Sunday Night 12-9-12 UNT Recruiting News

untjim1995 · December 10, 2012

Reading this thread reminds me of why being a UNT fan is so damn hard. We all want success here so bad, but the reality is that our program has pretty much been abysmal for 35 years. Then, even when the coach gets hired and has only won 9 games in his first two years, he gets barbecued by fans who demand that we expect more. Yet, again, our recruiting is usually terrible compared to the teams we all somehow believe we "should" be competitive with--in other words, old SWC schools, who have everything we don't ($$$, media, name recognition). So we have to hope that we can "coach" them up--as mentioned earlier, Patterson got lots of credit for this at TCU, but he was doing that with 2 and 3 star kids that he could fit into his defensive playbook, simliar to Leach at Tech with his offensive strategy. Then we think we should be able to replicate these once-in-5-decades-hire like they've done. Guess what--we did that, with Hayden Fry. Then when a team that we think that we should be way above, like ULM or WKU, starts winning, we think why can't we do that, too? Well, the answer is simple, too--we did--from 2002-2004. Most programs in the MAC, SBC, etc...don't stay anywhere close to the top for any pronounced amount of time, just like we didn't during our "glory years" under Dickey. You get about 2-4 year run as a winning program, then your coaches get hired away, or in our case, just give up because they didn't hired away.

Most people who are rational, whether you are a police office or businessman, don't look at the UNT situation right now as good by any definition, but the head coach has already turned us in the right direction from the previous 6 years on the field and off the field, and his PR is better than anyone we have seen in 35 years here. If he doesn't win 6 games next year, than the coach will know that he has one year to get it right or else we will make another change. Then the cycle starts again. And the constant theme will continue to be that we will all post about how we deserve better since we are a big university and our location makes us a sleeping giant and our facilities are better than ever and..yada, yada, yada.

Look, you don't have to like Coach Mac or think he is the right guy. He might not be. But, in the big picture, with the way college football is heading, it probably won't matter at this point on if he is or if he isn't. We got started in this business of trying to actually fund a decent program about 10-15 years too late. Coach Mac is the best we can buy right now. Even if Coach Mac wins big next year, just like Northern Illinois has done this year, and we somehow got the non-AQ bid, it isn't changing the fact that we aren't going to be included in the Super 64 or 65, just like it won't help NIU or anyone else in the non-AQ leagues. Absolutely none of that will be Coach McCarney's fault or even RV's fault. And that's the rub--recruits know this because their coaches and families know that the university didn't show any reason for fans or media to care about them for decades. And sustained winning comes from the recruits you pull in to run your system, unless you are that Fry, Leach, or Patterson hire that comes around once every 50 years. Otherwise, history tells us that you fall back in line with results that befit your university's commitment to the sport, at least as compared to others in your peer group. So even if you think Chico is the answer or if the right guy is not here right now, the only chance we have to make any difference in the results we have seen is to find our once-in-a-lifetime coach. Otherwise, with the recruits we do get and the apathy that we deal with from all levels, not much is going to change in Denton, success-wise. The only questions I have at this point in regards to our football future are when does our playing level get pushed back to being lower than the current FBS and who will we see playing at that level with us? Because the hard truth is that there are going to be some schools on that list that never imagined getting dropped down (TCU and Baylor might just be two of them, which would make their current coaches most vulnerable to leaving if/when that occurs, causing both to go back to being what they traditionally have been). McCarney winning 8+ games next year and the following year ain't changing any of those dynamics. As FFR points out, we love this team because it is ours. But it doesn't make it any easier knowing that we really never gave our football team a decent chance to compete as a legitimate FBS school until it is well after the fact. And as we always see at this time of the year, everyone associated with recruiting knows it, too.

