Armstrong Gives Up Defending Accusations: Stripped Of Titles

[outoftown]

I understand your feelings.

I have a question. If everyone is doping, and one guy is tested much more than everyone else, yet tests clean every time (even though the French were clearly out to get him any way they could because they hated that the American kept winning their race year after year), and then, almost 10 years after his retirement, an investigation starts because of what admitted cheaters say and nothing else, do you really think the USADA has no agenda?

I would rather they be attempting to catch competitors in the sport NOW.

Isn't that what they are suppose to do?

Of course USADA has an agenda. We may debate over whether that should be the case or not, but I think we can agree that we would like cheaters to be caught. We can sadly also say that certain sports are particularly affected, because the advantage of doping is particularly big. Cycling is no doubt among the most doping soaked thorugh sports there is, even most cycling fans would agree.

I would also love them to be caught now, but the truth is, that tests take often some time to catch up, and it is often difficult to prove something at the time. I do thus want people to know that it will eventually be caught and all samples are kept, so they think twice before lying

By this logic, we must conclude that Hank Aaron/Willie Mays/et al. were doping... Hang on, there's an alien at my door.

I guess that in your logical world all Al Capone ever did was put some wrong numbers on his tax return.

Besides: It is not for nothing that you have chosen legendary baseball players from times where training regimes, differed markedly more between athletes than today (thus allowing for mor variability at the top), and leet us not forget talk about doctored bats spit balls, etc. additionally it was harder to copy your idols style, seeing even coaches did not have VCRs then... on the other hand of those great home run hitters of the last decade how many were doped? And I would say that Baseball actually profits less from doping than cycling, because there is actully more technique involved. Cyling is almost pure muscle power and lungs. If you play tennis or golf your doping advantage will be much smaller than if you cycle (in percent of your final result).

So then do you just feel that every elite athlete is in some way artificially enhanced? What a horribly pessimistic and dis-illusioned outlook you have on life...I feel quite sorry for you. In you mind, apparently, Usain Bolt is a doper because Jamaica doesn't follow him around, go through his trash and make him pee in a cup on his way to his morning coffee, a dinner date or 2 minutes after someone made him pee in a cup...all the tests done by the IOC and whatever track and field's governing body may be aren't enough, right? Let's just ignore that a 6'5" dude has quick twitch muscles normally not seen in someone his size.

Lance Armstrong has for the past decade basically had to make sure he's well-hydrated 24/7 in case some dude insisted he join him in the nearest men's room stall to fill up a cup. And every time it's come up clean. Some how to you that means he's just cheating better...not that he might just have a freak's lung capacity and, oh...the motivation of realizing that fighting through cancer and having a ball lopped off is a whole hell of a lot tougher than winning a stupid bike race? You'd believe the testimony of those already caught or those who don't want their names tarnished the same way Lance's has over science? Sad, man. You probably shouldn't even watch sports any more.

Yes I am rather pessimistic. Call me a non-believer. In most of those sports that demand 1 physical attribute only -like cycling or 100 meters, we eventually hear about doping by the very best... I mean you know that justin gatlin got back to sprinting after a ban, you heard of Carl Lewis, Ben Johnson, Maurice Greene, Marion Jones.... those were all once the fastest wo/men in the field.. because they were so much faster than all the other athletes their efforts seemed impossible without doping at the time, ... and it turned out they were impossible without it.

I agree that bolt seems to have particular anatomical physics and we do not know if his peculiar fast muscle built up is giving him this edge in natural ways. sadly enough we will never know, as in his case the tests do indeed mean little. Becuase he can go back to Jamaika whenever he has preparation time and know that during that time he will not be tested he might use that time to train under doping. This is a serious advantage, as it means you regenerate quicker and can go a higher training rythm. It is actually that higher training rythm that will be an advantage, as you stop doping in the months before going to copetitions, so no trace of the original doping is still in your blood. that is why continous doping tests are this important.

Edited August 24, 2012 by outoftown

[cwb]

It's a witch hunt. Plain and simple. You can say that his stopping to fight these charges is an admission of guilt, but with everything he's done, how many tests he's had to undergo, I'd be tired of it too. He's got a wife and five kids and probably doesnt want to spend his entire life peeing in a cup at every function he goes to.

He had a 32-34 resting heart rate and a 201 bpm. That's unheard of. He trained crazy hard, and deserved it. Yeah he's a douche, but he worked his ass off- no different than Bolt, Jordan, or other legendary athletes.

By the way, lets remember who is on this witch hunt- the IOC and USADA, two of the most corrupt international organizations around. Other than the UN.

