sanctions against penn state

UNTeagle88 · July 23, 2012

The sanctions were released today at 9 am.

The fines we're at 60,000,000 dollars

penn state has a 4 year bowl ban

for the records they have to vacate all wins from 1998 through 2011

And lastly, they will be on probation for 5 years.

greenjoe · July 23, 2012

This means Joe Paterno is not the winningest major college coach. But he really is. The record book will be changed, but the palyers, opponents and fans will know which team won which game.

Also, fans will still be able to go to a ball game on saturday afternoon just like always. No bowl trips this year, but, maybe they wern't going to a bowl game anyway.

Sorry. If Southern Meth gets the death penalty for breaking NCAA rules, then Penn State should get the death penalty for breaking criminal laws.

I'm proud of the Mean Green

Edited July 23, 2012 by greenjoe

The Fake Lonnie Finch · July 23, 2012

I don't know, this is pretty bad. With their two year bowl and scholarship ban, OU sank into mediocrity and were no longer selling out games by the time Bob Stoops got there.

Here's the cycle:

(1) You are not in the postseason bowl picture, so kids being recruited don't see you as relevant.

(2) You have limited scholarships, the inability to sell post seasons...and other coaches on the road telling the recruits, "The only bowl games you'll see at Penn State will be on TV."

(3) #1 and #2 x 4

The two years OU served held the program back for longer than a decade, ended their longtime sellouts, and made them "just another school" to recruits. I think twice from 1989 to 1999 - 11 seasons, OU posted as many as nine wins.

It will be much worse for Penn State because they'll have to go twice as long as OU did without bowl, and twice as long with reduced scholarships.

Basically, Penn State's recruits for the next few years will only be Penn State fans from childhood or kids who are borderline cases. OU ended up having to gamble and take on lesser talent just to get bodies on their roster in the early 90s.

At schools like OU and Penn State, 11 years is a long time to be non-competitive. It will be longer for Penn State. Their football tradition doesn't sniff OU's. It's a big tradition, yes, but not nearly as big as Oklahoma's had been in terms of national titles, Heisman's, etc.

Edited July 23, 2012 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

keith · July 23, 2012

Seems more like a slap on the wrist to me.

$60,000,000 - about 1 year's revenue from the football program according to some radio reports. Will be easily made up by alumni donations so no real harm. Should have been $60M for every year of the cover-up IMHO if they really wanted to send a message.

Four year bowl ban - Not going to a bowl game during a down year (or years) did not hurt PSU in the past and it won't hurt over the next four years.

Vacating records, like removing the statue, is largely symbolic and really does not do anything.

Probation for five years - not sure what this really does. Is this just saying to PSU that you need to behave for the next 5 years or we'll slap the other wrist?

I thought they had to reduce scholarships as well, but have not heard the specific details on this.

Penn State got off easy in my opinion.

meangreendork · July 23, 2012

This means Joe Paterno is not the winningest major college coach. But he really is. The record book will be changed, but the palyers, opponents and fans will know which team won which game.

This is a matter of debate. Had the story come out when it should have, it may have affected alumni donations, sponsorships and recruiting. Some of the key coaches or players may not have been at those games to win.

GoMeanGreen1999 · July 23, 2012

I don't know, this is pretty bad. With their two year bowl and scholarship ban, OU sank into mediocrity and were no longer selling out games by the time Bob Stoops got there.

Here's the cycle:
(1) You are not in the postseason bowl picture, so kids being recruited don't see you as relevant.
(2) You have limited scholarships, the inability to sell post seasons...and other coaches on the road telling the recruits, "The only bowl games you'll see at Penn State will be on TV."
(3) #1 and #2 x 4

The two years OU served held the program back for longer than a decade, ended their longtime sellouts, and made them "just another school" to recruits. I think twice from 1989 to 1999 - 11 seasons, OU posted as many as nine wins.

It will be much worse for Penn State because they'll have to go twice as long as OU did without bowl, and twice as long with reduced scholarships.

Basically, Penn State's recruits for the next few years will only be Penn State fans from childhood or kids who are borderline cases. OU ended up having to gamble and take on lesser talent just to get bodies on their roster in the early 90s.