emmitt01 · December 10, 2012

Reading this thread reminds me of why being a UNT fan is so damn hard. We all want success here so bad, but the reality is that our program has pretty much been abysmal for 35 years. Then, even when the coach gets hired and has only won 9 games in his first two years, he gets barbecued by fans who demand that we expect more. Yet, again, our recruiting is usually terrible compared to the teams we all somehow believe we "should" be competitive with--in other words, old SWC schools, who have everything we don't ($$$, media, name recognition). So we have to hope that we can "coach" them up--as mentioned earlier, Patterson got lots of credit for this at TCU, but he was doing that with 2 and 3 star kids that he could fit into his defensive playbook, simliar to Leach at Tech with his offensive strategy. Then we think we should be able to replicate these once-in-5-decades-hire like they've done. Guess what--we did that, with Hayden Fry. Then when a team that we think that we should be way above, like ULM or WKU, starts winning, we think why can't we do that, too? Well, the answer is simple, too--we did--from 2002-2004. Most programs in the MAC, SBC, etc...don't stay anywhere close to the top for any pronounced amount of time, just like we didn't during our "glory years" under Dickey. You get about 2-4 year run as a winning program, then your coaches get hired away, or in our case, just give up because they didn't hired away.

Most people who are rational, whether you are a police office or businessman, don't look at the UNT situation right now as good by any definition, but the head coach has already turned us in the right direction from the previous 6 years on the field and off the field, and his PR is better than anyone we have seen in 35 years here. If he doesn't win 6 games next year, than the coach will know that he has one year to get it right or else we will make another change. Then the cycle starts again. And the constant theme will continue to be that we will all post about how we deserve better since we are a big university and our location makes us a sleeping giant and our facilities are better than ever and..yada, yada, yada.

Look, you don't have to like Coach Mac or think he is the right guy. He might not be. But, in the big picture, with the way college football is heading, it probably won't matter at this point on if he is or if he isn't. We got started in this business of trying to actually fund a decent program about 10-15 years too late. Coach Mac is the best we can buy right now. Even if Coach Mac wins big next year, just like Northern Illinois has done this year, and we somehow got the non-AQ bid, it isn't changing the fact that we aren't going to be included in the Super 64 or 65, just like it won't help NIU or anyone else in the non-AQ leagues. Absolutely none of that will be Coach McCarney's fault or even RV's fault. And that's the rub--recruits know this because their coaches and families know that the university didn't show any reason for fans or media to care about them for decades. And sustained winning comes from the recruits you pull in to run your system, unless you are that Fry, Leach, or Patterson hire that comes around once every 50 years. Otherwise, history tells us that you fall back in line with results that befit your university's commitment to the sport, at least as compared to others in your peer group. So even if you think Chico is the answer or if the right guy is not here right now, the only chance we have to make any difference in the results we have seen is to find our once-in-a-lifetime coach. Otherwise, with the recruits we do get and the apathy that we deal with from all levels, not much is going to change in Denton, success-wise. The only questions I have at this point in regards to our football future are when does our playing level get pushed back to being lower than the current FBS and who will we see playing at that level with us? Because the hard truth is that there are going to be some schools on that list that never imagined getting dropped down (TCU and Baylor might just be two of them, which would make their current coaches most vulnerable to leaving if/when that occurs, causing both to go back to being what they traditionally have been). McCarney winning 8+ games next year and the following year ain't changing any of those dynamics. As FFR points out, we love this team because it is ours. But it doesn't make it any easier knowing that we really never gave our football team a decent chance to compete as a legitimate FBS school until it is well after the fact. And as we always see at this time of the year, everyone associated with recruiting knows it, too.

But it's not that we want to be competitive with old SWC schools. Some (actually a select few) get all bent out of shape when we ask why we're CONSISTENTLY losing recruiting battles...and subsequently on the field...to the ULM's, ULL's, and Arky State's of the football world. If we were at the top (or near the top) of the Sun Belt I think many of us would happily hop on the good ship lolli-pop with the rest of the apologists. We're not close. Until we can be competitive with even the worst conference in football all of the excuses are just that.