Don't have the numbers, but his VO2 test was off the charts (yes he tests well) and I vaguely remember hearing that his body produced far less lactic acid than most. That alone can allow one to push through at high heart rates. Lactic acid is what causes the burn and eventual shut down of the muscles when at a high level of exertion.

Not defending him, but on a level playing field freaks like him and Miguel Indurain (rumored 28 bpm resting HR) are hard to beat.

As far as cycling and dope, Patrick O'Grady's cartoon once in Velonews summed it up. One of the cyclists in line for a drug test said "You gotta be high to do this $hit."

Edit: Greenminer beat me to the VO2 max. Kudos miner.

Edited August 24, 2012 by cwb

[meanJewGreen]

Because this is the GMG board... may I also point out that this witch hunt was led by another SMU dude on a power trip...

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/travis-tygart/5/1b5/b38 - Tygart's Linkedin Bio

[Grant.UNT]

The USADA has no authority to strip him of his titles. The Tour stripping him would open up barrel of worms like no other... He'll keep is titles and fade away into the background of sports.

perfect quote from the "Junes". you should cite your source. hahahahaha jk...kinda

[yyz28]

Somehow the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty has been lost in this case.

[CMJ]

Look, I really do feel that if that many former colleagues and teammates are adamant about Armstrong doping and can corroborate each others' stories, then an actual positive rest result is just icing on the cake. Especially since we know how good some of these athletes are at beating tests. Barry Bonds still never had a positive drug test from what I recall, and yet everyone is sure he was a rampant POD user because of the mountain of other evidence against him.

I mean we can convict murderers based on testimony without actually having the weapon or DNA evidence.

[Green P1]

Look, I really do feel that if that many former colleagues and teammates are adamant about Armstrong doping and can corroborate each others' stories, then an actual positive rest result is just icing on the cake. Especially since we know how good some of these athletes are at beating tests. Barry Bonds still never had a positive drug test from what I recall, and yet everyone is sure he was a rampant POD user because of the mountain of other evidence against him.

I mean we can convict murderers based on testimony without actually having the weapon or DNA evidence.

Exactly right. Barry Bonds = Lance Armstrong... just without the feel good story and with one extra testicle.

[UNT Five&Dime]

Some people just don't want to admit they got suckered into buying some stupid little yellow bracelet.

[greenminer]

I think another way to look at this is to step into Lance's shoes and ask yourself, "What exactly is it that the USADA needs to see to get them off my back?"

If he honestly can't provide an answer because he thinks no matter what they will always pursue, despite passing all of these tests, then you have to throw your hands in the air at it.

Can someone clarify if or if not the USADA has the authority to strip the titles? I didn't think so, but all the clippings are implying otherwise.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/usada-strips-lance-armstrongs-titles-bans-him-from-cycling/2012/08/24/d6f7d382-ee04-11e1-afd6-f55f84bc0c41_story.html

[Monkeypox]

Lance Armstrong doping has been the worst kept secret since Clay Aiken's sexuality. As soon as people left the team, they got caught doping. Did they decide all of the sudden to start doping, or were they simply afforded protection under Armstrong's big happy yellow feelgood umbrella? Armstrong gave it up once it was clear that arbitration would go forward and the testimony of guys like Hincapie would go public, a proceeding that he tried to block by suing the agency. THAT'S the point at which he stopped the fight. Now he gets to keep his righteous indignation, and doesn't have to refute the specific testimony of his accusers. This way he keeps that testimony out of the press.

Yes, he's never tested positive. Neither did Barry Bonds. Neither did Marion Jones. Neither did Basso or Ullrich and a slew of other proven dopers. It's not a coincidence that as the anti-doping orgs have started showing their teeth, the performances in these sports have suffered. Cycling's always been dirty, though. And having been in Austin during some of the height of the Lance Armstrong era and being around the guy, good riddance.

[GreenFlag]

I believe he cheated, but this reeks of vendetta. The judge who dismissed Armstrong's case against the USADA said "(USADA) conduct raises serious questions about whether its real interest in charging Armstrong is to combat doping, or if it is acting according to less noble motives.”

The USADA is funded by the US government as well as other entities. This is a huge waste of my taxpayer dollars - please see Kenneth Starr. What did they acomplish besides wasting my money? Do cyclist cheat? Yes. Will cyclist continue to cheat? Yes. Did any of this improve the situation or solve a problem? No. Does this create jobs? No. Does this reform wallstreet? No. Does this improve healthcare? No.

Why are my taxpayer dollars funding this witch hunt? Why is a SMU educated attorney funded by me - using those funds to attack a private citizen?

