UNT law school

Eastwood Eagle · June 28, 2012

Again, you are missing my point.

I'm not saying TTT an TTTT do not produce good attorneys. They don't produce good jobs. This is not an subjective thing on what makes an attorney good. Check out :http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/, they do a great job of pulling data from multiple sources.

It does not matter how great of a lawyer you may or not be, point is, graduating from a TTT or TTTT with out a very nice scholarship can turn in to a bad decision.

It does not matter if a handful of assistant district attorneys graduated from TexWes. 1. Most of them did not graduate in this economy and 2, this goes back to a previous point that you will not get the sought after jobs that allow you to repay your loan in a timely fashion.

You can find a TexWes grad who probably makes around market pay, and if you say to your self "that can be me" is pretty dangerous risk to take.

You can compare numbers directly from each schools websites if you would like:

TexWes

https://law.txwes.edu/Portals/0/docs/JD%20Profile%20Final%202011.pdf

UT

http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html'>http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html

UHLC

http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html'>http://www.utexas.edu/law/career/prospective/stats.html

Baylor and SMU have similar numbers as UHLC. Notice the % that have jobs employed by firms with 26-500 attorneys. These are the jobs that will allow someone not to be in debt for an extended amount of time.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

Eastwood Eagle · June 28, 2012

Law Schools are just like 4 year universities. They give you the tools, but it's up to the individual to hone those and succeed in their chosen profession. There are bad lawyers that attended Harvard Law and their are good lawyers that attended schools like Weslyan.

But if you can't get a job to hone those skills then what is the point? Or you if you are scraping by being an assistant DA, working in the public defenders office or doing DUI cases every day, all while being +100k in debt then you probably should not have went. Which is the reality for graduates of lower ranked schools, in this economy.

Weslyan has a 4 year, go at night program that attracts students with life experience. People who already have a job, but are looking to change professions or simply better their personal situation. These types are often much better prepared for the work place straight out of law school than the 24 or 25 year old who has basically done nothing but attend school their entire life.

Many schools have part time programs, what is the point here? Why would you waste money to go to law school unless you wanted to come out utilizing that law degree. Which goes back to my abovementioned point. There are not quality jobs to pay back these loans. Great, you are 35, had a career before law school, went to TexWes not what? You think big/mid law will hire you unless you are top of your class. Have fun waiting behind UT, SMU, Tech and Baylor in the DFW.

As far as the Dallas DA is concerned, if you look at both the Dallas and Tarrant County DA's offices, you will find a big percentage of the prosecutors with Weslyan law degrees. And they often beat the crap out of your UT law grads in court.

My UT law grads? What does that even mean? I don't go to UT law. But to argue TexWes law is a better bet than UT law is a complete joke. Further, you cite a place(s) where they get jobs. Why don't you cite big law jobs? What about mid sized law firms? Oh wait, you can't. TexWes places horrible in these positions.

I'm not trying to be a snob towards TexWes. It is just reality. My whole point of everything, and this will probably be my last post on this subject, is that going to a TTT or TTTT school is a MAJOR risk because the job market sucks. Even grads/students at UT, SMU, UHLC and Baylor are finding trouble once they graduate or trying to get a summer associates position.

And those four schools are far beyond TexWes, and even Texas Southern and South Texas College of Law when it comes to job prospects.

Again, those graduates may get jobs, just ones that will keep them in debt for a looooong time.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

GL2Greatness · June 28, 2012

As far as I know everything is still in place for UNT to open its law school. The A&M one however will be opening one year earlier than us in 2013 and we're opening doors in 2014. I'm sure TAMU had the idea that they wanted to open before us.

"everything" is in place except for two things.......the first and foremost thing is the actual funding to open......the legislature has declined to fund the law school the last few sessions and there will not be another opportunity to fund it again until 2013 when the next budget session takes place and there is zero guarantees it will be funded then

the second issue is there is no actual location to hold classes.....dallas is only donating a building and EXTERIOR renovations and a very small part of the interior renovations needed to keep the building from flooding and they have already welched on the 8 million needed to renovate the interior to keep it from flooding........the are only paying for the exterior part so far and then the building will need 46 million more in interior work to make it ready to hold classes

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/print-edition/2010/12/03/unt-law-building-awaiting-funds.html?page=all

dallas has started 8 million on the exterior to prevent the building from further falling apart, but they have welched on the 8 million in mechanical and interior work

and The State of Texas has only appropriated 5 million TOTAL so far over all the years for the law school and that was to hire deans and do studies and other BS......they have never allocated a dime for actual classroom space or infrastructure much less for faculty or operations

as of now the plan is to house the law school in the UCD building, but it will take 20 million in renovations for that as well and the article says that should have started by now, but I do not believe that it has.....there is also the issue of booting the programs that are UCD programs.......when unT purchased the UCD building they agreed to allow all universities that wished to have programs there continue to do so.....the THECB has very little actual power, but I believe there is a signed agreement in place with UTA and TAMU-C stating they can continue to use the UCD building for s long as they like as well as any other university that wishes to have classes there

there was actually a story in the TAMU-C student papaer about the possibility of being booted from the UCD along with UTA and actually along with unT-Denton as well (part of the Dr. B blowup), but as of now those classes are still there and I do not believe that any of those schools have actually made plans for an alternate location if they need one......and I am not sure the renovations on those two floors have started yet as well......and even if they have that is just more theft of money fron Denton students because The State of Texas as of now has not funded that and there is no guarantee they will fund them......so the "system" will have to cover that and since the dallas campus can't even afford to fund 100% of their new building that they built larger than needed without state funding and with the possibility that the state will NEVER cover those bonds that means that Denton campus students are covering bonds for a "calculated risk" and having to suffer from "belt tightening" for a building in south dallas and they may well be paying or soon paying for the renovations of the upper floors of the UCD for a law school that is not needed and that if opened will go to the dallas campus......and to top it off they paid to buy the building to start with and now their UCD programs may well get the boot

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2009/06/15/story11.html?page=all

ask yourself where do "internal funds" come from for a school with 2,000 part time students and who tightens their belt in a "system" that consist of a main campus of 36K students and a school with 2K 100% part timers and a D.O. school that is funded in an entirely different fashion.......hint it is not the TCOM students and it is not the dallas students

I think there will still be an angle for UNT in that it probably will be able to come in lower on tuition. I don't see A&M changing tuition downward from where it has been with Wesleyan even if given state funding (since Wesleyan's tuition is about on par with Houston and Texas and higher than Tech). It seems that will be where the big battle will be is in the funding, and I don't like being on the UNT side of that battle with a Higher Ed Board made up of Perry appointees. I think that ultimately TAMU Law will be going after a much different market than UNT, so perhaps they both can coexist (that is if there are enough students willing to sink money into a legal education with low employment prospects.)