"He's a coach..." is a tired EXCUSE

"It's Dodge's fault" is an EXCUSE (Funny that many of the same apologists were on the pie forum crying about how our President can't try to blame his predecessor for the previous four years...then promptly ran over here with the same ol' song and dance)

We have better facilities, better funding, better location than the teams that are killing us on the recruiting trail. We are in for another loooong season if we keep beating out the juggernauts of the SWAC for players.

untjim1995 · December 10, 2012

But it's not that we want to be competitive with old SWC schools. Some (actually a select few) get all bent out of shape when we ask why we're CONSISTENTLY losing recruiting battles...and subsequently on the field...to the ULM's, ULL's, and Arky State's of the football world. If we were at the top (or near the top) of the Sun Belt I think many of us would happily hop on the good ship lolli-pop with the rest of the apologists. We're not close. Until we can be competitive with even the worst conference in football all of the excuses are just that.
"He's a coach..." is a tired EXCUSE
"It's Dodge's fault" is an EXCUSE (Funny that many of the same apologists were on the pie forum crying about how our President can't try to blame his predecessor for the previous four years...then promptly ran over here with the same ol' song and dance)
We have better facilities, better funding, better location than the teams that are killing us on the recruiting trail. We are in for another loooong season if we keep beating out the juggernauts of the SWAC for players.

Don't get me wrong, emmitt. I agree on all of wha tyou just posted. The question is why is Monroe or Lafayette or Jonesboro more appealing to those guys right now? It just seems to me that it goes back to the bigger issues that I posted about above. The university and the city have such a poor reputation among college football fans and media that it also filters down to high school coaches and recruits. Denton is known for music and arts and...apathetic athletic support and losing programs that get no attention from the media. Its also a college town that isn't terribly far away from home for the Metroplex kids--I still think that also plays a part, too. I grew up in FW and I feel like I kind of missed out on a true college experience, even though I was a student manager all the years I was in school at UNT. It was less than a hour away--a lot of weekends and weeknights were spent in the Metroplex, not in Denton. A lot of people think going to UT, A&M, Tech, OU, or OSU are the truest places to go away for the college experience, but think of the people we went to HS with that went to SFA or SWT just because it was further away from home. Combine this matter of fact with poor performance and complete apathy surrounding the program and it becomes more understandable why Jonesboro, Arkansas or Lafayette, LA become more attractive. And I'll bet it won't be long before we see Metroplex recruits heading down to San Marcos, too, for their college football careers.

GrandGreen · December 10, 2012

Don't get me wrong, emmitt. I agree on all of wha tyou just posted. The question is why is Monroe or Lafayette or Jonesboro more appealing to those guys right now? It just seems to me that it goes back to the bigger issues that I posted about above. The university and the city have such a poor reputation among college football fans and media that it also filters down to high school coaches and recruits. Denton is known for music and arts and...apathetic athletic support and losing programs that get no attention from the media. Its also a college town that isn't terribly far away from home for the Metroplex kids--I still think that also plays a part, too. I grew up in FW and I feel like I kind of missed out on a true college experience, even though I was a student manager all the years I was in school at UNT. It was less than a hour away--a lot of weekends and weeknights were spent in the Metroplex, not in Denton. A lot of people think going to UT, A&M, Tech, OU, or OSU are the truest places to go away for the college experience, but think of the people we went to HS with that went to SFA or SWT just because it was further away from home. Combine this matter of fact with poor performance and complete apathy surrounding the program and it becomes more understandable why Jonesboro, Arkansas or Lafayette, LA become more attractive. And I'll bet it won't be long before we see Metroplex recruits heading down to San Marcos, too, for their college football careers.

A school of 35k students in the heart of the best football recruiting area anywhere and now with some of the best facilities of any non-power conference school and we can't compete with Texas State, UTSA, La Tech, ULM, ASU and apparently anybody because of art students, being in a metropolitan area, and on and on.

I hate to break to you but no school in the Belt or CUSA has great support unless they are winning. Some like SMU don't even draw when they are winning. A small private like Tulsa, a in the middle of nowhere La Tech and even the poorest school ever in fb football ULM, and two programs one year in the fb division are just too much for NT to compete with. BS, NT can compete and should dominate these programs.

I don't think many expect miracles out of McCarney/RV but to believe NT can't do better than it has the last decade is the definition of defeatism. If our current coaches and AD can't sell NT, than get some one who can. Students proved this year they will support a program that wins, prospective athletes are sold on current circumstances; they are not swayed by history.

Edited December 10, 2012 by GrandGreen

The Fake Lonnie Finch · December 10, 2012

NT apologists will never run out of reasons not to succeed. A school of 35k students in the heart of the best football recruiting area anywhere and now with some of the best facilities of any non-power conference school and we can't compete with Texas State, UTSA, La Tech, ULM, ASU and apparently anybody because of art students, being in a metropolitan area, and on and on.

