UNT Running out of time

Harry · December 17, 2012

After taking a short one-day vacation with the better half, I ventured back to town and the Super Pit to cover the UNT-Southeastern Louisiana game today.

We are way past style-pointing wins at UNT like fans did at times the last couple of years, but yikes.

UNT darn near lost to a 1-6 Southland team.

If UNT had, things really would have gone south.

Tony Mitchell went 1-for-9 and never seemed to be into one of his sweet spots in the halfcourt, Jacob Holmen went 1-for-6, Chris Jones scored one points and UNT went 0-for-11 from 3.

read more: http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/2012/12/unt-southeastern-louisiana-thoughts.html/

Green P1 · December 17, 2012

The more practice time Benford gets between losses the worse we look. Am I the only one that see's that?

Stan R · December 17, 2012

The more practice time Benford gets between losses the worse we look. Am I the only one that see's that?

Bro. We all see it, but of course you knew that, you're just trying to find consolation by preaching to the increasingly agitated choir. So what is your realistic view on what should be done here? Not the comedic version, the semi-serious one. It ain't fire Benford tomorrow, or probably even at the end of the season.

Let me ask my question this way. Let's say we could put this same situation on WKU's head. What would they do? They are in my view the gold standard of what UNT basketball needs to be. Facilities, consistently great fan support, high expectations every year.

Now what if by some freak occurrence, they hired a complete disaster of a coach along the lines of Benford. They also hired him into a 5 year contract or something along those lines. Do you take the financial hit and put the guy to the curb at the end of one season and admit complete, embarrassing failure as a program?

TIgreen01 · December 17, 2012

Bro. We all see it, but of course you knew that, you're just trying to find consolation by preaching to the increasingly agitated choir. So what is your realistic view on what should be done here? Not the comedic version, the semi-serious one. It ain't fire Benford tomorrow, or probably even at the end of the season.

Let me ask my question this way. Let's say we could put this same situation on WKU's head. What would they do? They are in my view the gold standard of what UNT basketball needs to be. Facilities, consistently great fan support, high expectations every year.

Now what if by some freak occurrence, they hired a complete disaster of a coach along the lines of Benford. They also hired him into a 5 year contract or something along those lines. Do you take the financial hit and put the guy to the curb at the end of one season and admit complete, embarrassing failure as a program?

How do you sell your fanbase on tickets/donations if you don't?

kalebschumann · December 17, 2012

Bro. We all see it, but of course you knew that, you're just trying to find consolation by preaching to the increasingly agitated choir. So what is your realistic view on what should be done here? Not the comedic version, the semi-serious one. It ain't fire Benford tomorrow, or probably even at the end of the season.

Let me ask my question this way. Let's say we could put this same situation on WKU's head. What would they do? They are in my view the gold standard of what UNT basketball needs to be. Facilities, consistently great fan support, high expectations every year.

Now what if by some freak occurrence, they hired a complete disaster of a coach along the lines of Benford. They also hired him into a 5 year contract or something along those lines. Do you take the financial hit and put the guy to the curb at the end of one season and admit complete, embarrassing failure as a program?

If you're serious about your basketball program, then you need to.

If you don't want to lose all of your clout that NT basketball has gained over the past decade or so, then you need to.

If you don't want to piss off your fan base any more than you already have, then you need yto.

Stan R · December 17, 2012

How do you sell your fanbase on tickets/donations if you don't?

So are you saying that RIGHT NOW given our current record that is the correct decision? I don't think so, not yet. You have to let this play out to its bitter end. Is there a record at the end of this year that would make you change your mind?

Quoner · December 17, 2012

If only we had a recent example of WKU firing a basketball coach who wasn't working and finding immediate gains.

kalebschumann · December 17, 2012

So are you saying that RIGHT NOW given our current record that is the correct decision? I don't think so, not yet. You have to let this play out to its bitter end. Is there a record at the end of this year that would make you change your mind?

Cutting down some nets on March 11th would be a good start.

Green P1 · December 17, 2012

Now what if by some freak occurrence, they hired a complete disaster of a coach along the lines of Benford.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Green P1

Stan R · December 17, 2012

Ok, so maybe I should have read up on this, and to be up on all of the news and whatnot :

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7431968/western-kentucky-hilltoppers-fire-ken-mcdonald

So this is a case of a 3rd year coach being fired halfway through the 4th season. Apples and oranges? Are we advocating firing a 1st year coach halfway through his 1st year?

UNT90 · December 17, 2012

So are you saying that RIGHT NOW given our current record that is the correct decision? I don't think so, not yet. You have to let this play out to its bitter end. Is there a record at the end of this year that would make you change your mind? </blockquote>

IF this thing finishes under 15 wins, with a one and out in the conference tournament, that would be the time to make the change.If we are really serious about maintaining the momentum of the basketball program, that is.

The reason you see the type of posts that P1 made is because many of us can see where this is headed. I pray to God we are wrong, but nothing on the court, or the coaching sideline, gives us any reason to think otherwise.