how will unT be able to charge lower tuition......they are spending or will spend 20+ million for a temporary home and then spend 46 million for a dallas building they are not sure they will ever be able to move into.....law professors are paid pretty much the same at public and private schools......law library resources still cost the same.....the only difference between public and private schools is the VERY SMALL amount of state support that public law schools get and Texas does not fund public law schools at near the rate that they fund other higher ed programs......law schools have to be much more self sufficient and since TAMU will be public, they are paying 25 million + 2.5 million per year in rent, they are covering the buy in with private donations, and they will get the same amount of small formula funding that unT would get......that means that unT will be behind the curve and having a much larger amount of debt to cover immediately vs TAMU

also there is no "battle" with the THECB the THECB is pretty much powerless to stop anything dealing with higher ed.....in Texas it is the legislature that has 100% say so and control the THECB only gives recomendations and reports and serves to collect and audit information.....actual funding, approval or degree programs ect is either approved by the BOR and implemented with the university covering it or in the case of things like medical schools, pharamcy programs, law programs, vet programs and the like that have large start up cost or that will require large new formula funding every year it is the legislature that gives that the funding or the non-funding......if it was up to the THECB the unT law school would have been dead before it started because the THECB has clearly stated time and again it is not needed, there is no need for new legal education opportunity in Texas and if there ever was to be a need it would be in South Texas and even then it would be about 50+ million dollars cheaper right off the bat to increase enrollment at existing schools

the reason the unT law school has not opened is because The State of Texas has at least 2 times (maybe three) declined to fund it beyond the 5 million in "startup" cost they got in 2009 and since then they have funded it with ZERO which means it is dead in the water until such time as it is funded.....the THECB has no actual power to stop or start it or to get it funded......it was not the THECB that stopped TAMU from buying STCL it was the legislature as well

Waiting for GL2Greatness

howdy!

I look at this as a positive, perhaps it will light a fire under both UNT and more importantly The City of Dallas to get this project rolling. The bottomline is this, UNT Law in Dallas has a HUGE advantage in the fact that it is in the heart of one of the biggest and most powerful legal communities in the country. The resources that would bring (ie teachers, shared experiences, internships) alone make this 1 year opening advantage minimal. Second part - Wesleya&m is a private law school, very expensive and it will take more than a couple of years to readjust their operations to be public. My hope is this will only awaken UNT Law. There is no doubt that the legal community has suffered with the economic downturn but if the economy picks up again there will again be demand.

optimism is nice and all, but this will not light a fire under anyone.....dallas is broke, they have a new hotel to be worried about and a new 200 million dollar high rise with a death ray killing the museum next door that will not come close to breaking even that they will soon be on the hook for much less things they should actually be paying for

dallas already welched on half of the money needed for repairs on the old muny building and they will probably never come through witht hat money

a few miles difference from dallas to Fort Worth is not even remotely an issue.....top dallas law firms recruit nationally they are not suddenly going to take marginal students from a new law school just because it is down the street and many of the people running those schools have a vested interest in keeping THEIR law schools they graduated from looking good not throwing a bone to the cheap degree factory down the street.....their kids are going to those top schools not unT

law schools as much as ANY degree is based on reputation not location and it is a very closed club not looking to give a leg up to upstarts especially ones that have a goal of being "cheap" and for the common man and to graduate public service lawyers

it will be extremely difficult to recruit faculty from existing law schools where they have tenure and are established to a new law school especially at a time when law degrees are less than valuable from marginal and new schools......law faculty still cost the same public or private and TAMU will not have the start up cost associated with unT nor will they have the accrediation process to go through and possibly having to go through that TWICE as unT dallas gets accrediated and the possibility of facing reaccrediation for the law school based on that is faced (that is if the law school becomes close to opening before unT-dallas gets accrediated and that looks less and less likely)

not only will faculty have to be hired, legal journals will have to be started, student organizations, placement offices and on and on.....that will take much more than "we are in dallas and they are MILES away in Fort Worth to overcome" and you are pretending that TAMU does not have deep pockets ready to toss money at this immediately to get it established and improve the reputation......while unT struggles as a system to raise funds for anything and they have raised next to nothing for a law school in a "huge legal community" (mainly because that huge legal community knows the school is not needed and they are loyal to other places already and will continue to be)

aggies more than anyone will always be aggies even though they had to go to law school somewhere else......so when the chance comes they will be one of the few groups of lawyers with degrees from elsewhere that will be willing to throw cash and opportunities to their new law school and especially to graduates that have aggie undergrad degrees...that is part of the reason that TAMU is a top university and that is part of the reason they have the 25 million already lined up for this purchase....and more for the rent.....and more for other needed things

There's a huge assumption here that the THECB (Higher Education Coordinating Board) is actually going to approve this. The last time UNT tried to buy TWU Law and A&M tried to buy South Texas, it got shot down at that stage because the Attorney General essentially decided that public universities can't use taxpayer money to buy private schools. A&M's tried to contract around it - but I think it's pretty transparent.

We're also forgetting that there is an inter-system rivalry at play here - one which will play out at the THECB and in the legislature. It's an opening salvo in the biennial battle for money and influence at the legislature - and this makes it pretty clear the the lines are going to be A&M and UH vs. UT, UNT and TTU. No way that those three systems are going to let it happen without a fight, and the only reason UH is on board is because A&M didn't try to buy South Texas again.

UNTLaw is mostly unaffected by this change. Why? Well, first the school has met all requirements to start and no further approval is needed from the state. Second, A&M Wesleyan would be a much bigger threat to Texas Tech than it would be to UNT. It's not like A&M will be massively expanding the school, it just means that a major advantage Tech had over Wesleyan (cost) will soon be gone. Third, nothing really changes - the whole "only city without a public law school" was really just marketing lingo to get it approved, and is pretty meaningless after the fact. Fourth, just because A&M is running the show (assuming it goes through) doesn't mean that the school will be any better. Anybody who picks their law school based on their undergraduate reputation is in for a world of hurt. Fifth, UNTLaw is still in downtown Dallas. That remains a massive advantage over everyone but Texas and South Texas.

There's plenty of other reasons to be unconcerned, but 5 is enough to start.

As far as the legal industry itself is concerned: the situation in Texas is not as bad as it is elsewhere in the nation. There's a whole bunch of people complaining because they thought that going to a "top-tier" school (there are none in Texas, as top tier really only means a small list of 14 schools, none closer than Chicago) guarantees them money and success. That used to seem logical, until the ABA released the first legal employment numbers for all law schools. For people who are planning on going to law school, these are the most important numbers to consider (to a lesser extent, clerkships, partners, journal citation and bar pass rates should also be considered). If someone is dumb enough to rely on US News's numbers, they shouldn't be in law school to begin with - they should consider a more simplistic profession - like animal husbandry or medicine . So what schools actually produce employable lawyers? Here's the ABA's list.