I hate to break to you but no school in the Belt or CUSA has great support unless they are winning. Some like SMU don't even draw when they are winning. A small private like Tulsa, a in the middle of nowhere La Tech and even the poorest school ever in fb football ULM, and two programs one year in the fb division are just too much for NT to compete with. BS, NT can compete and should dominate these programs.

I don't think many expect miracles out of McCarney/RV but to believe NT can't do better than it has the last decade is the definition of defeatism. If our current coaches and AD can't sell NT, than get some one who can. Students proves this year they will support a program that wins, prospective athletes are sold on current circumsances they are not swayed by history.

Yes. This pretty much says it all.

I think Rick deserved a bust for getting Apogee built. But, at some point the wins have got to come.

Digging out of holes...many coaches have dug out of holes as bad or worse than we have either after Dickey or Dodge.

The winning really does have to start next year. I don't see what good another 4-8 or 5-7 will do for us.

I know this gets tired - hearing and saying - but, good lord, Tulsa was on the verge of going FCS after going 2-21 in 2001 and 2002. Kragthorpe did it in one year...one year with a roster full of the same players that had gone 1-10 and 1-11 the previous to season. Plus, the starting QB left after 200s and transferred to OU...to play baseball.

So, he did it breaking in a new QB on top of having a "bare cupboard" and "crappy stadium" and "little administrative support" and "no fan base." I can assure you that the 2002 Tulsa-UTEP game drew no more than 200 live butts in seats. I don't care what the "paid attendance" was. Area junior highs were outdrawing Tulsa at that point.

We were in the dadgum Sun Belt conference and just had our 8th straight losing season. I mean, come on. Every other school in the Belt, coaching changes or not, has had a winning season or two in those 8 seasons, but not us?

It's got to stop. The excuses have to stop. The winning has to come. Otherwise, we and Eastern Michigan really are just the University of Perpetual Football Sucking.

Edited December 10, 2012 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

UNTLifer · December 10, 2012

But it's not that we want to be competitive with old SWC schools. Some (actually a select few) get all bent out of shape when we ask why we're CONSISTENTLY losing recruiting battles...and subsequently on the field...to the ULM's, ULL's, and Arky State's of the football world. If we were at the top (or near the top) of the Sun Belt I think many of us would happily hop on the good ship lolli-pop with the rest of the apologists. We're not close. Until we can be competitive with even the worst conference in football all of the excuses are just that.
"He's a coach..." is a tired EXCUSE
"It's Dodge's fault" is an EXCUSE (Funny that many of the same apologists were on the pie forum crying about how our President can't try to blame his predecessor for the previous four years...then promptly ran over here with the same ol' song and dance)
We have better facilities, better funding, better location than the teams that are killing us on the recruiting trail. We are in for another loooong season if we keep beating out the juggernauts of the SWAC for players.

It is not about being an apologist, it is about being a realist. Mac followed the failed experiment known as the Dodge years. Call them what you want, but that is fact. Taking that into consideration, I think constantly crying about what we don't have right now is ridiculous. Mac deserves time to turn this around and every indication tells me that he has made some positive changes. Is everything perfect at this time? Not by a long shot, but it is headed in the right direction.

Everyone wants to jump on Mac's overall record, but he took over a program at Iowa State that had rarely won and was the constant doormat of its conference. That change couldn't happen overnight, and it didn't, but turning that program around took a monumental effort. I believe he deserves the chance to do the same here, which includes being given a realistic timeframe to achieve success. By the way, two seasons isn't enough. We finally have a coach that wants to turn this around and appears to be at the age where moving up isn't that important, but committing the program to success is. Let's give the man a chance.

Yes, recruiting could be better, but we won't attract the 3, 4, and possibly 5 star players until we start winning consistently and beating more successful programs. We have to give these kids a reason to come here. Apogee and all the other new facilities are great, but if we don't win, they won't come.

