Is this the greatest UNT team on paper ever?

Cooley · June 28, 2012

Summer - 1978

MeanGreenMusic · June 28, 2012

Nice post. Justin* Patton, though.

foutsrouts · June 28, 2012

The 2012 team has yet to prove itself so I'm not going to answer the question in regard to what team is/was the best definitively, but I have a hard time believing that this is not the best team ON PAPER to ever suit up at North Texas. OVERALL, athletes are physically bigger, stronger, and more polished these days, and I just couldn't see that '88 team or even the Lyons led teams competing with these guys.

These thoughts are a complete generalization, because I know that there were many athletes from yesteryear who could not only compete in today's game, but could tear it up with the training and nutritional advantages that many players get these days. About the only advantage I see for the players back in the day, is that they were damn tough dudes overall.

BTW, I go back to the late Blakeley teams, and my first NT BB game to witness was Depaul

GrandGreen · June 28, 2012

Another thought on teams on paper, the 2010 team would be hard to beat. Three different players on the team were picked by someone to be pre-season Belt MVP in Thompson, Odufawa and White. That team due partially to injuries and a short bench ended up being a major disappointment based on their potential but on paper they should have been great.

The argument about todays athletes vs yesteryear, is a fruitless pursuit. It like saying the 2012 Astros could beat the 1927 Yankess, yes they probably could but I don't anyone would argue they are a better team on the field or on paper.

Edited June 28, 2012 by GrandGreen

MDH · June 28, 2012

Another thought on teams on paper, the 2010 team would be hard to beat. Three different players on the team were picked by someone to be pre-season Belt MVP in Thompson, Olawale and White. That team due partially to injuries and a short bench ended up being a major disappointment based on their potential but on paper they should have been great.

Ola-who?

Edited June 28, 2012 by MDH

greenminer · June 28, 2012

Ola-who?

Ola-jawhat?

Greenhorn · June 28, 2012

Yes it is. You can argue about teams from decades ago, but the reality is athletes are bigger and stronger today. Plus Mitchell pushes this team over anyone in the past. Pretty simple to me..

risinggreen · June 28, 2012

Got to disagree to some extent, that team was much better than you seem to be saying. They sailed through the Southland with only two away loses. Their OC record was horrible, but JJ would have croaked at their schedule: Baylor, Missouri, Co State, S Miss, N Mex St, Long Beach St, New Mexico,. They lose to North Carolina 83-65 but their nerves got the best of them as they were the much quicker team and missed lay up after lay up and caved late.

You are comparing what you expect of this year team with what actually happened. That team was not utra deep but it had great quickness and had several players other than the three you named that good play. Kelvin Gulley, Deon Hunter and Ricky Robertson were all quick guards and Wendel Williams, Ronnie Morgan and Worrell were solid in the front court. Tim Duryea and Adrian Choplick provided good depth and both became very good college coaches. Robert Greene and William Smith could also play. Dave Whittington at 6'8 far from being skinny and added muscle to the team when needed.

I stated that the current team has a chance to be the best, but a lot of players are going to have to improve to be better than the 1988 team. Mitchell is the only player on the current team that is obviously better than the 1988 players. Hunter was a better point than Jones was last year, he ran the team better and was a better shooter. Morgan was actually more effective around the basket than Mitchell was. Worrell was a much better player than Niko, Holmen or J. Williams. Robertson and A. Williams are actually close, Robertson was maybe a little quicker but both shined on the defensive end.

We are comparing a very young team of NT in 2012 with a much more veteran team and the current team has great potential and should get much stronger. However, sans Mitchell, the current team IMO would be a big underdog it they played the 1988 equivalent.

???? I'm sorry, and with all respect to RM (and I respect him very much), TM would eat RM's lunch on both ends of the court. That would probably be true even if RM brought Bobo with him. There is just no comparison when you match TM's foot speed, hops, athleticism, and skills to a guy who was basically a strong and heavy six foot six post player who was listed at six eight. I won't even get started on comparisons between the other guys.

meanrob · June 28, 2012

Burying the lead.

We had a Weasel Johnson?

edcollopy · June 28, 2012

Why would you zone if you think we can't shoot from the outside...

Why would the other team not pack a zone against our offense if we're not threat to shoot consistently outside. That is what alot of teams do against the lakers since they haven't had a good outside shooter since Byron Scott 20yrs ago.

GrandGreen · June 28, 2012

???? I'm sorry, and with all respect to RM (and I respect him very much), TM would eat RM's lunch on both ends of the court. That would probably be true even if RM brought Bobo with him. There is just no comparison when you match TM's foot speed, hops, athleticism, and skills to a guy who was basically a strong and heavy six foot six post player who was listed at six eight. I won't even get started on comparisons between the other guys.

I said Morgan was more effective around the basket, there is no comparison in talent level. Morgan had a more developed inside offensive game and was Mitchell's equal in rebounding despite seldom getting rim level.

The original question was on paper has there been a better team and the answer is several, but the 1988 team was not one of them. They were almost the opposite. A fat maybe 6'5 center in Morgan, a short point guard in Hunter, a walk on found playing recreation ball at the other guard in Robertson. Wendel Williams was a very athletic wiry 6'7 player and Worrell was a lightly recruited player from North Carolina who got better ever year. Whittington, Choplick and Duryea were your basic bit players who provided a pretty good bench.