St. Mary's 78.31%
Baylor 70.06%
Texas - Austin 69.90%
South Texas 64.43%
Texas Tech 63.50%
Vanderbilt Western University (SMU) 63.24%
Houston 60.14%
Texas Southern 53.37%
Wesleyan 48.88%

Shocked the heck outta me, but any lawyer knows that it's not who gets the highest score on the bar that becomes the best lawyer, its the guy who knows what hands to shake. So congrats to the Aggies if they do get this through - they've just become the worst public law school in the state - assuming you actually want to be a lawyer when you graduate.

incorrect

the THECB is powerless they approve nothing it is the legislature that approves it and that is why unT is not open now.....because they have never been funded and they will not have a chance to be funded again until 2013 and if not then the law school is probably dead

I doubt that UH or TTU or UT will get involved mainly because this probably signals death for the unT law school and that means tha tthe same or possibly fewer lawyers will be produced because a new school will not open and TAMU is taking over an existing school and between their private donors and now state support they can afford to increase admissions and cut class sizes and graduate numbers so it is a win win for the existing law schools in the state for the most part......there will be increased competition to a degree because TAMU will put resources into the school and improve the reputation, but it will take a long time to really get that in place and at the same time there will still be 250 or so fewer law graduates than is there was a NEW school opening up along with TWU staying private

and unT has not met all the requirements.....they have failed to meet the main requirement and that is to actually be funded by the legislature and the next opportunity for that is 2013 and if the state is still in a budget crunch it will not happen then and if it does not happen then then unT law is probably dead because by tehn it will be clear the legal market is dead, TAMU will be established, and it will be very clear that the dallas campus is a total failure as well and in no way ready to take on a law school and Texas will move on to UT medical schools in Austin and South Texas vs unneeded law schools in dallas

and you are dreaming if you think that aggies are just going to get a law school and then let it sit there with a 4th tier reputation they have already secured the 25 million from private donations to buy the place and surely million more will be spent in private money by them

and being in "dallas" has nothing to do with anything top law schools recruit nationally they don't recruit because joe's law school is around the corner and also the legal community is not a regional deal if it is suffering all over the USA (and it is GREATLY) that means that students from all over the USA are looking everywhere for jobs even from top law schools and that means that dallas law firms are recruiting nationally even more than ever and they have ALWAYS recruited nationally no one from a major dallas law firm is sittig around wishing that subway law college would open up around the way so they could hire local.....they are nationally recruiting and will continue to do so period

and as I said above is any group of people will be willing to break the mold just a bit and hire it will be aggies supporting aggies and everyone else will be in the same boat as all the other graduates from low ranked and unneeded law schools....in debt and unemployeed

also Texas is usually on the cusp of the top 14 law schools and they are recognized nationally the issue with them is large class sizes and refusal to invest in the library resources to match enrollment, but many people consider them to be nationally competitive

UH also has three nationally competitive specialties like health care, IP, and energy.....it will be extremely difficult for unT to go after specialties like IP because people that go into that speciality often have engineering or life/physical sciences degrees and unT is not known for either of those while UH and TAMU are.....in health care unT has a medical school, but it is a D.O. school and those are not known for strong research programs they are known for primary care and while UH does not have a medical school they have a strong asociation with the TMC and UH and TAMU are already very strong in all aspects of energy to produce under graduates in those fields and to have faculty for collaboration with their law faculty

it was an up hill and foolish battle for this law school already and it would have been even more of an up hill battle for the graduates of it if it ever opens, but now it has just gotten even more up hill and possibly done for

Eastwood Eagle · June 28, 2012

top dallas law firms recruit nationally they are not suddenly going to take marginal students from a new law school just because it is down the street and many of the people running those schools have a vested interest in keeping THEIR law schools they graduated from looking good not throwing a bone to the cheap degree factory down the street.....their kids are going to those top schools not unT

This is what I was trying to argue above. You are not going to get the nice paying jobs, necessary to pay off your loans, unless you go to a top Texas school or go debt free. That is why I don't wan't UNT law because these students will not get the top paying jobs and thus will be riddled with debt making them resent UNT Law and hurting our reputation.

law schools as much as ANY degree is based on reputation not location and it is a very closed club not looking to give a leg up to upstarts especially ones that have a goal of being "cheap" and for the common man and to graduate public service lawyers

Reputation is everything. That is why UT >>>>>>UHLC/SMU/Baylor>>Tech when it comes to job prospects. That does not mean all lawyers who come out of these schools are great lawyers it just means they have access to be best jobs. I'm sure great attorneys come out of TexWes, Texas Southern or South Texas but they do not get the opportunity students from UT and the T2 schools get.

it was an up hill and foolish battle for this law school already and it would have been even more of an up hill battle for the graduates of it if it ever opens, but now it has just gotten even more up hill and possibly done for

Solid post. Plain in simple the school is not needed. While it looks good to have a law school for a university, fact is, it will only hurt UNT's reputation (which means a lot for law school) and hurt the Dallas legal market.

Green Mean · June 28, 2012

Many people on here talk about the lawyer market being bad but things run in cycles. It may be bad now but in 10 yrs the story might be different. Law is one of those things that either you're good and fit to being one or you're not. My brother is a lawyer who graduated from St. Mary's a little over a decade ago and he does just fine running his own practice. In his graduating class the valedictorian burnt out and never went to practice and so many of his classmates either flat out couldn't pass the bar or just failed to become successful. Lawyers are definitely fit for certain types of personality and people. IT is the industry I am in and we always seem to be really up or really down but schools aren't closing those programs down or anything. I don't mind two more law schools coming to the area....if you're good and and persevere then you'll make it.

Yes the debt isn't worth it even for the successful ones as my brother opted to go to private schools for both is undergraduate and law degree but you can get a law degree from a public school and have MUCH MUCH less debt.

GL2Greatness · June 28, 2012

Many people on here talk about the lawyer market being bad but things run in cycles. It may be bad now but in 10 yrs the story might be different. Law is one of those things that either you're good and fit to being one or you're not. My brother is a lawyer who graduated from St. Mary's a little over a decade ago and he does just fine running his own practice. In his graduating class the valedictorian burnt out and never went to practice and so many of his classmates either flat out couldn't pass the bar or just failed to become successful. Lawyers are definitely fit for certain types of personality and people. IT is the industry I am in and we always seem to be really up or really down but schools aren't closing those programs down or anything. I don't mind two more law schools coming to the area....if you're good and and persevere then you'll make it.

Yes the debt isn't worth it even for the successful ones as my brother opted to go to private schools for both is undergraduate and law degree but you can get a law degree from a public school and have MUCH MUCH less debt.

the legal field is hurting because of many more reasons than just a down economy

even if the economy was decent to good the legal field was headed for issues regardless.......it is exactly the attitude that you and those that support the unT-dallas law school are expressing that has put the hurt on the legal field

it is over crowded and will continue to be......add in legal software (not that great for most things, but useful for some), the offshoring of legal clerking and brief writing to places like India, and the fact that many many law schools have already opened up over the last decade and there are already issues and there will continue to be

and even if the economy turns around and things pick up there are PLENTY of law school slots available and plenty of people available to fill them without more schools......the THECB estimated it would cost 1.25 million per year to add 250 law slots in Texas at existing schools VS 55 million in start up and building cost alone for a new law school

so Texas could add the same number of graduates from existing law schools for the next 44 years with the cost to start the unT-dallas law school

and now that it is looking like it will cost 20 million to 30 million just to renovate the UCD and then another 45 million for the old muny building if they are ever able to move there and the return on investment is even more poor

http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/reports/PDF/1867.PDF?CFID=30136432&CFTOKEN=16473819

building something from scratch just to say there is exist is not always the best idea

there has already been 75 million plus wasted on the dallas campus and it has never in a decade come remotely close to the wildly (out right fraudulent) projections that were given for even the first few years and it is well past those years and still WELL under those projections and well under performong and it is actually LOSING enrollment over the last 3 years

why repeate the same mistakes with something that cost even more, is not remptely needed, and that will saddle the "graduates" with even greater debt and lesser job prospects

