Full Story on Jimmerson / Warner

[Eastwood Eagle]

It really sort of chaps me though when people excuse this behavior as a "mistake". It's not a mistake. If you steal, sell weed, or whatever, you intended to do it. A mistake implies that there was no intent. .

lol wut?

I don't think anyone is arguing that they mistakingly took the swag. We mean it was a mistake in the sense that it was a lapse in judgment.

You can intend to do something (steal) and it still be a mistake.

These two kids need to learn from this mistake (or intentional act from a lapse of judgment) and move on. There are ways they can learn from this mistake besides yanking a scholarship and kicking them off the team.

Hope the best for them.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

[North Texas Shep]

Wonder if he got free hamburgers as a perk for working there? I miss Whataburger !

I do not miss Jack n the Box however.

About 3am last night I went to Whataburger. Sadly, they were way to busy and I went to Jack n Box, which was not busy at all... This morning I regretted not waiting at Whataburger.

Oh and the guys made a mistake. I think they should miss a couple of games and learn their lesson.

[emmitt01]

Kick them off the team. Period.

Right now, playing football and representing UNT is their job. I would be fired from my job if I did this, and so would many of you.

They knew what they were doing was wrong if they stuffing merchandise into a backpack.

You'd be fired from your job? Please tell me, where do you work that they do random criminal history checks? They don't even do that at MY job. Misdemeanor B theft, unless you have no means, generally results in posting bail long before you have to be back at your 8am job the next day. Hyperbole is fun...but it's not your friend.

And to the person who said "once a thief, always a thief" I'm amused. I went to jail as a 16 year old for stealing comic books. Have never stolen a thing since. Told DPD all about it on the job application. Yet, somehow, they trusted me with thousands of dollars and drugs for 3 1/2 years. They trust me to incarcerate people. And my word sends people to state and federal prison. Not bad for a lifetime thief, huh?

Take away their scholarship you say? Brilliant! Let's remove them from a team environment, one where they can be encouraged (and shamed) when they screw up. Let's take away that peer support group. If we're lucky this football scholarship is the only way they were able to pay for college. Let's strip that away and discard them while we hope for the best. Ooooor, we could put them on notice that their lifelines have now been exhausted. Let them understand that while we are there for them, punishment is forthcoming in a heavy dose if they step out of line again. Kinda like this crazy concept called probation that is meted out each and every day in courtrooms.

But Emmitt, they represent me and my university!!! I pay for their scholarship! I'm sure they'd gladly give you back the 100th (if that) of their tuition that you actually pay personally. And they represent my university too. When I went to that university I saw thousands of young men and women finding their bearings and making multiple mistakes. I think we called it growth back in the olden days.

And before anyone says I'm excusing their behavior, tap the brakes. I believe more than just about anyone in punishing crime. But I also understand that the purpose of punishment is not just to be punitive, but also to be corrective. I have no doubt that Mac will find that balance.

[risinggreen]

You'd be fired from your job? Please tell me, where do you work that they do random criminal history checks? They don't even do that at MY job. Misdemeanor B theft, unless you have no means, generally results in posting bail long before you have to be back at your 8am job the next day. Hyperbole is fun...but it's not your friend.

And to the person who said "once a thief, always a thief" I'm amused. I went to jail as a 16 year old for stealing comic books. Have never stolen a thing since. Told DPD all about it on the job application. Yet, somehow, they trusted me with thousands of dollars and drugs for 3 1/2 years. They trust me to incarcerate people. And my word sends people to state and federal prison. Not bad for a lifetime thief, huh?

Take away their scholarship you say? Brilliant! Let's remove them from a team environment, one where they can be encouraged (and shamed) when they screw up. Let's take away that peer support group. If we're lucky this football scholarship is the only way they were able to pay for college. Let's strip that away and discard them while we hope for the best. Ooooor, we could put them on notice that their lifelines have now been exhausted. Let them understand that while we are there for them, punishment is forthcoming in a heavy dose if they step out of line again. Kinda like this crazy concept called probation that is meted out each and every day in courtrooms.

