UNT law school

[wardly]

We tried unsuccessfully 10 years ago to purchase TWU law school in Ft. Worth. It appears A&M just succeeded where we failed. Bigger question: Does this kill our law school? The reason it was aproved was that there was no public law school available in DFW. Now there is. Does Texas need a state law school in both Dallas and Ft. Worth? I would think not. Your thoughts and reasons why the state should/would still allow us to move forward. Personally, I think we are dead in the water.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Haven't they already approved our school though?

If we get an approval, then we do not get a law school, the BOR should have no choice but to boot Lee Jackson. It would be a COLOSSAL failure of epic proportions for our university.

I don't think that will happen though, and we will keep our law school in Dallas.

[Green Mean]

As far as I know everything is still in place for UNT to open its law school. The A&M one however will be opening one year earlier than us in 2013 and we're opening doors in 2014. I'm sure TAMU had the idea that they wanted to open before us.

[mattmartin817]

I have no real clue about what this means, but I wouldn't think this would affect our law school. I think they are scheduled to start the same year, right? Both in 2013? I think if they were going to keep it to just one law school in the area it would have been ours since we had been approved first. But if this means we don't get our law school someones head should totally roll.

[Green Mean]

I have no real clue about what this means, but I wouldn't think this would affect our law school. I think they are scheduled to start the same year, right? Both in 2013? I think if they were going to keep it to just one law school in the area it would have been ours since we had been approved first. But if this means we don't get our law school someones head should totally roll.

TAMU opening in 2013

UNT opening in 2014

[Peacock]

In 2013, the A&M system will open the doors of a ABA-accreditted Law school in Fort Worth. A year later UNT will open an unaccreditted law school in Dallas. UNT Law will have to wait one additional year to apply for provisional ABA accredittation, and then another 3 before applying for full accredittation. While it doens't spell the end of UNT Law... in the current job market... I think you can do the math.

[jredallas]

I think there will still be an angle for UNT in that it probably will be able to come in lower on tuition. I don't see A&M changing tuition downward from where it has been with Wesleyan even if given state funding (since Wesleyan's tuition is about on par with Houston and Texas and higher than Tech). It seems that will be where the big battle will be is in the funding, and I don't like being on the UNT side of that battle with a Higher Ed Board made up of Perry appointees. I think that ultimately TAMU Law will be going after a much different market than UNT, so perhaps they both can coexist (that is if there are enough students willing to sink money into a legal education with low employment prospects.)

[MDH]

Waiting for GL2Greatness

[wardly]

I think there will still be an angle for UNT in that it probably will be able to come in lower on tuition. I don't see A&M changing tuition downward from where it has been with Wesleyan even if given state funding (since Wesleyan's tuition is about on par with Houston and Texas and higher than Tech). It seems that will be where the big battle will be is in the funding, and I don't like being on the UNT side of that battle with a Higher Ed Board made up of Perry appointees. I think that ultimately TAMU Law will be going after a much different market than UNT, so perhaps they both can coexist (that is if there are enough students willing to sink money into a legal education with low employment prospects.)

I don't see it that way. We don't need both 2 private and 2 state state law schools within 100 miles of DFW. Besides, what "different market" are you referring to? Bottom line: The big fish eat the little fish. I think our law school just got swallowed.

[Green P1]

We don't need a law school.

[jredallas]

I don't see it that way. We don't need both 2 private and 2 state state law schools within 100 miles of DFW. Besides, what "different market" are you referring to? Bottom line: The big fish eat the little fish. I think our law school just got swallowed.

I don't disagree with the need issue since there are more law grads than jobs as it is already. The different market I refer to though is for someone looking for a less expensive legal education from the DFW/North Texas area, perhaps with getting into public sector legal work (less pay/less student loans to pay off), versus trying to attract national applicants with focus in areas such as IP law that TAMU and TxWes mentioned in their respective press releases.