[Green P1]

Lance Armstrong Lets Down Single Person Who Still Believed Him

[GreenFlag]

I think another way to look at this is to step into Lance's shoes and ask yourself, "What exactly is it that the USADA needs to see to get them off my back?"

If he honestly can't provide an answer because he thinks no matter what they will always pursue, despite passing all of these tests, then you have to throw your hands in the air at it.

Can someone clarify if or if not the USADA has the authority to strip the titles? I didn't think so, but all the clippings are implying otherwise.

http://www.washingto...0c41_story.html

They don't have the authority. Go to SI.com and search USADA and there are numerous articles on the subject. I read a good article about if they stripped him of his titles and the long list of guys that finished behind him that have already been proven guilty of doping.

[UNT90]

What's so funny is that doping in cycling is like having your car 1/30th of an inch too low in NASCAR racing. Everyone does it, but it sucks to get caught.

Armtrong's testing would be like Dale Jr. having his car measured 8 times a race while every other person only had to go through it once, still coming out clean, and then NASCAR going after him 10 years after retirement because some of his crew members went to work for an opposing team, got caught lowering the car, and then said he lowered the car, too.

Stupid and a waste of time.

Edited August 24, 2012 by UNT90

[outoftown]

Lance Armstrong doping has been the worst kept secret since Clay Aiken's sexuality. As soon as people left the team, they got caught doping. Did they decide all of the sudden to start doping, or were they simply afforded protection under Armstrong's big happy yellow feelgood umbrella? Armstrong gave it up once it was clear that arbitration would go forward and the testimony of guys like Hincapie would go public, a proceeding that he tried to block by suing the agency. THAT'S the point at which he stopped the fight. Now he gets to keep his righteous indignation, and doesn't have to refute the specific testimony of his accusers. This way he keeps that testimony out of the press.

Yes, he's never tested positive. Neither did Barry Bonds. Neither did Marion Jones. Neither did Basso or Ullrich and a slew of other proven dopers. It's not a coincidence that as the anti-doping orgs have started showing their teeth, the performances in these sports have suffered. Cycling's always been dirty, though. And having been in Austin during some of the height of the Lance Armstrong era and being around the guy, good riddance.

this

[Rudy]

Somehow the concept of innocent until PROVEN guilty has been lost in this case.

Just THIS case?

[UNT90]

Look, I really do feel that if that many former colleagues and teammates are adamant about Armstrong doping and can corroborate each others' stories, then an actual positive rest result is just icing on the cake. Especially since we know how good some of these athletes are at beating tests. Barry Bonds still never had a positive drug test from what I recall, and yet everyone is sure he was a rampant POD user because of the mountain of other evidence against him.

I mean we can convict murderers based on testimony without actually having the weapon or DNA evidence.

Colleagues and teammates who are providing tesimony AFTER being caught and most likely in exchange for leniency on their own doping charge.

Change your last sentence to "we can convict murderers based on testimony of inmates cutting a deal to get out of jail, and when all DNA examined from the scene (500 urine samples) says the guy didn't do it." and see how much sense it makes.

Edited August 25, 2012 by UNT90

[mattmartin817]

http://laf.livestrong.org/site/TR/Challenge/Challenge?px=5638649&pg=personal&fr_id=1182

Soooo would this be the right forum to throw this out there?

[mattmartin817]

Dumb.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8348822/lance-armstrong-not-allowed-run-chicago-marathon

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Lance and Barry Bonds are both frauds. There. I said it.

I'm happy Lance raises money for cancer. His cheating did some good. Bonds...just self-serving.

[UNTFan23]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sports/cycling/how-lance-armstrong-beat-cyclings-drug-tests.html?pagewanted=all

This story does a good job outlining how Lance Armstrong got around the testing for years. Very elaborate.

[Grant.UNT]

I still think he'a a badass! Furthermore, I like him more than Barry Bonds. I think he should keep all his Tour vitories, and barry Bonds she never be allowed to even visit the baseball HOF.

How's that for a Hot Sports Opinion!!

[outoftown]

Surprised noone reopened this thread this week

[FirefightnRick]

I feel like a dumbass supporting and defending him. Of course, the way this week is going nothing surprises me any more.

Rick

[Quoner]

I feel like a dumbass supporting and defending him. Of course, the way this week is going nothing surprises me any more.

Rick

It really is the perfect time to give up on everything. And hey, he had a heck of a machine and a cause around him. I don't think anyone can be faulted too much for sticking with him and the real issue for me is how he treated/crushed people to preserve himself.