But Emmitt, they represent me and my university!!! I pay for their scholarship! I'm sure they'd gladly give you back the 100th (if that) of their tuition that you actually pay personally. And they represent my university too. When I went to that university I saw thousands of young men and women finding their bearings and making multiple mistakes. I think we called it growth back in the olden days.

And before anyone says I'm excusing their behavior, tap the brakes. I believe more than just about anyone in punishing crime. But I also understand that the purpose of punishment is not just to be punitive, but also to be corrective. I have no doubt that Mac will find that balance.

Unless these guys are truly incorrigible scumbags (which I doubt), nail on the head.

[Harry]

You'd be fired from your job? Please tell me, where do you work that they do random criminal history checks? They don't even do that at MY job. Misdemeanor B theft, unless you have no means, generally results in posting bail long before you have to be back at your 8am job the next day. Hyperbole is fun...but it's not your friend.

And to the person who said "once a thief, always a thief" I'm amused. I went to jail as a 16 year old for stealing comic books. Have never stolen a thing since. Told DPD all about it on the job application. Yet, somehow, they trusted me with thousands of dollars and drugs for 3 1/2 years. They trust me to incarcerate people. And my word sends people to state and federal prison. Not bad for a lifetime thief, huh?

Take away their scholarship you say? Brilliant! Let's remove them from a team environment, one where they can be encouraged (and shamed) when they screw up. Let's take away that peer support group. If we're lucky this football scholarship is the only way they were able to pay for college. Let's strip that away and discard them while we hope for the best. Ooooor, we could put them on notice that their lifelines have now been exhausted. Let them understand that while we are there for them, punishment is forthcoming in a heavy dose if they step out of line again. Kinda like this crazy concept called probation that is meted out each and every day in courtrooms.

But Emmitt, they represent me and my university!!! I pay for their scholarship! I'm sure they'd gladly give you back the 100th (if that) of their tuition that you actually pay personally. And they represent my university too. When I went to that university I saw thousands of young men and women finding their bearings and making multiple mistakes. I think we called it growth back in the olden days.

And before anyone says I'm excusing their behavior, tap the brakes. I believe more than just about anyone in punishing crime. But I also understand that the purpose of punishment is not just to be punitive, but also to be corrective. I have no doubt that Mac will find that balance.

Good points Emmitt!

[PlummMeanGreen]

The One whose very birth our calendars even go by and who is celebrated in the USA by mostly giving our country's retailers it's largest sales cycle of any year (and then the ACLU types makes sure He's placed back on our country's back-burner of insignificance after all have made their bonanza because of His birth) once said: "He who is without sin let him throw the first stone."

I just think everyone deserves a 2'nd (sometimes even a 3'rd) chance in life for their mistakes. I hope these 2 guys get that kind of consideration.

GMG!

Edited December 16, 2012 by PlummMeanGreen

[trussbussdad]

Many team face these issues every year and the coaches and AD have to make tough decisions that will be best for all concerned. Coach Mac and RV will do the right thing. And when their decision comes down regardless of what it is, we need to be supportive, and help in whatever way we can for this team to move on.

[UNT90]

You'd be fired from your job? Please tell me, where do you work that they do random criminal history checks? They don't even do that at MY job. Misdemeanor B theft, unless you have no means, generally results in posting bail long before you have to be back at your 8am job the next day. Hyperbole is fun...but it's not your friend.

And to the person who said "once a thief, always a thief" I'm amused. I went to jail as a 16 year old for stealing comic books. Have never stolen a thing since. Told DPD all about it on the job application. Yet, somehow, they trusted me with thousands of dollars and drugs for 3 1/2 years. They trust me to incarcerate people. And my word sends people to state and federal prison. Not bad for a lifetime thief, huh?