Eastwood Eagle · June 28, 2012

Many people on here talk about the lawyer market being bad but things run in cycles. It may be bad now but in 10 yrs the story might be different. Law is one of those things that either you're good and fit to being one or you're not. My brother is a lawyer who graduated from St. Mary's a little over a decade ago and he does just fine running his own practice. In his graduating class the valedictorian burnt out and never went to practice and so many of his classmates either flat out couldn't pass the bar or just failed to become successful. Lawyers are definitely fit for certain types of personality and people. IT is the industry I am in and we always seem to be really up or really down but schools aren't closing those programs down or anything. I don't mind two more law schools coming to the area....if you're good and and persevere then you'll make it.

Yes the debt isn't worth it even for the successful ones as my brother opted to go to private schools for both is undergraduate and law degree but you can get a law degree from a public school and have MUCH MUCH less debt.

I start UHLC this fall. UHLC is relatively cheap for law school. However, even with a grant and a nice scholarship I'm still looking at +100k in loans because of tutition, cost of living and interest. So it may be "much much less" debt but it is still nonetheless a heavy burden if you do not land a nice gig.

Also, for the record, two new law schools are not opening. TexWes is basically changing it's name and getting more funding. Only one more school is opening, UNT.

Yes the legal field goes in cycles, but one of the things you read on the proposed UNT Law website how it is needed NOW that a public school open in DFW. It's actually the opposite. We don't need any new schools now. Alternatively, when we do need more lawyers (which will probably not happen) why can't the established schools expand their class size to meet the demand. I'm sure they would love to open the door and rake in more money.

In my earlier post I said I wish they would open the school when the market bounced back- but that could prove difficult to do.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

GrayEagle · June 29, 2012

Doesn't Houston have two public law schools?

Eastwood Eagle · June 29, 2012

Yes- University of Houston and Texas Southern.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

Legend500 · June 29, 2012

Well, this is what I get for leaving the topic alone for a day...

That is not a fair way for evaluating law schools. No one in their right mind would say St. Marys is better than UHLC, Baylor, Tech, SMU or UT as far as employment prospects.
Many people go to law school for various reasons- business work, clerk ship, further academia or entrepunership. You can't evaluate a school based on what percent are lawyers.
In all honesty UNT is not needed, in fact, TWU is not needed. There is an over saturation of lawyers in the metroplex, and in the country.

As far as employment, I would. Look, as far as employment prospects go, St. Mary's is doing something better than everyone else - making lawyers. That's what law schools do. If people are going for other reasons, great, but it's the job of law schools to make lawyers, not academics or businessmen. Now, it seems like you're equating Big Law jobs with being "good" jobs. If you're interested in spending your career becoming the legal equivalent of a Vice-President of Office Supplies, that's probably true. But if we're talking paying off debts, we know that its a lot harder to pay them off without a job than it is with one.

You're also pretty clearly in the pre-1L daze of being happy that you ended up at UH. That's great - family went there, and aside from building a library underground in a hurricane-prone swamp, it's a great place. But don't kid yourself - unless you have personal connections in this market, there's really very little distance between the top and bottom schools. The legal profession is one where its up to you to take advantage of what you're given, not rest on your laurels because you went to the second-best law school south of I-10.

Now, is there an over-saturation of lawyers? Not unless you mean that it's hard to find the mythical 160k job anymore. Sure, pay is down and jobs are down, but that's a risk you take in any line of work - just ask travel agents. The fact that kids are paying hundreds of thousands thinking that they can make it back, well - you'll learn this in the first week - caveat emptor.

Law school is not about being guaranteed a job. It's about being given an opportunity to enter an exclusive club. Some people get in and just sit there, some become Supreme Court justices, It's up to you to determine which one you'll be.

Law Schools are just like 4 year universities. They give you the tools, but it's up to the individual to hone those and succeed in their chosen profession. There are bad lawyers that attended Harvard Law and their are good lawyers that attended schools like Weslyan.

Weslyan has a 4 year, go at night program that attracts students with life experience. People who already have a job, but are looking to change professions or simply better their personal situation. These types are often much better prepared for the work place straight out of law school than the 24 or 25 year old who has basically done nothing but attend school their entire life.

Could not have said it better myself, and heck, I tried.

I'm not saying TTT an TTTT do not produce good attorneys. They don't produce good jobs. This is not an subjective thing on what makes an attorney good. Check out :http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/, they do a great job of pulling data from multiple sources.

Baylor and SMU have similar numbers as UHLC. Notice the % that have jobs employed by firms with 26-500 attorneys. These are the jobs that will allow someone not to be in debt for an extended amount of time.

I'll play you're game (while reminding you of my arguments about what a good job is, supra, and also reminding you that there are second-year solos making 100k and second year BigLaw lawyers making 10k). In fact, there's a point I should stress - being in a firm of 250 lawyers is absolutely no guarantee that you're making more than small firm or solo per billable hour.

But OK, i'll bite and play on your turf - let's look at lawschooltransparency.com's employment scores:

Baylor 68.8%

Texas 68.1%

St. Mary's 66.7%

Southern Methodist 61.4%

Texas Tech 60.5%

South Texas 59.2%

Houston 58%

Texas Wesleyan 39.5%

Texas Southern 35%

So although the order changes a bit, the groupings remain the same as the ABA's study: the three discernible "groups" of schools - 1) BU, UT and StMU, 2) SMU, TTU, SoTX, UH 3) TWU and TSU. In sum, your own sources deny your argument.

Now as far as GL2Greatness is concerned, any good argument needs to be broken down a bit...

the THECB is powerless they approve nothing it is the legislature that approves it and that is why unT is not open now.....because they have never been funded and they will not have a chance to be funded again until 2013 and if not then the law school is probably dead...and unT has not met all the requirements.....they have failed to meet the main requirement and that is to actually be funded by the legislature and the next opportunity for that is 2013 and if the state is still in a budget crunch it will not happen then and if it does not happen then then unT law is probably dead

For everyone's reference, you're referring to this line in the Authorization Bill (SB956): "This Act takes effect only if a specific appropriation for the implementation of the Act is provided in a general appropriations act..."

Actually, the "fund or die provision" in SB 956, Section 6 was satisfied by a 5 million dollar appropriation in 2009 (the LBB's Supplemental to SB1). Now that it's satisfied, the funding is no longer voted on by the legislature separately, but becomes part of the omnibus system requests presented in the higher education funding bill. Thus, UNTDLS is entitled to "formula funding" under the Education Code 61.003 and will simply be allotted a share of the standard funding amount UNTS gets - a situation which the enrolled bill itself notes. If you want to look it up, it's Section 105.502©(1-2).