So call me an apologist if you wish. You aren't hurting my feelings Officer Jackson. I'm just tired of the people not giving the man a fighting chance to turn this around, not looking at the entire picture and thinking they have all the answers when you are around the program maybe 10 times a year and the head coach lives and breaths it 365 days a year and who's livelyhood depends on its success.

Carry on.

emmitt01 · December 10, 2012

It is not about being an apologist, it is about being a realist. Mac followed the failed experiment known as the Dodge years. Call them what you want, but that is fact. Taking that into consideration, I think constantly crying about what we don't have right now is ridiculous. Mac deserves time to turn this around and every indication tells me that he has made some positive changes. Is everything perfect at this time? Not by a long shot, but it is headed in the right direction.

Everyone wants to jump on Mac's overall record, but he took over a program at Iowa State that had rarely won and was the constant doormat of its conference. That change couldn't happen overnight, and it didn't, but turning that program around took a monumental effort. I believe he deserves the chance to do the same here, which includes being given a realistic timeframe to achieve success. By the way, two seasons isn't enough. We finally have a coach that wants to turn this around and appears to be at the age where moving up isn't that important, but committing the program to success is. Let's give the man a chance.

Yes, recruiting could be better, but we won't attract the 3, 4, and possibly 5 star players until we start winning consistently and beating more successful programs. We have to give these kids a reason to come here. Apogee and all the other new facilities are great, but if we don't win, they won't come.

So call me an apologist if you wish. You aren't hurting my feelings Officer Jackson. I'm just tired of the people not giving the man a fighting chance to turn this around, not looking at the entire picture and thinking they have all the answers when you are around the program maybe 10 times a year and the head coach lives and breaths it 365 days a year and who's livelyhood depends on its success.

Carry on.

Apologist

UNT90 · December 10, 2012

Yes, recruiting could be better, but we won't attract the 3, 4, and possibly 5 star players until we start winning consistently and beating more successful programs. We have to give these kids a reason to come here. Apogee and all the other new facilities are great, but if we don't win, they won't come.

So explain why, right now, UTSA and Texas St. are out-recruiting UNT. Yes, this could change before national signing day, but it isn't a good omen, and being out-recruited by those 2 schools is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

Edited December 10, 2012 by UNT90

Green Mean · December 10, 2012

Everyone wants to jump on Mac's overall record, but he took over a program at Iowa State that had rarely won and was the constant doormat of its conference. That change couldn't happen overnight, and it didn't, but turning that program around took a monumental effort. I believe he deserves the chance to do the same here, which includes being given a realistic timeframe to achieve success. By the way, two seasons isn't enough. We finally have a coach that wants to turn this around and appears to be at the age where moving up isn't that important, but committing the program to success is. Let's give the man a chance.

You can poo poo Iowa State all you want but Iowa State was still in a power conference and had more resources to work with than most other Non D1 schools. And I'll say this again, how can you possibly defend a 56-85 record and label it as turning the program around?

untjim1995 · December 10, 2012

A school of 35k students in the heart of the best football recruiting area anywhere and now with some of the best facilities of any non-power conference school and we can't compete with Texas State, UTSA, La Tech, ULM, ASU and apparently anybody because of art students, being in a metropolitan area, and on and on.

I hate to break to you but no school in the Belt or CUSA has great support unless they are winning. Some like SMU don't even draw when they are winning. A small private like Tulsa, a in the middle of nowhere La Tech and even the poorest school ever in fb football ULM, and two programs one year in the fb division are just too much for NT to compete with. BS, NT can compete and should dominate these programs.

I don't think many expect miracles out of McCarney/RV but to believe NT can't do better than it has the last decade is the definition of defeatism. If our current coaches and AD can't sell NT, than get some one who can. Students proved this year they will support a program that wins, prospective athletes are sold on current circumstances; they are not swayed by history.