Stan R · December 17, 2012

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Stan R" data-cid="696146" data-time="1355760181">
 
So are you saying that RIGHT NOW given our current record that is the correct decision? I don't think so, not yet. You have to let this play out to its bitter end. Is there a record at the end of this year that would make you change your mind? </blockquote>
IF this thing finishes under 15 wins, with a one and out in the conference tournament, that would be the time to make the change.If we are really serious about maintaining the momentum of the basketball program, that is.
The reason you see the type of posts that P1 made is because many of us can see where this is headed. I pray to God we are wrong, but nothing on the court, or the coaching sideline, gives us any reason to think otherwise.

So one season huh. I'll ask my question again. Has this ever happened in the history of college basketball? Do we want that kind of notoriety? That may prove more harmful than sticking it out for a gut wrenching two-to three seasons (where's my projectile barf icon?) of this. Hey I want him out here as much as the next guy based on all of the evidence. Practicality and economics is another thing.

I get people will say "well then just kiss yer fans guhd bye and stuff". Well yes I get it, it will be ugly, but guess what, this is the situation we have put ourselves in (our AD has put us in more accurately, although everyone seemed to be golf clapping this in just the same way we did for Todd Dodge). We have to end this in a non-catastrophic* way.

*By somehow saving face for our program, no matter how far fetched that sounds right now.

Mean Green 93-98 · December 17, 2012

So one season huh. I'll ask my question again. Has this ever happened in the history of college basketball? Do we want that kind of notoriety? That may prove more harmful than sticking it out for a gut wrenching two-to three seasons (where's my projectile barf icon?) of this. Hey I want him out here as much as the next guy based on all of the evidence. Practicality and economics is another thing.

I get people will say "well then just kiss yer fans guhd bye and stuff". Well yes I get it, it will be ugly, but guess what, this is the situation we have put ourselves in (our AD has put us in more accurately, although everyone seemed to be golf clapping this in just the same way we did for Todd Dodge). We have to end this in a non-catastrophic* way.

*By somehow saving face for our program, no matter how far fetched that sounds right now.

Southern Miss just fired their football coach after one season.

And had a pretty wide choice of replacements.

Edited December 17, 2012 by Mean Green 93-98

letsgiveacheer · December 17, 2012

We all know he isn't going anyplace, at least in the near term. And if UNT was running out of time, it would have done so along time ago. Instead, we are all here, waiting to see what happens next!

UNT90 · December 17, 2012

So one season huh. I'll ask my question again. Has this ever happened in the history of college basketball? Do we want that kind of notoriety? That may prove more harmful than sticking it out for a gut wrenching two-to three seasons (where's my projectile barf icon?) of this. Hey I want him out here as much as the next guy based on all of the evidence. Practicality and economics is another thing.

I get people will say "well then just kiss yer fans guhd bye and stuff". Well yes I get it, it will be ugly, but guess what, this is the situation we have put ourselves in (our AD has put us in more accurately, although everyone seemed to be golf clapping this in just the same way we did for Todd Dodge). We have to end this in a non-catastrophic* way.

*By somehow saving face for our program, no matter how far fetched that sounds right now. </blockquote>

Many of us were concerned that this coach had no head coaching experience. We stated so at the time. We were excited because he was a proven recruiter and HOPED he could coach.

This team is an exception to many coaching hire rules. This team is built to win THIS YEAR. Failure to do so let's you know immediately that you have a coaching problem. I see no problem with a one and done if we win around 12 games. And recruits, donors, students, etc. will be thankful that you acknowledged a problem and fixed if.

The whole thought process that you can't make a change because it would be embarrassing to the AD is ridiculous. If anyone in the AD thinks this way, they should be fired immediately. This isn't about their personal ego, it's about doing what's best to put a winning product on the floor.

Now, whether of not we can afford to fire a 1 year head coach is a whole other topic.

MeanGreenTexan · December 17, 2012

Seems a few people don't have a proper understanding of what we currently have on our roster, and proper expectations for that assembly of players.

As a matter of fact, a few people seem to BLAME the players. The same players that were within a few minutes of the SBC championship last year. A year older/better.

I'm betting if someone were to cut the check on RV's desk today, Benford would be gone, despite all of these odd straw-man arguments about a negative image around firing coaches after 1 year. With this roster of players, the Mean Green should be competing with the top teams we're going up against. We should be blowing out SELA by at least 20.

Although I was somewhat on board with Forrest back when JJ first left, I liked the Benford hire better than Forrest... Now, I wonder what this team would be doing under coach Forrest.

kalebschumann · December 17, 2012

Seems a few people don't have a proper understanding of what we currently have on our roster, and proper expectations for that assembly of players.As a matter of fact, a few people seem to BLAME the players. The same players that were within a few minutes of the SBC championship last year. A year older/better.I'm betting if someone were to cut the check on RV's desk today, Benford would be gone, despite all of these odd straw-man arguments about a negative image around firing coaches after 1 year. With this roster of players, the Mean Green should be competing with the top teams we're going up against. We should be blowing out SELA by at least 20.Although I was somewhat on board with Forrest back when JJ first left, I liked the Benford hire better than Forrest... Now, I wonder what this team would be doing under coach Forrest.