I doubt that UH or TTU or UT will get involved mainly because this probably signals death for the unT law school and that means tha tthe same or possibly fewer lawyers will be produced because a new school will not open

So the THECB couldn't block this and the other systems won't get involved, you say? Well, that's exactly what happened last time. from The Eagle: "A&M’s last effort to offer a law degree came in the 1990s, when it entered into a partnership with the South Texas College of Law in Houston. ...The Higher Education Coordinating Board blocked that plan, saying it was concerned that the state would eventually end up having to fund the school. But A&M officials also perceived that politics were involved in the decision. Ray Bowen, who was A&M president at the time, said supporters of the University of Houston Law Center opposed the idea." It will happen again.

and you are dreaming if you think that aggies are just going to get a law school and then let it sit there with a 4th tier reputation they have already secured the 25 million from private donations to buy the place

Like UNT, A&M will have to get through an authorization bill and a funding bill in two sessions in order to fund it, unless A&M intends this to be a private law school. They won't under the current budgetary regime. Good thing UNT already did.

and being in "dallas" has nothing to do with anything top law schools recruit nationally they don't recruit because joe's law school is around the corner and also the legal community is not a regional deal if it is suffering all over the USA

But most lawyers aren't employed by BigLaw - most are small firm. Those firms very much care whether they hire someone who knows the system and the people in Dallas County over Tarrant Count. Don't think that such trivial regionalisms matter? Go walk into a Tarrant County court with a "I love Democratic judges" shirt from the Dallas Democratic Party.

The legal market is bad, but I defy you to find one person who thinks that the situation is nearly as bad in Texas as elsewhere in the nation. Plus, law is unusual in that if you didn't go to one of the "T10" schools, location matters just as much as reputation. Any firm in Texas would have to be crazy to hire a Notre Dame grad over, say, a Houston grad.

unT has a medical school, but it is a D.O. school and those are not known for strong research programs they are known for primary care and while UH does not have a medical school

UNT's medical school will start issuing MDs in the next two years.

the legal field is hurting because ...it is over crowded and will continue to be......add in legal software (not that great for most things, but useful for some), the offshoring of legal clerking and brief writing to places like India, and the fact that many many law schools have already opened up over the last decade ...

and even if the economy turns around and things pick up there are PLENTY of law school slots available and plenty of people available to fill them without more schools......the THECB estimated it would cost 1.25 million per year to add 250 law slots in Texas at existing schools VS 55 million in start up and building cost alone for a new law school.

OK, a lot of "fleeting" misunderstandings in one area, but I'll give it a go.

1) People in 1994 said the same thing - "the profession is crowded and will never get better." Ten years later, we had the strongest market in the history of the profession. Law, like all economies, goes in cycles. Even now, applications to law schools are massively down (well below replacement for a growing country), and baby-boomer lawyers continue to get older. There's you're future "not enough lawyers" headline in the WSJ taking shape now. In fact, the situation in 1994 was much worse than it is now.

2) Legal software has cost some jobs, but they're on the lower end of the scale, and not nearly as disruptive as earlier technologies were. You think electronic discovery has led to lost jobs? Does anyone remember when the copier came out? Or when telephonic hearings limited the need for local counsel?

3) If you're outsourcing legal work, you better check with Ethics. In most cases, letting someone in Punjab (who is not a member of your firm) have access to confidential information and allowing them to draft pleadings is begging for a malpractice campaign. Plus, Indian offshoring cannibalizes work being done by computers now anyway. In short, all that man in Punjab is doing is replacing a HotDocs or Westlaw subscription - not a living, breathing attorney at a desk.

4) THECB then went on to note that adding those extra seats would cause more problems in the long term than it's worth. First, the schools probably don't want to add those seats. Second, more seats means lower quality, usually. Better to have 10 200-student schools than 1 2000 student school. Finally, Texas is in a unique position. Almost none of the new schools send people to Texas to practice, and even if they did these attorneys have to spend years catching up on Texas law, re-taking the bar and then hoping to find a job in a market that vastly prefers local kids. Also, Texans are best served legally by other Texans educated in Texas. Ask a New Mexican about Oil & Gas law, or an Oklahoman about the TCPA, and you can spot the difference immediately. Texas has not opened a new law school since Texas Wesleyan did 20-some-odd years ago, and in that time, Texas has added nearly 10 million people to its population. It's time to get back on track.

I start UHLC this fall.... We don't need any new schools now. Alternatively, when we do need more lawyers (which will probably not happen) why can't the established schools expand their class size to meet the demand. I'm sure they would love to open the door and rake in more money.

Good luck, and don't worry. Have you heard about the legal "depression" of the early 90's? No? That's because it was followed by a much bigger boom. Same thing happened in the 60's, 50's, 30's... and it will happen again.

Now's the exact time to open a new school. Why? Think markets, and think Apogee. You don't buy high and sell low. Same with any other "investment". The best time to build something is when it's cheap and nobody sees a need for it, because by the time the market rolls around again, you'll be up and running with something which cost a fraction of what it would have cost during the "good years".

Now as far as expanding the present schools - that's a non-starter for the reasons I listed above, but two quick points: 1) who says the schools want to expand? At a certain point, the infrastructure required exceeds the available capacity. 2) Larger classes = lower achievement. Just ask our friends at Thomas Cooley.

Whew.

So in sum, UNT just has to keep its head down and keep going. Our problems in the past came from running away whenever things seemed to be getting difficult. Now's the time to stand up and be counted. Now's the time to Believe in the Mean Green. Or Blue Jaguars.

GL2Greatness · June 29, 2012

1. while you say that legal employment overall is not down it is just the really high paying jobs that are down.....when the average TSU-TMCL graduate is 100K in debt when they graduate, a large chunk of them fail to pass the bar, and when they have put off earning 30 to 35K per year at even a crappy job for 3 years......that puts those people about 200K in the hole for their "chance" to enter the exclusive club and if not they can take that 45K per year DA job and they can have the equivilent of the large chunk of a mortgage payment for just their legal education cost to cover for the next 20 years that will eat up a hugh chunk of that 45K per year.....and it is not like cities and counties are hiring left and right now as well

if people want to gamble to enter the club then they can go to any one of the existing schools public or private they don't need the tax payers to step up and help offset a small part of that cost.....they can take the full gamble themselves

2. the THECB study and every other study out there has made it clear that Texas has no shortage of lawyers even with the increase in population and that the new jobs in the legal field will be about HALF of the number of current legal graduates for in state graduates alone not to mention imports

the THECB has made it clear that existing law schools and their graduates will fill the legal needs of the state for the forseeable future even if the economy picks up