I'm not disagreeing with much of what you posted. I was just opining on why recruits are choosing podunk towns over the wonderful nirvana known as Denton. And I do call BS on the history part not swaying recruits--when you can only show recruits that you have had three winning seasons as a FBS program since we moved back up to 1-A in 1995, and those three years were from 2002-2004 in the Sun Belt, then we fell back down again, recruits damn well care about that. I'm not saying any SBC team SHOULD be better than us, but I'm just trying to find reasons why someone else would choose to go to one of those other schools. I just think this new SBCUSA we are about to join will prove yet again that what we face here, even with 36k students in a "hotbed" of football recruiting, is still a very daunting uphill fight. I guess I'm the Doubting Thomas here, but until we see our program beat these "podunk schools" on a consistent basis, I'm going to chalk it up to the fact that this university and its community that surrounds it have failed miserably at supporting its athletic teams, while being completely supportive of its arts and education programs. The coaches at ALL of the schools we recruit against tell recruits and their families the same thing. The good news is that if Coach Mac is really the guy to change this, like his mentor Hayden Fry did in the 70s, we will know it over the next two seasons. If not, its back to the beginning again.

Edited December 10, 2012 by untjim1995

Monkeypox · December 10, 2012

I don't think TCU has ever had classes as lowly rated as NT's have been since moving back up to FB status. They build up getting kids that didn't have offers from the big 12 not that didn't have offers from anywhere.

They actually beat out the Big 12 on kids, even back then. Not your Texas or OU types, but a lot of Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri types. TCU did it with more 3 and 4 star recruits than people think, and even a lot of their 2-stars, while "unheralded," had offers from other D1 programs.

untjim1995 · December 10, 2012

So explain why, right now, UTSA and Texas St. are out-recruiting UNT. Yes, this could change before national signing day, but it isn't a good omen, and being out-recruited by those 2 schools is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

It is unacceptable, but the reasons are fairly simple. Both schools have solid head coaches in place and they have nice bullet points to help with recruiting. UTSA can point to big crowds at the Alamodome, their future home schedules, and the SA media coverage down there to get some local kids to stay close by home, plus they beat TX State in their last game. TX State can point to their win over UH in the beginning of the season and their improvement in facilities as a FBS school located in a beautiful part of Texas. Our biggest win was at home over Louisiana-Lafayette on a Tuesday night in front of about 15k, on our way to a 4-8 season. I'm not saying that this is acceptable at all--its just that I can see how those two schools are going after their recruits and I have to say that playing home games against Texas Tech or Oklahoma State in OOC is just a tad better than playing Texas Southern or Idaho at home.

UNTLifer · December 10, 2012

untjim1995 speaks the truth.

Monkeypox · December 10, 2012

And I do call BS on the history part not swaying recruits--when you can only show recruits that you have had three winning seasons as a FBS program since we moved back up to 1-A in 1995, and those three years were from 2002-2004 in the Sun Belt, then we fell back down again, recruits damn well care about that.

If that's the case, though (and I'm not arguing that it isn't), then the idea that "Mac just has to get his guys" seems a little far-fetched. Following this logic:

We can't win until Mac gets his recruits in here.

We can't recruit better because we haven't won in forever.

UNT90 · December 10, 2012

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses.

That's all we ever do here.

Texas St. and UTSA haven't PLAYED at the FBS level, much less won at that level.

Justify it all you want, but if recruiting doesn't pick up SUBSTANTIALLY in the next several months, we will and should be looking for a coach again in 2014.

Just get players in here! With Apogee and the athletic complex, you have more to offer than any other coach in UNT's history!!

untjim1995 · December 10, 2012

If that's the case, though (and I'm not arguing that it isn't), then the idea that "Mac just has to get his guys" seems a little far-fetched. Following this logic:

We can't win until Mac gets his recruits in here.
We can't recruit better because we haven't won in forever.

Its sort of maddening, isn't it? We'll call it the 4-year UNT Tenure Rule. Only Dickey did enough to warrant an extension since we moved up in 1995 and that was how he ended up here from 1998 thru 2006. As we all know, if that 2001 team hadn't turned it on in SBC play, we would've changed coaches then, too, after his 4th year. Simon was here from 1994 -1997, Dodge was here from 2007-2010, and now McCarney. 4 years gives the AD the ability to buy out a 5th year at modest cost to the university if they need to, which seems to be what we do here in Denton. Its almost like we hire HFCs in the same vein that we vote in presidents.

untjim1995 · December 10, 2012

Excuses, Excuses, Excuses.

That's all we ever do here.

Texas St. and UTSA haven't PLAYED at the FBS level, much less won at that level.