At schools like OU and Penn State, 11 years is a long time to be non-competitive. It will be longer for Penn State. Their football tradition doesn't sniff OU's. It's a big tradition, yes, but not nearly as big as Oklahoma's had been in terms of national titles, Heisman's, etc.

Great comparison. PSU goes from 25 to 15 scholarships a year is huge. That's the equivalent of going two seasons without offering scholarships. Add to that no bowls. I would say that's pretty significant.

UNT90 · July 23, 2012

At this point, I am glad UNT football is in a smaller conference (CUSA) without a win at all cost culture that is so prevelant at the OUs and UTs of the world.

I wouldn't even mind seeing us seperate from the "Big boys" at this point. If this is what major college athletics is about, I'm very happy rooting for a "mid major" football team.

NorthTexan95 · July 23, 2012

These punishments are tough but pretty typical (except maybe for the large fine). I agree with Keith above that vacating wins is merely symbolic and to apease the crying masses. I hate it when the NCAA changes games already played. I see no reason to go back and change historical records.

UNT90 · July 23, 2012

These punishments are tough but pretty typical (except maybe for the large fine). I agree with Keith above that vacating wins is merely symbolic and to apease the crying masses. I hate it when the NCAA changes games already played. I see no reason to go back and change historical records.

You literally can't change history. Forfeiting games means nothing to anyone. People will still talk about the great win over Michigan or Ohio St. or whoever. They will never stop and say "but wait, we acttually lost that game because of forfeit." SO dumb, and just done, in my opinion, so that the NCAA could erase JoePa as the all-time record holder in wins (which also doesn't matter to the college football fan, as JoePa will still be recognized as such).

The Fake Lonnie Finch · July 23, 2012

Seems more like a slap on the wrist to me.

$60,000,000 - about 1 year's revenue from the football program according to some radio reports. Will be easily made up by alumni donations so no real harm. Should have been $60M for every year of the cover-up IMHO if they really wanted to send a message.

Four year bowl ban - Not going to a bowl game during a down year (or years) did not hurt PSU in the past and it won't hurt over the next four years.

Vacating records, like removing the statue, is largely symbolic and really does not do anything.

Probation for five years - not sure what this really does. Is this just saying to PSU that you need to behave for the next 5 years or we'll slap the other wrist?

I thought they had to reduce scholarships as well, but have not heard the specific details on this.

Penn State got off easy in my opinion.

Keith, I think maybe all of you who think a four year bowl ban and scholarship reduction as no big deal should talk to Coach McCarney. In a conference like the Big Ten, it will sink them and fast.

Also, their revenue may have been $60 million, but their net on that was below $15 million. You don't just collect money; there are bills to pay. Salaries, travel expenses, maintenance of facilities and equipment, etc.

They'll be pounded on the recruiting trail, which is the lifeblood of the program. Big penalties have been devastating to the schools to which they were given. SMU was destroyed. OU was reduced to five consecutive non-winning seasons for the first time in its history in the mid to late 90s.

Once your scholarships are reduced for a couple of years, it take a long time to build back up to 85. Four years? It'll take them longer than it took OU to get competitive again. Your margin for error is very thin once your scholarships are reduced. Your depth is destoyed anyway, then compounded if even just a few kids don't pan out.

What makes this worse than a "Death Penalty" is that Penn State will have to watch what OU fans watched for over a decade - losses to schools that never before had a prayer of a chance to beat them. It will be death by a thousand cuts.

During OU's penalty-induced decline:

First loss to Oklahoma State since 1976

First loss to Iowa State since 1961

First loss to Kansas since 1983

First loss to Kansas State since 1970

First loss to Colorado since since 1976

First loss to Missouri since 1983

Home losses to a Tulsa program that went 4-7 for the year, and a TCU squad that finished 4-7 as well..getting beat, at home, by bad teams from lesser conferences.

Against main conference rivals, before sanctions:

-Had beaten Nebraska four of last five, and 14 of prior 18 - didn't beat Nebraska again until 2000.

