4 of the game until they finished us off with a pretty good run. In 2010, we got wood-shedded by a great K-State team that we did not match up with at all, size-wise. I review this all because its totally understandable why the actual few people that do care about our teams would need to vent about the "progress" they've witnessed lately. The difference is that the other schools in our area of the country that have been playing FBS football and Division I hoops together for the last 15 years will never let their programs get as low as we have, but that's because they all have money and administrative support for their teams. We have never had the latter until getting some recently, and we have never had the former, so watching the AD make poor hires exacerbates the problem greatly. Because those fans that do care enough to come out and watch and donate to the program know full well that a bad hire in a $$$ sport not only cannot be fixed soon, in reality it just crushes the entire department for years to come. The alums we work with at those other schools just don't understand how different things operate in Denton. And I'm not talking about the Big XII/SEC alums. SMU, Rice, Tulane, and Tulsa all have lots of $$$ we will never have. UH and UTEP have administrations that won't tolerate losing or poor hires, in part because they have decent attendance in their big sports. We don't have either of those, which is why a poor hire--and that is what Benford is until he proves otherwise at this point--it causes us all to realize that we are just gonna have to bite down hard and deal with it, because we cannot afford to make a change that these other places would be able to do. So naturally, Vic Trilli and Todd Dodge get to coach an extra year or two beyond what any of these other places would allow.

Sure, you win...already said you guys win....what more do you want? I am done, the sky is falling folks win....no sense talking about it any longer.

meanrob · January 3, 2013

We still need a quarterback.

(I'm through with the donor/money issue but I'm not stopping commenting on the QB situation until it's rectified. No matter how long it takes.)

Edited January 3, 2013 by meanrob

MeanMag · January 3, 2013

Sure, you win...already said you guys win....what more do you want? I am done, the sky is falling folks win....no sense talking about it any longer.

Smug.

UNT90 · January 3, 2013

Sure, you win...already said you guys win....what more do you want? I am done, the sky is falling folks win....no sense talking about it any longer.

Actually, if the sky is falling, and the sky is already at ground level in basketball, it is worth talking about, and talking about it publicly, until something is done about it.