Is this the greatest UNT team on paper ever?

[Harry]

I think it is. I certainly will confess that football is my forte but this basketball season is...let's just say potentially unbelievable...I think it could be something very special and can't wait. GMG

[RossDrapalski]

I love basketball!

[Cooley]

Not even close

[greenminer]

Not even close

I would be interested in further discussion here. Maybe a separate thread dedicated to top teams. Seems like there have been plenty of "best player" discussions, but not enough about best teams.

[ADLER]

Is this our greatest team ever, at least on paper? I don't know, but it sure does seem to have more potential than any team in the last 30 years. This team has several players, that with the right effort, will get a chance with the NBA.

[oldschoollefty]

Not even close

Prove it.

[UNTcrazy727]

Yes it is. It's laughable to think otherwise

[Green Lantern]

Not even close

Not asking in a smart ass way at all, but please add additional details to your statement? Seriously want to hear your thoughts on the best NT team.

[greenminer]

Yes it is. It's laughable to think otherwise

"I grew up in Europe, where history comes from."

[NT03]

I would really love to hear from all the guys who were able to watch during the Missouri Valley days.

Also, can someone post what our attendence records are for a game / season ?

[chrisfisher]

Yes. Tony Mitchell alone, never mind Chris Jones, Roger Franklin, Jordan Williams and others, is the highest rated player ever to play b-ball for us. Heck, I think he was one of if not the highest rated player to ever play in the Sunbelt. Star ratings when they came to UNT: Tony 5*, Roger Franklin 4*, Chris Jones 3* (probably should have been 4*), and Jordan 3*. I cannot recall the others... Tell me when we have had a better team on paper?

[GrandGreen]

Best team I have seen was the 18-8 squad in the MVC days. Joe Hamilton and Crest Whitaker were the stars. Had no height but ran like no other NT team. Fast break and wall to wall press were traits of that team.

The early Blakeley teams primarily recruited by Robbins and Tubbs certainly equaled the current team in talent. Fred Mitchell and Melvin Davis were both first team all state players ( 5 man teams not the bloated all state teams of today) of the highest class in Texas high schools. Kenneth Williams was a second teamer. Terry Bailey was an juco All American. Carl Jones was an excellent shooting guard who transferred to NT. Weasel Johnson the point was as quick as anybody at the point. Overall although Mitchell should be superior athletically to any of these players, the overall depth of this team was much better than the current team.

The other team that comes to mind is the Gales one NCAA tourney team. Phillip Worrell, Morgan, Deon Hunter, Robinson were not bad. Morgan was a beast on the boards, Robinson and Hunter were super quick, and Worrell was the best overall player on the team. Not nearly as deep as the current team but they played together well.

IMO, Joe Hamilton and Kenneth Lyons were the best players I've seen at NT. Mitchell is a physical freak, but he has to up his game to match those two. Hamilton was as good an outside shooter as I've seen at NT and was a great point with great quickness. Lyons just refused to lose, as intense as anyone I've seen at NT.

Mitchell should become the best player and the team should be the best ever at NT. However, they have to substantially improve to accomplish these goals.

[island eagle]

Best team I have seen was the 18-8 squad in the MVC days. Joe Hamilton and Crest Whitaker were the stars. Had no height but ran like no other NT team. Fast break and wall to wall press were traits of that team.

The early Blakeley teams primarily recruited by Robbins and Tubbs certainly equaled the current team in talent. Fred Mitchell and Melvin Davis were both first team all state players ( 5 man teams not the bloated all state teams of today) of the highest class in Texas high schools. Kenneth Williams was a second teamer. Terry Bailey was an juco All American. Carl Jones was an excellent shooting guard who transferred to NT. Weasel Johnson the point was as quick as anybody at the point. Overall although Mitchell should be superior athletically to any of these players, the overall depth of this team was much better than the current team.

The other team that comes to mind is the Gales one NCAA tourney team. Phillip Worrell, Morgan, Deon Hunter, Robinson were not bad. Morgan was a beast on the boards, Robinson and Hunter were super quick, and Worrell was the best overall player on the team. Not nearly as deep as the current team but they played together well.