I guess if you are comparing what may be to what was, you can make up any scenario you want. There a lot of question marks on the current team. I do think they can be the best team ever at NT primarily based on MItchell but take him away from this team and I doubt they would even be predicted to be in the first half of the conference.

Stan R · June 28, 2012

Very interesting historical perspective Cooley. Appreciate it!

greenminer · June 28, 2012

The more I have become familiar with our long-time fans (and hearing their stories), the more I realize NT's past is not necessarily one of losing; rather, one of incredible teams and athletes coupled with crappy administrative decisions and piss poor timing.

Edited June 28, 2012 by greenminer

GreenFlag · June 28, 2012

Got to disagree to some extent, that team was much better than you seem to be saying. They sailed through the Southland with only two away loses. Their OC record was horrible, but JJ would have croaked at their schedule: Baylor, Missouri, Co State, S Miss, N Mex St, Long Beach St, New Mexico,. They lose to North Carolina 83-65 but their nerves got the best of them as they were the much quicker team and missed lay up after lay up and caved late.

You are comparing what you expect of this year team with what actually happened. That team was not utra deep but it had great quickness and had several players other than the three you named that good play. Kelvin Gulley, Deon Hunter and Ricky Robertson were all quick guards and Wendel Williams, Ronnie Morgan and Worrell were solid in the front court. Tim Duryea and Adrian Choplick provided good depth and both became very good college coaches. Robert Greene and William Smith could also play. Dave Whittington at 6'8 far from being skinny and added muscle to the team when needed.

I stated that the current team has a chance to be the best, but a lot of players are going to have to improve to be better than the 1988 team. Mitchell is the only player on the current team that is obviously better than the 1988 players. Hunter was a better point than Jones was last year, he ran the team better and was a better shooter. Morgan was actually more effective around the basket than Mitchell was. Worrell was a much better player than Niko, Holmen or J. Williams. Robertson and A. Williams are actually close, Robertson was maybe a little quicker but both shined on the defensive end.

We are comparing a very young team of NT in 2012 with a much more veteran team and the current team has great potential and should get much stronger. However, sans Mitchell, the current team IMO would be a big underdog it they played the 1988 equivalent.

I noticed a big difference in the type of athlete on the floor between the SLC and the SBC days with the SBC being a big step up. Of course there are good SLC teams these days i.e. UTA this year and SFA has had a nice run but overall the talent level is huge. Kinda like the difference in the SBC and the Big XII. I know we played a tougher OOC schedule back then but we always had a horrible record going into conference play. We have been far more competitive against the LBSU's and Colorado State's of the world in the last 5-6 years. So much so we are bitching when we do lose one of those games. I say all of this going back to - no way the '88 team hangs with next years team even without Tony Mitchell.

I do believe Cooley when he says the teams of the mid 70's were so much better. The reason is we were coming out of the MVC - a top level conference for basketball. Even though we were pretty much a mid to lower level MVC team, a lower level MVC team had better players than most conferences i.e. the SWC. The best players want to play against the best competition. Pecking order. We should see better athletes in general when in CUSA.

We were the class of the SLC in '88 and '89 but it was the SLC. Solid bench with Keevie and Whittington? I don't think so. The most solid thing Whittington did was propose to his fiance at the Super Pit. Remeber that? I can't remember if it was during or after - maybe halftime.

GrandGreen · June 28, 2012

I noticed a big difference in the type of athlete on the floor between the SLC and the SBC days with the SBC being a big step up. Of course there are good SLC teams these days i.e. UTA this year and SFA has had a nice run but overall the talent level is huge. Kinda like the difference in the SBC and the Big XII. I know we played a tougher OOC schedule back then but we always had a horrible record going into conference play. We have been far more competitive against the LBSU's and Colorado State's of the world in the last 5-6 years. So much so we are bitching when we do lose one of those games. I say all of this going back to - no way the '88 team hangs with next years team even without Tony Mitchell.

I do believe Cooley when he says the teams of the mid 70's were so much better. The reason is we were coming out of the MVC - a top level conference for basketball. Even though we were pretty much a mid to lower level MVC team, a lower level MVC team had better players than most conferences i.e. the SWC. The best players want to play against the best competition. Pecking order. We should see better athletes in general when in CUSA.

We were the class of the SLC in '88 and '89 but it was the SLC. Solid bench with Keevie and Whittington? I don't think so. The most solid thing Whittington did was propose to his fiance at the Super Pit. Remeber that? I can't remember if it was during or after - maybe halftime.

Yes, I noticed how NT completely outclassed UTA was last year.

I am not sure what the debate is, if you are saying the potential of next years team is better than 1988, there is no disagreement. I have stated multiple times that next years team could be the best ever at NT. If you are stating that last year team was better than the 1988 team. No it was not. Maybe if everyone had been eligible but that didn't happen.

Some fans seem to think NT was a lot better than they were the last two years. NT was far from a power house, those were middle of the Belt teams that make strong tournament runs but lost in the finals.

Yes, I do remember Whittington's proposal also that he didn't get a lot of minutes but he was a bull in the china shop when he did get to play.

Edited June 28, 2012 by GrandGreen