Justify it all you want, but if recruiting doesn't pick up SUBSTANTIALLY in the next several months, we will and should be looking for a coach again in 2014.

Just get players in here! With Apogee and the athletic complex, you have more to offer than any other coach in UNT's history!!

UNT90--I'm really not trying to make excuses for our piss-poor existence in football right now. I'm just trying to figure out some reasons as to why recruits would choose to go somewhere else over coming here. I hate it too and it embarrasses me to no end.

Another area of embarrassment that I know you and I agree about is the awful OOC home scheduling we see here, year-in and year-out. When we are selling recruits on big home games against SMU and Army, while UTSA gets Oklahoma State down for a game (as well as Baylor and Arizona State), its deflating to say the least. Same thing goes for Texas State getting a home game against Texas Tech last year. I will never understand how we can only get Texas Southern, Idaho, Ball State, SMU (sorry, they don't register to me as a big game other than being a local rival), and Army here for OOC games while others are getting Baylor, OSU, and Tech for home opponents. I know that we played K-State in Fouts to close out the building, but we played up there like 5 times in the time that they played here once. There is no reason whatsoever that we shouldnt be able to get a home game against better names. If Tulsa and UTEP can figure out a way to play Oklahoma at home, then we should be able to find a way to play a Nebraska or Colorado or Mizzou here. Hell, NMSU hosted BYU this year, if I remember correctly. And we schedule freakin' Texas Southern as the only home OOC game--what a message you send out to others (including recruits) about your program.

UNT90 · December 10, 2012

Its sort of maddening, isn't it? We'll call it the 4-year UNT Tenure Rule. Only Dickey did enough to warrant an extension since we moved up in 1995 and that was how he ended up here from 1998 thru 2006. As we all know, if that 2001 team hadn't turned it on in SBC play, we would've changed coaches then, too, after his 4th year. Simon was here from 1994 -1997, Dodge was here from 2007-2010, and now McCarney. 4 years gives the AD the ability to buy out a 5th year at modest cost to the university if they need to, which seems to be what we do here in Denton. Its almost like we hire HFCs in the same vein that we vote in presidents.

UNT will never be successful as long as they are more concerned about a buy out than what is happening in the football program. One of the biggest reasons we are what we are. Dodge's fourth year was a crime and was only done because the university didn't want to buy out the remaining 2 years.

And it will/has end up costing UNT in the long run.

UNT90 · December 10, 2012

Another area of embarrassment that I know you and I agree about is the awful OOC home scheduling we see here, year-in and year-out. When we are selling recruits on big home games against SMU and Army, while UTSA gets Oklahoma State down for a game (as well as Baylor and Arizona State), its deflating to say the least. Same thing goes for Texas State getting a home game against Texas Tech last year. I will never understand how we can only get Texas Southern, Idaho, Ball State, SMU (sorry, they don't register to me as a big game other than being a local rival), and Army here for OOC games while others are getting Baylor, OSU, and Tech for home opponents. I know that we played K-State in Fouts to close out the building, but we played up there like 5 times in the time that they played here once. There is no reason whatsoever that we shouldnt be able to get a home game against better names. If Tulsa and UTEP can figure out a way to play Oklahoma at home, then we should be able to find a way to play a Nebraska or Colorado or Mizzou here. Hell, NMSU hosted BYU this year, if I remember correctly. And we schedule freakin' Texas Southern as the only home OOC game--what a message you send out to others (including recruits) about your program.

Too busy whoring ourselves out to Iowa. We will have another 5 game home schedule in the next 4 years. mark it down. Either that, or another Texas Southern home game because we have contracted ourselves into a position of having no openings for a return game until about 2019. We continue to whore ourselves out, even though we were told that a new stadium would end the whoring.

Scheduling is one iof the worst things this AD does.