Take away their scholarship you say? Brilliant! Let's remove them from a team environment, one where they can be encouraged (and shamed) when they screw up. Let's take away that peer support group. If we're lucky this football scholarship is the only way they were able to pay for college. Let's strip that away and discard them while we hope for the best. Ooooor, we could put them on notice that their lifelines have now been exhausted. Let them understand that while we are there for them, punishment is forthcoming in a heavy dose if they step out of line again. Kinda like this crazy concept called probation that is meted out each and every day in courtrooms.

But Emmitt, they represent me and my university!!! I pay for their scholarship! I'm sure they'd gladly give you back the 100th (if that) of their tuition that you actually pay personally. And they represent my university too. When I went to that university I saw thousands of young men and women finding their bearings and making multiple mistakes. I think we called it growth back in the olden days.

And before anyone says I'm excusing their behavior, tap the brakes. I believe more than just about anyone in punishing crime. But I also understand that the purpose of punishment is not just to be punitive, but also to be corrective. I have no doubt that Mac will find that balance.

Yep. I'm sure no one on here had sex in their car on a public street or in a public parking lot with their girlfriend when they were 17-22, right? Well, if you did, you committed the same level of offense as these guys.

I'm guessing no one stole candy from the convenience store when they were young (I know I did), right? You sorry thieves.

And, most importantly of all, I'm sure no one on here has EVER driven when they were over the legal limit of .08, right? Guess what, that is EXACTLY the same level of offense as this theft. But, of course, this theft didn't involve putting others in danger the way your innocent "I'm OK to drive" DWI violation did, regardless of whether you were caught or not.

In the grand scheme of things, this is just young kids being really, really stupid. Let's just be thankful that this was the avenue of stupid that they chose, because there are far worse stupid streets.

[EagleMBA]

Daddy would have made a liberal application of a razor strop to my azz for doing what these kids did. It was his version of a nuclear deterrent!

[aztecskin]

Some of you need better jobs.

I tend to lean on the side of compassion. 19-yo kids stealing clothes is very correctable. Let's not rush to judgement here.

[Green P1]

Maybe they was gonna give them clothes to poor people?

#realliferobinhoods?

[eulessismore]

You'd be fired from your job? Please tell me, where do you work that they do random criminal history checks? They don't even do that at MY job. Misdemeanor B theft, unless you have no means, generally results in posting bail long before you have to be back at your 8am job the next day. Hyperbole is fun...but it's not your friend.

And to the person who said "once a thief, always a thief" I'm amused. I went to jail as a 16 year old for stealing comic books. Have never stolen a thing since. Told DPD all about it on the job application. Yet, somehow, they trusted me with thousands of dollars and drugs for 3 1/2 years. They trust me to incarcerate people. And my word sends people to state and federal prison. Not bad for a lifetime thief, huh?

Take away their scholarship you say? Brilliant! Let's remove them from a team environment, one where they can be encouraged (and shamed) when they screw up. Let's take away that peer support group. If we're lucky this football scholarship is the only way they were able to pay for college. Let's strip that away and discard them while we hope for the best. Ooooor, we could put them on notice that their lifelines have now been exhausted. Let them understand that while we are there for them, punishment is forthcoming in a heavy dose if they step out of line again. Kinda like this crazy concept called probation that is meted out each and every day in courtrooms.

But Emmitt, they represent me and my university!!! I pay for their scholarship! I'm sure they'd gladly give you back the 100th (if that) of their tuition that you actually pay personally. And they represent my university too. When I went to that university I saw thousands of young men and women finding their bearings and making multiple mistakes. I think we called it growth back in the olden days.

And before anyone says I'm excusing their behavior, tap the brakes. I believe more than just about anyone in punishing crime. But I also understand that the purpose of punishment is not just to be punitive, but also to be corrective. I have no doubt that Mac will find that balance.