[KRAM1]

Well, this is indeed a tad troubling for the UNT Law School any way you want to slice it. Does it kill the UNT Law School...nope. TAMU has said there is room for both (nice of them, huh?) and that they will be specializing in some fairly narrow areas such as intellectual property law, etc. So, still a place for UNT in the landscape, but it does throw a "monkey wrench" into the idea that UNT will have the only public Law School in the North Texas region.

Might just be some re-thinking going on in Mean Green land. But, at this point...it's too early to tell what the outcome of this will be for UNT. However, at this point...I'm not a fan of what TAMU is doing here and think it smells a tad rotten. Boo TAMU!!!! BOO!

[Harry]

I look at this as a positive, perhaps it will light a fire under both UNT and more importantly The City of Dallas to get this project rolling. The bottomline is this, UNT Law in Dallas has a HUGE advantage in the fact that it is in the heart of one of the biggest and most powerful legal communities in the country. The resources that would bring (ie teachers, shared experiences, internships) alone make this 1 year opening advantage minimal. Second part - Wesleya&m is a private law school, very expensive and it will take more than a couple of years to readjust their operations to be public. My hope is this will only awaken UNT Law. There is no doubt that the legal community has suffered with the economic downturn but if the economy picks up again there will again be demand.

[DeepGreen]

I agree with Wardly. I think UNT Law just got swallowed. It's a dead issue.

[Eastwood Eagle]

This is a repost from a few months ago that was in response to a UT editorial, but it is still relevant:

I will give my two cents from a different perspective. I am in my last semester at UNT and I am in the process of applying to law schools. I knew this is what I wanted to do before I started at UNT my freshman year. That being said I have done a ton of research on law schools, talked to numerous professors and I have done just about everything a student could to do prepare himself for law school.

My opinion is split. I love the idea that one UNT will have a law school that can hopefully be on par with Texas Tech's. I have no doubt that after a few years it will be ahead of Texas Wesylean.

However, I agree with the article. This is not the time for UNT to start a law school. Job opportunities are bleak right now for future attorneys. And producing around 400 a year to an already bad market would hurt not only UNT law students, but the reputation of theschool.

The article is right. If you are not going to a top tier school (UT, SMU, UH, or Baylor) then you really should not go to law school (unless you are guaranteed to graduate debt free). You will be depressingly in debt and if you are LUCKY to find a job graduating from a Tier 3 or Tier 4school then you will be making a little more than a school teacher paying off a $80,000 loan. Potentially UNT law students will be bottom of the barrel to start off.

I'm not trying to be negative on UNT, obviously I'm huge supporter of my school (why else would I be on this forum) but I do not see how this can help ANYONE (except more money for UNT-Dallas).

I know it would not be practical to start a program when employment prospects getting better, but I really wish this school would start later in the future.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

[Eastwood Eagle]

Now with TAMU purchasing TexWes it will become more attractive to potential students because TAMU has the $$$ to hire better professors, provide better clinics, improve research facilaite etc...

This is not good for UNT Law, which will already face fierce competition from SMU, UT, Baylor, Tech, TexWes, OU and even UHLC for sought after jobs in the DFW area.

I have always felt bad for TexWes grads with their debt and bleak job outlooks. I don't want to feel that way for UNT students.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

http://www.star-tele...ans-to-buy.html

From article:

Regents is expected to meet later this week to take up the proposed agreement. If approved, it would be one of two public law schools in North Texas. The University of North Texas System is scheduled to open a law school in Dallas in the fall of 2014 in the Old Municipal Building in downtown Dallas to be called the UNT at Dallas College of Law. Recruiting of students won't start until fall 2013.

--

Edited June 27, 2012 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Now with TAMU purchasing TexWes it will become more attractive to potential students because TAMU has the $$$ to hire better professors, provide better clinics, improve research facilaite etc...

This is not good for UNT Law, which will already face fierce competition from SMU, UT, Baylor, Tech, TexWes, OU and even UHLC for sought after jobs in the DFW area.

I have always felt bad for TexWes grads with their debt and bleak job outlooks. I don't want to feel that way for UNT students.