-Had beaten Colorado 12 seasons in a row, and 19 of prior 22, hadn't loss back-to-back seasons since 1965 and 1966 - went 0-8-1 versus the Buffs from 1989 to 1999; didn't beat them again until 2002.

-Had beaten Kansas State 22 seasons in a row, hadn't lost back-to-back since 1969 and 1970 - lost five in a row, didn't beat them again until 2000.

-Had beaten Oklahoma State 15 seasons in a row, hadn't lost back-to-back since 1965 and 1966 - went 3-3-1 in mid 90s versus OSU, and 5-5-1 from 1992 to 2002, easily their worst stretch in the program's history.

-Had beaten Kansas seven seasons in a row and hadn't lost back-to-back since 1929 and 1930 - lost three in a row 1995-1997, went 2-4 from 1992 to 1997, didn't beat them again until 2000.

-Had beaten Missouri 12 times in a row, hadn't lost to them since 1983.

-Had not lost to Iowa State for 28 seasons in a row (one tie in 1981) - lost, at home, in 1990, the second year of sanctions.

-Against hated border rival Texas, they had won four in a row and tied another in the five seasons prior to the beginning of their sanctions in 1989. They had an 11-5-2 record versus Texas from 1971 to 1988. With the onset of sanctions, Texas won the next four consecutive games and and eight of the next 11. From 1989 to 1999, OU was 2-8-1 versus Texas...with one of those winning coming in overtime.

Remember, OU had played for the national title following the 1987 season, and won 9 in 1988 during a "rebuilding" year. Within two years, schools like Iowa State were getting over on them at home!

Now, this is what havoc was wreaked on the Oklahoma program from a two year bowl and scholarship ban. Penn State is being punished for twice a long.

To suppose, then, that Penn State has gotten a "slap on the wrist" is wholly laughable. Their adoring fans will watch them lose like never before, and to schools they normally dominated...and they will be beaten by bad out of conference schools as well.

Like OU in the 90s, they will likely go through a succession of head coach like never before as the fans get restless, believing that donning the Penn State uniform alone should be enough to cow opponents into defeat. It will be a long time, humbling experience for Penn State fans and the program. And, well deserved, I might add!

Edited July 23, 2012 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

Travis · July 23, 2012

Keith, I think maybe all of you who think a four year bowl ban and scholarship reduction as no big deal should talk to Coach McCarney. In a conference like the Big Ten, it will sink them and fast.

Also, their revenue may have been $60 million, but their net on that was below $15 million. You don't just collect money; there are bills to pay. Salaries, travel expenses, maintenance of facilities and equipment, etc.

They'll be pounded on the recruiting trail, which is the lifeblood of the program. Big penalties have been devastating to the schools to which they were given. SMU was destroyed. OU was reduced to five consecutive non-winning seasons for the first time in its history in the mid to late 90s.

Once your scholarships are reduced for a couple of years, it take a long time to build back up to 85. Four years? It'll take them longer than it took OU to get competitive again. Your margin for error is very thin once your scholarships are reduced. Your depth is destoyed anyway, then compounded if even just a few kids don't pan out.

What makes this worse than a "Death Penalty" is that Penn State will have to watch what OU fans watched for over a decade - losses to schools that never before had a prayer of a chance to beat them. It will be death by a thousand cuts.

During OU's penalty-induced decline:
First loss to Oklahoma State since 1976
First loss to Iowa State since 1961
First loss to Kansas since 1983
First loss to Kansas State since 1970
First loss to Colorado since since 1976
First loss to Missouri since 1983
Home losses to a Tulsa program that went 4-7 for the year, and a TCU squad that finished 4-7 as well..getting beat, at home, by bad teams from lesser conferences.