+1. And of course, some staff where we work there at the City do not favor the policy of overlooking those minor offenses. And there are reasons a lot of people are taking dui at any level quite seriously. But, I am glad you are in favor of the "correction" part of corrections.

[Harry]

I'm here at the game and Tony continues to pass the ball put when he receives it ..,,Benford came unglued. Typical story, noone can shoot and they are holding their own in the boards and doubling Tony and Chris begging someone else to beat them.

[UNTFan23]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Harry" data-cid="695918" data-time="1355687955"><p>

I'm here at the game and Tony continues to pass the ball put when he receives it ..,,Benford came unglued. Typical story, noone can shoot and they are holding their own in the boards and doubling Tony and Chris begging someone else to beat them.</p></blockquote>

Wrong thread Harry.

[MeanMag]

You'd be fired from your job? Please tell me, where do you work that they do random criminal history checks? They don't even do that at MY job. Misdemeanor B theft, unless you have no means, generally results in posting bail long before you have to be back at your 8am job the next day. Hyperbole is fun...but it's not your friend.

All of your other points are valid. This one is not.

[oldguystudent]

Public accountant here, and pretty much constantly vetted. AICPA and TSCPA rules of conduct. It's pretty easy to get kicked out for what some might perceive to be relatively minor offenses.

I would really like to see two standards of legal involvement actually exist:

1. Innocent until proven guilty and perceived as such. Employment applications now ask, "Have you been arrested," not, "Have you been convicted."
2. Letting someone pay their debt to society and be done with it. If you do have a conviction, even at class B misdemeanor level, that will be held against you for LIFE by any employer paying over $50,000 a year. Shoplift when you're 19? Get a DWI when you're 30? Game over sucker, you're relegated to working at Discount Tires for the rest of your life! (Unless, of course, you're a banker who bilked investors for billions. Then you're golden)

So, Emmitt, conceptually, I agree with you, but as far as the legal system, and future employment opportunites actually function, my friend's uncle, who had a little run-in with the police about 20 years ago said it best, "Getting involved with the legal system is like trying to get fly paper off your hands. Once you're in it, you'll never get rid of it."

[Daddy Dumpsalot]

They should have just come to me, I would have gladly bought them anything they wanted for a few autographed jerseys.

[LongJim]

You can intend to do something (steal) and it still be a mistake.

These two kids need to learn from this mistake (or intentional act from a lapse of judgment) and move on. There are ways they can learn from this mistake besides yanking a scholarship and kicking them off the team.

Hope the best for them.

Yeah. You know, I'm not going to argue semantics--which is exactly what we're talking about in this situation, ironically (?)

I wish the best for them, and all that, and I'm not saying kick them off the team. I'm just making a general observation that usually applies in cases like this. Particularly if it's your own ox being gored, and I'm not really saying anyone here is making that observation. Only speaking for myself.

You can't intend to take something that isn't yours and have it be a mistake. It's not possible.

Picking up the wrong gym bag while in a hurry, or grabbing the wrong coat because it looks like yours in a big group is a mistake. It implies ignorance and there's no intent to be dishonest.

Knowingly shoving stuff that doesn't belong to you into a backpack and trying to leave with it isn't a "mistake". Smoking up and pissing dirty or selling crack/whatever down in Fort Worth isn't a "mistake".

"Mistake" is just a word that sugar coats bad behavior and makes it more palatable. It's more of the "wussification of society" that we rail on when it fits a situation that doesn't affect us, but yet we'll use cop-out words like "mistake" when it does affect us.

Oh well. Doesn't apply in this case I'm sure, so let's all go on with our bad selves!

Edited December 17, 2012 by LongJim

[buff64]

Yeah. You know, I'm not going to argue semantics--which is exactly what we're talking about in this situation, ironically (?)

I wish the best for them, and all that, and I'm not saying kick them off the team. I'm just making a general observation that usually applies in cases like this. Particularly if it's your own ox being gored, and I'm not really saying anyone here is making that observation. Only speaking for myself.