I completely agree. I have little doubt that RV is the only person unaware that the Benford needs to end and end fast! .... I would cut the check.. But I only make a middle school band director's salary. I mean, maybe if it was a high school band director's salary I'd be cutting the check.

curtisdaa · December 17, 2012

I have always bought UNT basketball tickets because I enjoyed going to the games. It was worth the crappy traffic from Dallas to Denton on a Thursday night. Win or lose, I left with the feeling that I received a good return for my money. It was the rule and not the exception that the team was well prepared and played hard.

Based on what I have seen this year, this week will probably be the last Thursday I make that drive. I truly hope that Benford and our guys turn it around this year. If not, there will be at least two less season tickets sold next year.

Greendylan · December 17, 2012

If economic realities are really all that's preventing an immediate decision (or perhaps what will delay a change for the next few years), then maybe we need to consider the long term financial consequences of a failed season (or two or three or four). If average attendance drops precipitously for a season or maybe even for several seasons in a row and we miss out on NCAA tournament money, then can we afford NOT to make an immediate change?

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to see a few games when I'm in town this winter, but I think interest is already waning among many other alumni.

UNT90 · December 17, 2012

If economic realities are really all that's preventing an immediate decision (or perhaps what will delay a change for the next few years), then maybe we need to consider the long term financial consequences of a failed season (or two or three or four). If average attendance drops precipitously for a season or maybe even for several seasons in a row and we miss out on NCAA tournament money, then can we afford NOT to make an immediate change?

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to see a few games when I'm in town this winter, but I think interest is already waning among many other alumni.

Edited December 17, 2012 by UNT90

TIgreen01 · December 17, 2012

So are you saying that RIGHT NOW given our current record that is the correct decision? I don't think so, not yet. You have to let this play out to its bitter end. Is there a record at the end of this year that would make you change your mind? </blockquote>

Your original post asked about what to do at the end of the year. I answered based on the assumption that we finish under .500 (which we currently are). I think finishing with a losing record with this collection of talent is unacceptable. Benford was dealt no easy hand losing our only legit outside threat to start the season, but sh1t happens and this team should be better than they currently are.

foutsrouts · December 17, 2012

If economic realities are really all that's preventing an immediate decision (or perhaps what will delay a change for the next few years), then maybe we need to consider the long term financial consequences of a failed season (or two or three or four). If average attendance drops precipitously for a season or maybe even for several seasons in a row and we miss out on NCAA tournament money, then can we afford NOT to make an immediate change?

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to see a few games when I'm in town this winter, but I think interest is already waning among many other alumni.

Agreed. There has got to be a point where enough is enough. The 20th game with zero progress would be enough for me.

dahbeed · December 18, 2012

If only we had a recent example of WKU firing a basketball coach who wasn't working and finding immediate gains.

Manzanzas y naranjas amigo.

The first year of McDummy we had OMV coming back as a senior. All conference AJ Slaughter and future NBA pick Jeremy Evans returning. McDummy was laissez-affaire enough in his everyday approach that he let OMV bark orders and run that team. I'm still amazed at the sack OMV drug with him.

I started worrying in year 2 when nobody on Western could keep anybody in front of them and McDummy didn't seem concerned. I was the first person on haven to question him not recruiting shooters......the bread and butter of mid-majors. The next year was even worse when he had 3 all conference types in Pettigrew, Pattilo, and Kerusch. Kevin Durant's half brother Cliff Dixon coming off the bench. Pattilo and Dixon had a major fist-fight in the locker room early in the season. It went downhill from there.

There was an uproar on haven that year. We all wanted him fired but the administration backed him with McReset. Last year the final straw was not the 6 on 5 loss to ulala. It was only around 2k attendance when they were selling 1$ tickets at the local convenience stores.

During most of this time we knew the dummy was in over his head.

You guys are feeling it halfway through your first year with yours. My heart goes out to your hoops fans.

In my gut....you'll have it turned around when you play us

GrandGreen · December 18, 2012

Seems a few people don't have a proper understanding of what we currently have on our roster, and proper expectations for that assembly of players.
As a matter of fact, a few people seem to BLAME the players. The same players that were within a few minutes of the SBC championship last year. A year older/better.
I'm betting if someone were to cut the check on RV's desk today, Benford would be gone, despite all of these odd straw-man arguments about a negative image around firing coaches after 1 year. With this roster of players, the Mean Green should be competing with the top teams we're going up against. We should be blowing out SELA by at least 20.
Although I was somewhat on board with Forrest back when JJ first left, I liked the Benford hire better than Forrest... Now, I wonder what this team would be doing under coach Forrest.

Forrest would be the last guy NT needs. Isn't Benford an example of why you better be very careful with hiring coaches that have earned their money recruiting, not coaching.

Obviously, the casual fan doesn't know what is going on, but it looks like Benford has lost this team. I still have a little hope but it is dwindling fast.

NT is on the verge of losing all that BB gained under Jones, I am not sure when the cutoff point is, but buying out a coach with a 5 year contract is very expensive and probably would be the end of RV also, I don't expect NT to do anything but the MBB program unless a miraculous turnaround could easily be at the bottom of the Belt and than CUSA with little hope of improvement.

Edited December 18, 2012 by GrandGreen