Against main conference rivals, before sanctions:

-Had beaten Nebraska four of last five, and 14 of prior 18 - didn't beat Nebraska again until 2000.
-Had beaten Colorado 12 seasons in a row, and 19 of prior 22, hadn't loss back-to-back seasons since 1965 and 1966 - went 0-8-1 versus the Buffs from 1989 to 1999; didn't beat them again until 2002.
-Had beaten Kansas State 22 seasons in a row, hadn't lost back-to-back since 1969 and 1970 - lost five in a row, didn't beat them again until 2000.
-Had beaten Oklahoma State 15 seasons in a row, hadn't lost back-to-back since 1965 and 1966 - went 3-3-1 in mid 90s versus OSU, and 5-5-1 from 1992 to 2002, easily their worst stretch in the program's history.
-Had beaten Kansas seven seasons in a row and hadn't lost back-to-back since 1929 and 1930 - lost three in a row 1995-1997, went 2-4 from 1992 to 1997, didn't beat them again until 2000.
-Had beaten Missouri 12 times in a row, hadn't lost to them since 1983.
-Had not lost to Iowa State for 28 seasons in a row (one tie in 1981) - lost, at home, in 1990, the second year of sanctions.

-Against hated border rival Texas, they had won four in a row and tied another in the five seasons prior to the beginning of their sanctions in 1989. They had an 11-5-2 record versus Texas from 1971 to 1988. With the onset of sanctions, Texas won the next four consecutive games and and eight of the next 11. From 1989 to 1999, OU was 2-8-1 versus Texas...with one of those winning coming in overtime.

Remember, OU had played for the national title following the 1987 season, and won 9 in 1988 during a "rebuilding" year. Within two years, schools like Iowa State were getting over on them at home!

Now, this is what havoc was wreaked on the Oklahoma program from a two year bowl and scholarship ban. Penn State is being punished for twice a long.

To suppose, then, that Penn State has gotten a "slap on the wrist" is wholly laughable. Their adoring fans will watch them lose like never before, and to schools they normally dominated...and they will be beaten by bad out of conference schools as well.

Like OU in the 90s, they will likely go through a succession of head coach like never before as the fans get restless, believing that donning the Penn State uniform alone should be enough to cow opponents into defeat. It will be a long time, humbling experience for Penn State fans and the program. And, well deserved, I might add!

So what you are saying is, we should schedule them immediately?

Harry · July 23, 2012

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recruiting/football/story/_/id/8191011/penn-state-blown-away-sanctions

The Fake Lonnie Finch · July 23, 2012

So what you are saying is, we should schedule them immediately?

Yes! For like 10 years in row! Believe me, I went to law school at Tulsa, and those folks still talked about beating OU in 1996. It's didn't matter that OU was bad. It didn't matter that they were only 4-7 that season overall. All that mattered was that it was OU and they beat them...in Norman!

Penn State fans will experience the same thing OU fans did for years. Schools like the Tulsas and TCUs of the world will roll into Happy Valley and humiliate them. Indiana will no longer be a gimme.

Monkeypox · July 23, 2012

This IS a tough penalty, and appropriately so. That might be the first time I've said that about the NCAA>

Harry · July 23, 2012

Looks like the recruits are starting to drop.

http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/ncfrecruiting/midwest/post?id=3430&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fblog%2fncfrecruiting%2fmidwest%2fpost%3fid%3d3430

The Fake Lonnie Finch · July 23, 2012

Looks like the recruits are starting to drop.

http://insider.espn....st/post?id=3430

You can't expect kids that are great athletes to voluntarily forgo four years of postseason. I'm telling you, this will wipe out Penn State. Two years at OU was one thing. Kids they signed in 1989 could at least count on two bowl, maybe three if they redshirted a season.

This Penn State thing...there's nothing really to offer a kid now. No bowl games. No conference championships. Just football for the sake of football, Penn State for the sake of Penn State?

It won't sell to recruits, again, except maybe the die hard fans' kid who is, rarely, good enough to play college ball. Few people understand what Penn State has been hit with. I guarantee you, though, any coach in the business knows it's basically a walking death penalty.

It's allowing every rival to take shots at you on the field, and off the field in the living rooms of recruits - for four years. It's huge.

Harry · July 23, 2012

The biggest issue may be the fact that all recruited and current players can transfer anywhere at anytime...and even stay at Penn State for academic only... That combined with 4 years of scholarship restrictions that take 60% of every signing class away...plus the probation which makes it hard for them to bend the rules...this penalty IS worse than a 1-2 year death penalty in my mind. It will be 8-10 years before State can get back to where they were if ever.