You can't intend to take something that isn't yours and have it be a mistake. It's not possible.

Picking up the wrong gym bag while in a hurry, or grabbing the wrong coat because it looks like yours in a big group is a mistake. It implies ignorance and there's no intent to be dishonest.

Knowingly shoving stuff that doesn't belong to you into a backpack and trying to leave with it isn't a "mistake". Smoking up and pissing dirty or selling crack/whatever down in Fort Worth isn't a "mistake".

"Mistake" is just a word that sugar coats bad behavior and makes it more palatable. It's more of the "wussification of society" that we rail on when it fits a situation that doesn't affect us, but yet we'll use cop-out words like "mistake" when it does affect us.

Oh well. Doesn't apply in this case I'm sure, so let's all go on with our bad selves!

So, no participation ribbons ?

[Christopher Walker]

http://tinyurl.com/9mu63wj

Holy cow that is good.

You'd be fired from your job? Please tell me, where do you work that they do random criminal history checks? They don't even do that at MY job. Misdemeanor B theft, unless you have no means, generally results in posting bail long before you have to be back at your 8am job the next day. Hyperbole is fun...but it's not your friend.

And to the person who said "once a thief, always a thief" I'm amused. I went to jail as a 16 year old for stealing comic books. Have never stolen a thing since. Told DPD all about it on the job application. Yet, somehow, they trusted me with thousands of dollars and drugs for 3 1/2 years. They trust me to incarcerate people. And my word sends people to state and federal prison. Not bad for a lifetime thief, huh?

Take away their scholarship you say? Brilliant! Let's remove them from a team environment, one where they can be encouraged (and shamed) when they screw up. Let's take away that peer support group. If we're lucky this football scholarship is the only way they were able to pay for college. Let's strip that away and discard them while we hope for the best. Ooooor, we could put them on notice that their lifelines have now been exhausted. Let them understand that while we are there for them, punishment is forthcoming in a heavy dose if they step out of line again. Kinda like this crazy concept called probation that is meted out each and every day in courtrooms.

But Emmitt, they represent me and my university!!! I pay for their scholarship! I'm sure they'd gladly give you back the 100th (if that) of their tuition that you actually pay personally. And they represent my university too. When I went to that university I saw thousands of young men and women finding their bearings and making multiple mistakes. I think we called it growth back in the olden days.

And before anyone says I'm excusing their behavior, tap the brakes. I believe more than just about anyone in punishing crime. But I also understand that the purpose of punishment is not just to be punitive, but also to be corrective. I have no doubt that Mac will find that balance.

And +1s all around.

[foutsrouts]

Public accountant here, and pretty much constantly vetted. AICPA and TSCPA rules of conduct. It's pretty easy to get kicked out for what some might perceive to be relatively minor offenses.

I would really like to see two standards of legal involvement actually exist:

1. Innocent until proven guilty and perceived as such. Employment applications now ask, "Have you been arrested," not, "Have you been convicted."
2. Letting someone pay their debt to society and be done with it. If you do have a conviction, even at class B misdemeanor level, that will be held against you for LIFE by any employer paying over $50,000 a year. Shoplift when you're 19? Get a DWI when you're 30? Game over sucker, you're relegated to working at Discount Tires for the rest of your life! (Unless, of course, you're a banker who bilked investors for billions. Then you're golden)

So, Emmitt, conceptually, I agree with you, but as far as the legal system, and future employment opportunites actually function, my friend's uncle, who had a little run-in with the police about 20 years ago said it best, "Getting involved with the legal system is like trying to get fly paper off your hands. Once you're in it, you'll never get rid of it."

Unfortunately, at many jobs these days they're going to check you out for arrests no matter what you put on your application. So in that sense, even with only an arrest and no conviction on your record, it is often guilty until proven innocent with many employers. Intellius, Been Verified, and the DPS are only a couple of clicks away.