The current Dallas County District Attorney is a TWU grad, I believe the previous ones were from SMU,and did some very unethical things, and locked up a lot of innocent people:

My son graduated at WTU a couple years ago and he and partner [ plus a Tulsa team ] represented the Southwest region in a national negotiation contest, WTU and Tulsa went... UT, TTU, Baylor, SMU, Houston, Tulane, etc. didn't get to go, They defeated them. My son took out SMU head to head then called me up laughing big time on how terrible they were and how mad the SMU prof was. .

____

Craig Watkins District Attorney of Dallas County, Texas Incumbent Assumed office

January 1, 2007 Preceded by Bill Hill Alma mater Texas Wesleyan University School of Law

Craig Watkins is currently the district attorney for the Dallas County, Texas, USA. He became the first African American district attorney in Texas when he was elected in 2006.

Watkins has worked to resolve cases of wrongful conviction through the use of DNA testing and the review of evidence illegally withheld from defense attorneys.

The Dallas Morning News selected Watkins as its 2008 Texan of the Year.

[Legend500]

There's a huge assumption here that the THECB (Higher Education Coordinating Board) is actually going to approve this. The last time UNT tried to buy TWU Law and A&M tried to buy South Texas, it got shot down at that stage because the Attorney General essentially decided that public universities can't use taxpayer money to buy private schools. A&M's tried to contract around it - but I think it's pretty transparent.

We're also forgetting that there is an inter-system rivalry at play here - one which will play out at the THECB and in the legislature. It's an opening salvo in the biennial battle for money and influence at the legislature - and this makes it pretty clear the the lines are going to be A&M and UH vs. UT, UNT and TTU. No way that those three systems are going to let it happen without a fight, and the only reason UH is on board is because A&M didn't try to buy South Texas again.

UNTLaw is mostly unaffected by this change. Why? Well, first the school has met all requirements to start and no further approval is needed from the state. Second, A&M Wesleyan would be a much bigger threat to Texas Tech than it would be to UNT. It's not like A&M will be massively expanding the school, it just means that a major advantage Tech had over Wesleyan (cost) will soon be gone. Third, nothing really changes - the whole "only city without a public law school" was really just marketing lingo to get it approved, and is pretty meaningless after the fact. Fourth, just because A&M is running the show (assuming it goes through) doesn't mean that the school will be any better. Anybody who picks their law school based on their undergraduate reputation is in for a world of hurt. Fifth, UNTLaw is still in downtown Dallas. That remains a massive advantage over everyone but Texas and South Texas.

There's plenty of other reasons to be unconcerned, but 5 is enough to start.

As far as the legal industry itself is concerned: the situation in Texas is not as bad as it is elsewhere in the nation. There's a whole bunch of people complaining because they thought that going to a "top-tier" school (there are none in Texas, as top tier really only means a small list of 14 schools, none closer than Chicago) guarantees them money and success. That used to seem logical, until the ABA released the first legal employment numbers for all law schools. For people who are planning on going to law school, these are the most important numbers to consider (to a lesser extent, clerkships, partners, journal citation and bar pass rates should also be considered). If someone is dumb enough to rely on US News's numbers, they shouldn't be in law school to begin with - they should consider a more simplistic profession - like animal husbandry or medicine . So what schools actually produce employable lawyers? Here's the ABA's list.

St. Mary's 78.31%

Baylor 70.06%

Texas - Austin 69.90%

South Texas 64.43%

Texas Tech 63.50%

Vanderbilt Western University (SMU) 63.24%

Houston 60.14%

Texas Southern 53.37%

Wesleyan 48.88%

Shocked the heck outta me, but any lawyer knows that it's not who gets the highest score on the bar that becomes the best lawyer, its the guy who knows what hands to shake. So congrats to the Aggies if they do get this through - they've just become the worst public law school in the state - assuming you actually want to be a lawyer when you graduate.