3. while a large school can go down in rep the fact is that UT is the largest law school in Texas and also clearly the highest "ranked" and I did say before that size is an issue in their not being ranked higher, but that is because UT refuses to build out library and library staff levels and placement office and similar things to meet the ratio that would rank them higher because they know it really makes no difference in the education they provide, they know their students mostly get hired still based on their rep and they know that the schools ahead of them are spending stupid amounts of money on those things to keep their top rankings and it would be hard for UT to make a resonable climb even if they just wasted money on those things....the other public schools in Texas could easily add 250 students split between them and not come close to being the size of UT or to being over crowded provided that the funding was given at similar levels......and as of now and into the future no one out there believes there is a need for those students even if the economy improves greatly

4. oil and gas is fine and good, but your average divorce, IP, business, criminal defense, and on and on lawyer needs to know next to nothing about oil and gas unless they are dealign with a divorce, criminal, or business case that involves oil and gas and then they can always consult with someone else.......no lawyer can know it all and any one that does is dangerous.....the only place in the USA that has laws that are dramatically different than most other places is Louisiana and even then it is not rare at all for lawyers to pass the bar in Louisiana and other places no matter where they went to law school

4. if unT-dallas college of law was funded and set in stone in 2009....why was it not funded to actually open then much less two years later in 2011.......well because it has not actually been funded to open that is why.......and if it is not funded to open in 2013 then you can look forward to more spin from the unT system about having to wait to find just the right people and just the right students and blah blah yadda yadda and look for us to open in 2016!!!!!!!!....IF THEY GET FUNDED IN 2015!!!!! which will probably not happen

there was ZERO funding for renovations to the top floors of the UCD and there was ZERO funding for faculty and there was not even a hint of funding for the old muny building they hope to move into one day......which is why they did not open in 2012......because they were not funded to open

the legislature can do anything they wish.....they can close it down in 2013 and say it is done for if they wish.....they could close down UT Austin in 2013 if they wish.....all they would have to do is cut the funding and say you are closed....the THECB has nothing to do with it at all they are powerless in Texas and if the legislature says something does not get funded or it is closed or it is open.....then it is not funded, it is closed, or it is opened.....they have the power to make it happen or not happen and a lot of that power is funding it or not funding it

http://www.ntdaily.com/?p=5345

see they were going to accept applications in 2010 and open in 2011......but of course since they got no funding in 2011 that won't happen.....and it did not happen.....and actually more accruate would have been funded in 2011 and opened in 2012.....but they were not funded in 2011.....so they made up a story about "needing to find a dean that wa s the "right fit" and that "took longer than planned"

and since dallas has only just started on the exterior renovations to the muny building, and since dallas has welched on the 8 million for interior renovations they promissed.......and since it will already take 45+ million for the interior in addition to the 8 million dallas welched on........that means that building will not be used any time soon

and it will take 20+ million to renovate the top two floors of the UCD......and there was ZERO funding alloted for that in 2011......and I have seen NOTHING that says that the unT system has started those renovations on their own......and since the unT system is already stretched WAY too thin......I doubt they have the money to do those renovations on their own.......because they already wasted money on building a building in south dallas that was larger than the formula funding and state approved funding allowed......but the "system" tightened their belt for that "calculated gamble" and since the actual enrollment has DECLINED every year the dallas campus has been open that "gamble" is not paying off.......and unT also bought a residential building next door to the UCD against the recomendations of the THECB.......and that building has failed to live up to the projections for the number of residents even AFTER opening it up to non students......so the "system" has to cover that stupidity.......they are still paying for the actual purchase of the UCD building......and if they hold law classes in that building that means they will displace UCD students

http://www.theeastte...63#.T-2iEcWDobO

unT made an agreement when the building was pruchased that they would not dicplace the UCD students.....and as that article says they were looking at another building for the law school (not the same as the old muny building that is in disrepair) and now unT WANTS to have the law school on the top two floors and part of the other floors only slightly displacing UCD students.......but they don't have the money to do so because they have WASTED system resources left and right on "gambles" that have FAILED to pay off

the unT system is struggling for money....that is why they have business officers going to the students in Denton and saying lets not bond out the new union lets raise the fees by a factor of 9.....and even after that we are going to take the fashion collection that the fashion students actually use for their classes and we are goign to stick it in storage and we are going to move those students and another programs students and faculty into three temp shacks right in the midle of campus across from the new union.......because they have WASTED their resources and ability to bond out more things based on future hopes

that is why after the Denton students paid more tuition last year specifically to hire more faculty the Denton campus did NOT hire more faculty because of a decrease of about 500 total students.......a very very small decrease for a university of nearly 36K students, but they could just not find the money to hire new faculty even though they increased tuition on all 36K students just for that reason.....that is also the reason that the Denton canpus can not increase admissions......because they need all the warm bodies they can get to cover their "calculated gambles" in south dallas and their residential building purchases in downtown dallas and to try and renovate the top floors of the UCD on a wing and a prayer that if they just spend enough money and get far enough along that the legislature will be forced to fund the law school foolishness.......but after unT has failed on so many other plans and ideas and gone against the recommendations of the THECB and the legislature and now that royce west is no longer in charge of the higher education committee unT has blown it and they have lost anyone wanting to help them with their failed dreams because they just don't pan out and they turn out to be a waste of precious resources

5. that Eagle article (like so many student paper articles) is just wrong....it was the AG that stepped in and killed the purchase of STCL and if the legislature had wanted it done then they could have funded it and it would have happened......the THECB is POWERLESS to stop things that the legislature wants and they are powerless to have things happen that the legislature does not want.....the THECB only offersw advice and makes reports......if the legislature wants it then it happens.....if they do not want it then it does not happen

6. unT will not be offering M.D. degrees in two years.....why.....for the same reason they do not have a functioning law school right now......the M.D. program was not funded by the legislature in 2011

http://www.hsc.unt.e...ame=In the News

it says right on the link above from the unTHSC

07-15-2011 Push for UNT Health Science MD school stalled

the BOR can approve anything they want....the THECB can agree or disagree with that......but if the legislature does not fund it then it is all for naught

http://www.star-tele...fort-worth.html

and just as the link states above

The Texas Legislature's recent failure to approve an M.D. program at the University of North Texas Health Science Center at Fort Worth

it was not apporved or funded.....it will not happen.....a PharmD. program will happen because it was funded after 3 tries, but an M.D. program will NOT happen because it was not funded.....just like the law school was not funded...so it will not open.....and if it is not funded in 2013.....it will not open

and while the PharmD program was funded....I would not be shocked to see it face delays as well.....because the unT system has a crisis of leadership that is in well over their heads with too many issues they are not ahndling properly and too many stupid distractions and too many thieves and parasites in the mix and it gets in the way of and henders their ability to make things actually happen and to make themselves attractive for private dollars and attractive to people that will come in and get things like PharmD programs rolling in a proper fashion that will lead to accrediation.....just like they struggled to find a dean for the law school even after that 5 million was funded in 2009 and just like they have struggled to run the dallas campus and they have struggled to get engineering programs going and just like they are struggling to meet their own projections for the strategic plan for research only 2 years into it....poor leadership and poor planning and wasteful stupid ideas

Edited June 29, 2012 by GL2Greatness

wardly · June 29, 2012

Just because you can, does not mean you should. DFW needed a public/state law school. It now has one. Both UNT and the State of Texas shpuld cut its losses and move on.

russell360 · June 29, 2012

I have to think that there HAS to be more pressing needs for the state than more law schools.