Getting a quality attorney right off the bat is critical, because if you get the best outcome possible it increases your chances of getting the whole record of the incident expunged a couple of years down the road. Of course an expungement ain't always gonna come cheap, but it's probably worth it to most people in this day and age.

I recently heard the reliable story of a guy who got an old Class A misdemeanor arrest AND conviction expunged in a small Texas county for $10,000 even though his basis for reversal was shaky at best. I guess the best way to go is to just avoid getting into trouble in the first place.

[MCMLXXX]

A few years ago the NCAA denied "walking around" money for student athletes..

Leach would have told them to let their fat girlfriends buy what they need.

[Dr. Seuss]

Yes, I would be fired from my job if I was a shoplifter. They don't do 'random' background checks at my job. They do complete 10 year background checks every few years where they examine everything and everyone in my life. If I decide to stop paying my credit cards off, I can lose my job. If I decided to start stealing things, I would lose my job. So it isn't hyperbole, smartass, I am just holding them to the same standard to which I am held.

I will, however, concede that perhaps they should not be held to that same standard. But their job is to represent UNT and they are failing at that. So if you are underperforming at your job, you generally get counseled and given ways to improve, unless you are taking money from the register or something like that, then you get fired. So if Mac sees this as failing at their job, gives them probation and higher behavior restrictions, maybe a suspension, then I can see that being appropriate. On the other hand, if coach sees it as stealing from the register, then they should be gone. I can see both arguments.

I struggle with the argument that they are kids and deserve to be viewed differently, with more leniency. I kind of tend to agree, but the answer I can't come up with is, at what point do we stop being easier on them? At what age do they 'know bettter' and have to suffer the same consequences as an adult?

But I do see your point, Emmitt, about first offenders getting probation from courts. We don't throw everyone in jail every time they err. But I do think that the punishment from the team is a separate issue. Definately if they are kicked off the team or suspended, it should be after they have been judged.

You did make a good argument for a second chance.

So when you were 19 you never made mistakes, you never made a careless decision that could have impacted you or others for the rest of their lives.. I find that hard to believe, because everyone has done something, they just got caught.

Now I dont condone these acts and give them a slap on the wrist, 2 game suspension is good enough. As far as my job goes, If I have any citation other than a class c, I have to report it to the SEC and Finra every year and could lose my job depending on the situation... Now would I expect a 19 year old kid to be on the same level as me, a 25 year old, absolutely not. Thats why my employer hires college grads or soon to be graduates, not 19 year old kids

Edited December 18, 2012 by Dr. Seuss

[MeanGreenZen]

As long as Jimmer keeps breaking those tackles I don't care if he steals the nuclear codes. Warner keeps getting hurt, Coach Mac should make an example of him and kick him off the team.

Haha.

[SilverEagle]

Unfortunately, at many jobs these days they're going to check you out for arrests no matter what you put on your application. So in that sense, even with only an arrest and no conviction on your record, it is often guilty until proven innocent with many employers. Intellius, Been Verified, and the DPS are only a couple of clicks away.

Getting a quality attorney right off the bat is critical, because if you get the best outcome possible it increases your chances of getting the whole record of the incident expunged a couple of years down the road. Of course an expungement ain't always gonna come cheap, but it's probably worth it to most people in this day and age.

I recently heard the reliable story of a guy who got an old Class A misdemeanor arrest AND conviction expunged in a small Texas county for $10,000 even though his basis for reversal was shaky at best. I guess the best way to go is to just avoid getting into trouble in the first place.

The word expunged is very important here. You can have a charged dropped, and your Lawyer might have told you that it will not be on your record, but THE FACT THAT YOU WERE ONCE ARRESTED FOR (insert name of minor charge here) WILL ALWAYS BE ON THE OFFICIAL RECORDS UNLESS IT IS......EXPUNGED.