[Eastwood Eagle]

St. Mary's 78.31%

Baylor 70.06%

Texas - Austin 69.90%

South Texas 64.43%

Texas Tech 63.50%

Vanderbilt Western University (SMU) 63.24%

Houston 60.14%

Texas Southern 53.37%

Wesleyan 48.88%

Shocked the heck outta me, but any lawyer knows that it's not who gets the highest score on the bar that becomes the best lawyer, its the guy who knows what hands to shake. So congrats to the Aggies if they do get this through - they've just become the worst public law school in the state - assuming you actually want to be a lawyer when you graduate.

That is not a fair way for evaluating law schools. No one in their right mind would say St. Marys is better than UHLC, Baylor, Tech, SMU or UT as far as employment prospects. The four T1-T2 schools in Texas have an outstanding difference when it comes to total employment compared to the TTT and TTTT schools- not just legal employment.

Many people go to law school for various reasons- business work, clerk ship, further academia or entrepunership. You can't evaluate a school based on what percent are lawyers.

Also, if you look at the employment numbers for schools it will show that the sought after jobs (aka, high paying) go to UT, UHLC, Baylor and SMU in overwhelming numbers.

--

Screaming Eagle, I'm not saying good attorneys do not come out of these schools. Fact is MOST students get terrible jobs, if they get a job at all. I'm sure being in the top of your class and connections will land you a solid gig. Again, it's important to get a solid job, unless you are contempt with being in debt for a long time.

--

I don't want to make it seem like the caliber of school is aligned to how much money you will make. Point is, with the amount of loans students have to take out, law school is a bad economic decision unless you are going to a top Texas school with a nice scholarhsip. If not you will be in debt for a loooooong time. Which goes back to my initial point. UNT will not be a top school in Texas for a while and the students who graduate are going to be in tough shape which will hurt the reputation.

In all honesty UNT is not needed, in fact, TWU is not needed. There is an over saturation of lawyers in the metroplex, and in the country.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

[wardly]

As a UNT alumn, class of 66', I wanted us to have a public law school in DFW. As a tax payer, we now have one. I see no need for another. What is needed is a School of Pharmacy. Lets save our money and political chips to make sure that need is fullfilled.

[Texas Stranger]

Besides, who in the hell is going to hire an Aggie lawyer ?

Most Aggies think a 'lawsuit' is a cop's uniform.

[Eastwood Eagle]

As a UNT alumn, class of 66', I wanted us to have a public law school in DFW. As a tax payer, we now have one. I see no need for another. What is needed is a School of Pharmacy. Lets save our money and political chips to make sure that need is fullfilled.

No need for another?

We don't have one and TexWes is already there. It is just a simple name change for them and more $$$.

ETA- I also want to point out how stupid specialties are. Just because Aggie Law will focus in IP does mean their students will have the upper hand in getting jobs at IP firms. It is yet another way for them to attract students with phony selling points.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Eastwood Eagle

[UNT90]

The current Dallas County District Attorney is a TWU grad, I believe the previous ones were from SMU,and did some very unethical things, and locked up a lot of innocent people:

My son graduated at WTU a couple years ago and he and partner [ plus a Tulsa team ] represented the Southwest region in a national negotiation contest, WTU and Tulsa went... UT, TTU, Baylor, SMU, Houston, Tulane, etc. didn't get to go, They defeated them. My son took out SMU head to head then called me up laughing big time on how terrible they were and how mad the SMU prof was. .

____

Craig Watkins District Attorney of Dallas County, Texas Incumbent Assumed office

January 1, 2007 Preceded by Bill Hill Alma mater Texas Wesleyan University School of Law

Craig Watkins is currently the district attorney for the Dallas County, Texas, USA. He became the first African American district attorney in Texas when he was elected in 2006.

Watkins has worked to resolve cases of wrongful conviction through the use of DNA testing and the review of evidence illegally withheld from defense attorneys.

The Dallas Morning News selected Watkins as its 2008 Texan of the Year.