GrandGreen · December 10, 2012

I'm not disagreeing with much of what you posted. I was just opining on why recruits are choosing podunk towns over the wonderful nirvana known as Denton. And I do call BS on the history part not swaying recruits--when you can only show recruits that you have had three winning seasons as a FBS program since we moved back up to 1-A in 1995, and those three years were from 2002-2004 in the Sun Belt, then we fell back down again, recruits damn well care about that. I'm not saying any SBC team SHOULD be better than us, but I'm just trying to find reasons why someone else would choose to go to one of those other schools. I just think this new SBCUSA we are about to join will prove yet again that what we face here, even with 36k students in a "hotbed" of football recruiting, is still a very daunting uphill fight. I guess I'm the Doubting Thomas here, but until we see our program beat these "podunk schools" on a consistent basis, I'm going to chalk it up to the fact that this university and its community that surrounds it have failed miserably at supporting its athletic teams, while being completely supportive of its arts and education programs. The coaches at ALL of the schools we recruit against tell recruits and their families the same thing. The good news is that if Coach Mac is really the guy to change this, like his mentor Hayden Fry did in the 70s, we will know it over the next two seasons. If not, its back to the beginning again.

Your points are valid to an extent, the problem is NT's peers have just as many if not more issues and they are moving forward at a better pace than NT. I didn't call any team Podunk or claim Denton is the best college town ever.

When referring to football history, I think recruits think in terms of a few years not decades. What NT has lacked since re-entering the FB division is a head football coach that can win and excite the masses. Simon was hired mostly based on the belief that he being one of a couple of black hc in the highest level of the NCAA, he could recruit. Didn't happen. I have no idea why DD was hired other than he had an in with Helwig. He was a competent on field coach and off one exceptional recruiting year ruled the early Belt. Unfortunately, DD was a pr disaster off the field and I think in the end hurt the program more than he helped it. No need to go into Dodge. Now McCarney may be the answer but early returns both on the field and recruiting are not that encouraging.

I hope NT continues to support all its educational programs, I think that is the purpose of an University, but I don't see how that effects athletics at all. There is not one team in the new CUSA or the Belt that has any significant advantages over NT. The closest is UTSA that has a huge market with little competition and a newness to get fired up about. Rice, UTEP, La Tech, Tulsa, USM, MTSU, FAU, FIU, Marshall, Old Dominion, Charlotte, UAB and UTSA; not exactly a juggernaut of a conference. NT has the resources to be very successful in this league from day one, there are no valid excuses for failure.

emmitt01 · December 10, 2012

IF I am to buy the argument that DFW kids won't come here because they want to get away from home then where is the emphasis on the SA, Austin, Houston, or west Texas areas? Surely the kids from those areas are equally eager to "get some space". Or is this a uniquely NT phenomenon.

And Lifer, per usual, let's not try to bastardize others' position to make a point. NOBODY expacts us to bring in 5,4 or 3 star kids exclusively. But we ALL wonder why the 2 star kids with offers from multiple FBS programs are somehow beyond the realm of expectation. You say that being called an apologist doesn't bother you...yet I guarantee you'll have a reply to this post. Why? Because you can't let a lil' ol' Officer getthe last word. (And just out of curiosity what is your "title"? Do you prefer janitor or sanitation engineer?). I'll await with baited breath your inevitable retort...since whatI say has no effect on you. Get that last word in...

Harry · December 11, 2012

:offtopic:

Trey White · December 14, 2012

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/ncfrecruiting/midlands/post?id=7880 Pretty cool article from Shawn McKinney

UNT Mean Green · December 14, 2012

Good article on McKinney. Glad he is coming here. I am sure with the help of Wintrich he will get to the desired playing weight and hopefully be an excellent anchor to what should be a good offensive line for Berglund and Co.

UNTLifer · December 17, 2012

Apologist

4 year old.

You are a police officer, much different from a coach, or a teacher, or a multitude of other professions. Honestly, I'm not sure why you decided to attack my views, other than they don't always agree with your's. I am the son of a former coach and know what it is like to see someone take over a struggling program without many traditions, etc... and the time it can take to see the success they work so hard to attain.

I don't feel the need to place my professional position(s) on this site, but I will say that I am an officer, on a national level, for my company and am the CEO/GM of the facility I am responsible for on a daily basis. I have worked hard and also earned these positions, much like you have to earn yours. The difference is, I don't require those that interact with me to address me by my title or correct them should they address me by a title that isn't exactly correct. I hope that clarifies it for you officer.

Edited December 17, 2012 by UNTLifer