There is no true shortage of lawyers holding back the State of Texas.

This seems to boil down to NT prestige.. If UT, UH, TTU have schools, NT has to have one!... I don't think opening another school is the best stewardship of state money.

You can't tell me that there is a shortage of such magnitude that it would justify such on expense in this economy and in the face of higher ed. cuts.

The State has voiced what it wants; research universities, however,UNT is lagging behind in meeting those criteria forfunding which the state is offering, and it seems is focused on spending $$ and political capital on a law school( which is not needed). I bet that the state won't fund it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1

Harry · June 29, 2012

I have to think that there HAS to be more pressing needs for the state than more law schools.

There is no true shortage of lawyers holding back the State of Texas.

This seems to boil down to NT prestige.. If UT, UH, TTU have schools, NT has to have one!... I don't think opening another school is the best stewardship of state money.

You can't tell me that there is a shortage of such magnitude that it would justify such on expense in this economy and in the face of higher ed. cuts.

The State has voiced what it wants; research universities, however,UNT is lagging behind in meeting those criteria forfunding which the state is offering, and it seems is focused on spending $$ and political capital on a law school( which is not needed). I bet that the state won't fund it.

http://www.nytimes.c...09law.html?_r=1

Well you make a good point but the problem is you are late to the game -- UNT already received approval of this law school and that's no easy task. For them to let it go now makes no sense...another system would just try to get the empty spot. Law like many other fields are hurting because of the terrible economy we still remain in. If the economy comes back so will professions like law. If UNT was trying to get state approval for the law school your argument would have more merit.

Green Mean · June 29, 2012

I'd love to see a pharmacy school at UNT.

Eastwood Eagle · June 29, 2012

Green Mean, that would a much wiser choice than a law school. To my knowledge, and I have not done the extensive research I have done on law schools, is that pharmacy grads have a nice outlook post grad.

No matter how you boil it down the school is not needed. I don't see an argument presented to prove otherwise. That stats that have been thrown around show that even UT, UHLC, SMU and BU are having trouble employing some of their grads. Now throw in a TTTT school to the mix? It just makes no sense.

MeanGreenTexan · June 29, 2012

I think UNT has been trying to get a Pharmacy school passed, but have hit snags in state voting due to budget issues....

russell360 · June 29, 2012

Texas Tech was approved years ago for a vet school, but it has yet to be built. It was never funded.

TheTastyGreek · June 29, 2012

Many things

This (the original, not the 'summary' I fake quoted) is the way to do a long post. I don't give two poops about the legal profession, but I read every word.

GL2Greatness · June 29, 2012

Well you make a good point but the problem is you are late to the game -- UNT already received approval of this law school and that's no easy task. For them to let it go now makes no sense...another system would just try to get the empty spot. Law like many other fields are hurting because of the terrible economy we still remain in. If the economy comes back so will professions like law. If UNT was trying to get state approval for the law school your argument would have more merit.

no other system will step in and try and get the law school because none of them have foolish dreams and none of them are run by idiots that waste higher ed resources on failed dallas economic development projects

this is like the argument that unT "won" or "beat out" other systems for the south dallas campus when the REALITY is that UT declined to even study the idea, Texas Tech took a brief look and declined to consider it for the same reasond that UT declined (the existance of two UT system schools in the area already with UTA losing enrollment at that time and UTD well below expected enrollment and with plenty of room to grow) and TAMU was actually the first choice, but after studying the idea TAMU only wanted to open an upper division system center not a full campus with dorms and athletics and all the other fluff that is not needed and that will be wastedfully planned for and will never happen

http://www.senate.st...97/p050897a.htm

right there from 1997 right from the office of the pig at the trough itself.....after the study was done and TAMU wanted a very limited program probably linked to a community college and using their existing facilities (just like TAMU-K-SA was started) royce the idiot turned on TAMU and looked to the last desperate partner out there and that was unT with an idiot named al hurley at the helm that was looking for something to top off his decades of lack luster "leadership" and a way to keep sucking at the teet of the public sector while working a lot less than a university president.......so the "system" was finally born with a "chancellor" that was seperate from the president and al took that do nothing job and did what he did best.....nothing until he retired with a more bloated retirement package based on higher pay for being a "chancellor"

then dallas proper wedged in lee the idiot and they really started to suck the blood and the life out of the Denton campus...the unT "system" was handed off to the corrupt politicians of dallas in exchange for them no longer getting in the way of higher education in the rest of the state and the Denton campus suffers for that

no one else wants a law school besides TAMU and even TAMU has given up on the idea of starting one from scratch because they know it is such a bad idea....if they really wanted to try and start one they would do so in Corpus, Kingsville, or Laredo and they might have a chance.....Brownsville and Edinburg have been begging for a law school (based in the same failed ideas that dallas pushes for with unT) for a decade or more and the UT system wisely declines to even consider it because they know it is not needed, it will always SUCK, and it will be a waste and a failure and it will produce people with lots of debt and few job prospects

instead the UT system has wisely looked at medical schools.....one for Austin where the true "need" is questionable based on the "our region" argument that is killing government at all levels all over the USA and based on the fact that it will further increase the research profile of the Austin campus and the reputation.....since M.Ds are actually needed, can still get jobs (even if many of those jobs will now be working for a large HMO) it is not a waste to put an M.D school in Austin especially since medical training is medical training and it makes sense to put M.D. schools in areas where there are hospitals for residency

UT is getting their Austin med school by committing resources to south Texas for their medical school and also by having Austin promise to provide funding for the Austin school and by getting private funding for it

TAMU has made the wise decision to do the only thing possible to ever get a law school and especially to ever get one that has a chance of being decent or better and that is buying TWU......the reason that unT never bought TWU is because the parasites in dallas wanted to waste resources in dallas proper and TWU is not in dallas proper it is in Fort Worth so that does not work for royce and lee and the other fools

TAMU will also have the resources and political clout to get it done this time and they will pull the private dollars to make sure that a waste of state finds argument can't be used

even though unT has already wasted 5 million of state resources and probably several million more of system (Denton students) money on the law school that does not mean there is not millions more to be wasted if it is approved and with TAMU in the mix now the chances of it getting funded in 2013 look very slim.....some times when you are paddling in turd crek and you realize you are getting closer to the waste treatment plant it makes more sense to turn around and head back instead of heading for the rapids just after the waste treatment plant......you seem to think that closing your mouth really tight and tossing the paddles away and heading right into the rapids is a good idea because what the hell we are already in turd creek why turn back now

when the reality is that even if the unT school does get the tens of millions more to waste and the formula fundign to waste in 2013 and 2015 TAMU is going to leverage significantly more resources (private dollars) to make sure that their school is competitive (as best it can be in a very poor market that will continue long into the future) and that just means the unT school will be further down the list.....no longer will they be able to claim we are "cheaper" or we are going to move rapidly past TWU (which is probably not realistic even if TWU stayed private)

and while TAMU may well be wasting state and private resources at least they will not be doing so by adding even more students that will struggle to find jobs they are only wasting money on the same students that would struggle to fnd jobs not making more

good money after bad money is never a wise investment.....never

unT has been wasting time and resources on this law school since at least 2004 and it has failed time and again through at least 3 budget sessions and maybe 4 to get funded to actually open......it was shown to CLEARLY not be needed back then and that was well before the legal climate became so bad.....it was shown to not be needed in Texas and more specifically it was shown to not be needed in dallas and it was shown that IF anywhere sometime in the future could claim to need a law school it would be south Texas and it was clearly shown that Texas could easily and more cheaply porduce more lawyers if they were needed by increasing enrollment at existing schools and all of that was nearly a decade ago when the legal climate and the economy and state budgets were not so bad off

the wrong place, the wrong time, the wrong academic programs, and in reality the wrong university and system to attempt it.......and to keep it going just means the Denton campus will continue to suffer for that mistake and many other similar mistakes