Law Schools are just like 4 year universities. They give you the tools, but it's up to the individual to hone those and succeed in their chosen profession. There are bad lawyers that attended Harvard Law and their are good lawyers that attended schools like Weslyan.

Weslyan has a 4 year, go at night program that attracts students with life experience. People who already have a job, but are looking to change professions or simply better their personal situation. These types are often much better prepared for the work place straight out of law school than the 24 or 25 year old who has basically done nothing but attend school their entire life.

As far as the Dallas DA is concerned, if you look at both the Dallas and Tarrant County DA's offices, you will find a big percentage of the prosecutors with Weslyan law degrees. And they often beat the crap out of your UT law grads in court.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

There's a huge assumption here that the THECB (Higher Education Coordinating Board) is actually going to approve this. The last time UNT tried to buy TWU Law and A&M tried to buy South Texas, it got shot down at that stage because the Attorney General essentially decided that public universities can't use taxpayer money to buy private schools. A&M's tried to contract around it - but I think it's pretty transparent.

We're also forgetting that there is an inter-system rivalry at play here - one which will play out at the THECB and in the legislature. It's an opening salvo in the biennial battle for money and influence at the legislature - and this makes it pretty clear the the lines are going to be A&M and UH vs. UT, UNT and TTU. No way that those three systems are going to let it happen without a fight, and the only reason UH is on board is because A&M didn't try to buy South Texas again.

UNTLaw is mostly unaffected by this change. Why? Well, first the school has met all requirements to start and no further approval is needed from the state. Second, A&M Wesleyan would be a much bigger threat to Texas Tech than it would be to UNT. It's not like A&M will be massively expanding the school, it just means that a major advantage Tech had over Wesleyan (cost) will soon be gone. Third, nothing really changes - the whole "only city without a public law school" was really just marketing lingo to get it approved, and is pretty meaningless after the fact. Fourth, just because A&M is running the show (assuming it goes through) doesn't mean that the school will be any better. Anybody who picks their law school based on their undergraduate reputation is in for a world of hurt. Fifth, UNTLaw is still in downtown Dallas. That remains a massive advantage over everyone but Texas and South Texas.

There's plenty of other reasons to be unconcerned, but 5 is enough to start.

As far as the legal industry itself is concerned: the situation in Texas is not as bad as it is elsewhere in the nation. There's a whole bunch of people complaining because they thought that going to a "top-tier" school (there are none in Texas, as top tier really only means a small list of 14 schools, none closer than Chicago) guarantees them money and success. That used to seem logical, until the ABA released the first legal employment numbers for all law schools. For people who are planning on going to law school, these are the most important numbers to consider (to a lesser extent, clerkships, partners, journal citation and bar pass rates should also be considered). If someone is dumb enough to rely on US News's numbers, they shouldn't be in law school to begin with - they should consider a more simplistic profession - like animal husbandry or medicine . So what schools actually produce employable lawyers? Here's the ABA's list.

St. Mary's 78.31%

Baylor 70.06%

Texas - Austin 69.90%

South Texas 64.43%

Texas Tech 63.50%

Vanderbilt Western University (SMU) 63.24%

Houston 60.14%

Texas Southern 53.37%

Wesleyan 48.88%

Shocked the heck outta me, but any lawyer knows that it's not who gets the highest score on the bar that becomes the best lawyer, its the guy who knows what hands to shake. So congrats to the Aggies if they do get this through - they've just become the worst public law school in the state - assuming you actually want to be a lawyer when you graduate.

I have idea what that list is but almost always baylor has the highest Bar exam rates..... I know a lot of lawyers in West Texas towns and they don't have much respect for SMU and very few are out here. The time my son took the Bar , Texas, SMU, WTU were very similiar [within 2% of each other ] on passing rates and Tech was down some that exam.. Texas Southern is consistantly pretty bad. My friends say SMU is ok if you stay near Dallas, not so much otherwise... no idea why. Your Texas Wesleyian comment is way off.. Several aren't even close.

Edited June 28, 2012 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66