Edited June 29, 2012 by GL2Greatness

GreenMachine · June 29, 2012

no other system will step in and try and get the law school because none of them have foolish dreams and none of them are run by idiots that waste higher ed resources on failed dallas economic development projects

this is like the argument that unT "won" or "beat out" other systems for the south dallas campus when the REALITY is that UT declined to even study the idea, Texas Tech took a brief look and declined to consider it for the same reasond that UT declined (the existance of two UT system schools in the area already with UTA losing enrollment at that time and UTD well below expected enrollment and with plenty of room to grow) and TAMU was actually the first choice, but after studying the idea TAMU only wanted to open an upper division system center not a full campus with dorms and athletics and all the other fluff that is not needed and that will be wastedfully planned for and will never happen

http://www.senate.st...97/p050897a.htm

right there from 1997 right from the office of the pig at the trough itself.....after the study was done and TAMU wanted a very limited program probably linked to a community college and using their existing facilities (just like TAMU-K-SA was started) royce the idiot turned on TAMU and looked to the last desperate partner out there and that was unT with an idiot named al hurley at the helm that was looking for something to top off his decades of lack luster "leadership" and a way to keep sucking at the teet of the public sector while working a lot less than a university president.......so the "system" was finally born with a "chancellor" that was seperate from the president and al took that do nothing job and did what he did best.....nothing until he retired with a more bloated retirement package based on higher pay for being a "chancellor"

then dallas proper wedged in lee the idiot and they really started to suck the blood and the life out of the Denton campus...the unT "system" was handed off to the corrupt politicians of dallas in exchange for them no longer getting in the way of higher education in the rest of the state and the Denton campus suffers for that

no one else wants a law school besides TAMU and even TAMU has given up on the idea of starting one from scratch because they know it is such a bad idea....if they really wanted to try and start one they would do so in Corpus, Kingsville, or Laredo and they might have a chance.....Brownsville and Edinburg have been begging for a law school (based in the same failed ideas that dallas pushes for with unT) for a decade or more and the UT system wisely declines to even consider it because they know it is not needed, it will always SUCK, and it will be a waste and a failure and it will produce people with lots of debt and few job prospects

instead the UT system has wisely looked at medical schools.....one for Austin where the true "need" is questionable based on the "our region" argument that is killing government at all levels all over the USA and based on the fact that it will further increase the research profile of the Austin campus and the reputation.....since M.Ds are actually needed, can still get jobs (even if many of those jobs will now be working for a large HMO) it is not a waste to put an M.D school in Austin especially since medical training is medical training and it makes sense to put M.D. schools in areas where there are hospitals for residency

UT is getting their Austin med school by committing resources to south Texas for their medical school and also by having Austin promise to provide funding for the Austin school and by getting private funding for it

TAMU has made the wise decision to do the only thing possible to ever get a law school and especially to ever get one that has a chance of being decent or better and that is buying TWU......the reason that unT never bought TWU is because the parasites in dallas wanted to waste resources in dallas proper and TWU is not in dallas proper it is in Fort Worth so that does not work for royce and lee and the other fools

TAMU will also have the resources and political clout to get it done this time and they will pull the private dollars to make sure that a waste of state finds argument can't be used

even though unT has already wasted 5 million of state resources and probably several million more of system (Denton students) money on the law school that does not mean there is not millions more to be wasted if it is approved and with TAMU in the mix now the chances of it getting funded in 2013 look very slim.....some times when you are paddling in turd crek and you realize you are getting closer to the waste treatment plant it makes more sense to turn around and head back instead of heading for the rapids just after the waste treatment plant......you seem to think that closing your mouth really tight and tossing the paddles away and heading right into the rapids is a good idea because what the hell we are already in turd creek why turn back now

when the reality is that even if the unT school does get the tens of millions more to waste and the formula fundign to waste in 2013 and 2015 TAMU is going to leverage significantly more resources (private dollars) to make sure that their school is competitive (as best it can be in a very poor market that will continue long into the future) and that just means the unT school will be further down the list.....no longer will they be able to claim we are "cheaper" or we are going to move rapidly past TWU (which is probably not realistic even if TWU stayed private)

and while TAMU may well be wasting state and private resources at least they will not be doing so by adding even more students that will struggle to find jobs they are only wasting money on the same students that would struggle to fnd jobs not making more

good money after bad money is never a wise investment.....never

unT has been wasting time and resources on this law school since at least 2004 and it has failed time and again through at least 3 budget sessions and maybe 4 to get funded to actually open......it was shown to CLEARLY not be needed back then and that was well before the legal climate became so bad.....it was shown to not be needed in Texas and more specifically it was shown to not be needed in dallas and it was shown that IF anywhere sometime in the future could claim to need a law school it would be south Texas and it was clearly shown that Texas could easily and more cheaply porduce more lawyers if they were needed by increasing enrollment at existing schools and all of that was nearly a decade ago when the legal climate and the economy and state budgets were not so bad off

the wrong place, the wrong time, the wrong academic programs, and in reality the wrong university and system to attempt it.......and to keep it going just means the Denton campus will continue to suffer for that mistake and many other similar mistakes

why do you always capitalize the T in unT? Are you being a DB?

Texas Stranger · June 30, 2012

Is it true A&M tried to open a Pharmacy school but had to give up when they couldn't figure out how to get the little bottles into the printer ?

MDH · June 30, 2012

why do you always capitalize the T in unT? Are you being a DB?

Given. I'm shocked he finally moved on from calling us North Texas State. He needs some poon.

wardly · July 2, 2012

Is it true A&M tried to open a Pharmacy school but had to give up when they couldn't figure out how to get the little bottles into the printer ?

I think I saw a t.v.special in the past few years showing a new A&M School of Pharmacy that was built in the Valley. However, it was empty since State didn't fund money for furnishings,equipment, of staff. I don't know what status is now. Edited July 2, 2012 by wardly

GL2Greatness · July 2, 2012

I think I saw a t.v.special in the past few years showing a new A&M School of Pharmacy that was built in the Valley. However, it was empty since State didn't fund money for furnishings,equipment, of staff. I don't know what status is now.

it has been open since 2006