IMO, Joe Hamilton and Kenneth Lyons were the best players I've seen at NT. Mitchell is a physical freak, but he has to up his game to match those two. Hamilton was as good an outside shooter as I've seen at NT and was a great point with great quickness. Lyons just refused to lose, as intense as anyone I've seen at NT.

Mitchell should become the best player and the team should be the best ever at NT. However, they have to substantially improve to accomplish these goals.

I agree, the Hamilton and Whitaker duo made for a great team and were lots of fun to watch. If they had more of an inside presence they would have been sweet 16 material for sure.

[UNTexas]

"I grew up in Europe, where history comes from."

I don't even know what that means.

[drex]

I've followed the Mean Green since 1966 and the first three Blakeley years might have been the best ever. However, don't forget that it was not uncommon for us to beat nationally ranked teams in the old pit in the late sixties. I know we knocked off Bradley and Drake in Denton...both were nationally ranked at the time. Also, don't forget that the teams from the Missouri Valley in the late sixties were on par with the current ACC teams. It was not uncommon for four teams from the Valley in those days to be nationally ranked. Beating nationally ranked teams has not happened in a long time for us...the last one was Arizona State when Blakeley coached. Now we seldom even have any nationally ranked teams come to Denton, which is a big embarrassment, in my opinion. This upcoming team could be the very best...time will tell. While Tony deserves all the fanfare, don't forget that we had Lee Winfield in late sixties who went on to a long pro career with the Sonics and Joe Hamilton was on the Dallas Chapparal roster in the ABA and Kenneth Lyons was drafted by the Philadelphia Seventy Sixers. Lyons is also a member of the 10k club and he on a very prestigious list.

[golfingomez]

I think it is. I certainly will confess that football is my forte but this basketball season is...let's just say potentially unbelievable...I think it could be something very special and can't wait. GMG

this is really tough... I've only seen our team play on hardwood... I'm not sure how they would react to playing on paper

[NT1978]

this is really tough... I've only seen our team play on hardwood... I'm not sure how they would react to playing on paper

I am sure they would tear it up.

[edcollopy]

we certainly have alot of athleticism and excitement, but unless Williams shoots outside better..we'll have a bigtime achilles heal. In today's dribble, drive, and kick offenses, you have to have some decent perimeter shooters....not sure we have that. I would zone this team to death.

[UNT90]

we certainly have alot of athleticism and excitement, but unless Williams shoots outside better..we'll have a bigtime achilles heal. In today's dribble, drive, and kick offenses, you have to have some decent perimeter shooters....not sure we have that. I would zone this team to death.

Why would you zone if you think we can't shoot from the outside...

[GreenFlag]

Best team I have seen was the 18-8 squad in the MVC days. Joe Hamilton and Crest Whitaker were the stars. Had no height but ran like no other NT team. Fast break and wall to wall press were traits of that team.

The early Blakeley teams primarily recruited by Robbins and Tubbs certainly equaled the current team in talent. Fred Mitchell and Melvin Davis were both first team all state players ( 5 man teams not the bloated all state teams of today) of the highest class in Texas high schools. Kenneth Williams was a second teamer. Terry Bailey was an juco All American. Carl Jones was an excellent shooting guard who transferred to NT. Weasel Johnson the point was as quick as anybody at the point. Overall although Mitchell should be superior athletically to any of these players, the overall depth of this team was much better than the current team.

The other team that comes to mind is the Gales one NCAA tourney team. Phillip Worrell, Morgan, Deon Hunter, Robinson were not bad. Morgan was a beast on the boards, Robinson and Hunter were super quick, and Worrell was the best overall player on the team. Not nearly as deep as the current team but they played together well.

IMO, Joe Hamilton and Kenneth Lyons were the best players I've seen at NT. Mitchell is a physical freak, but he has to up his game to match those two. Hamilton was as good an outside shooter as I've seen at NT and was a great point with great quickness. Lyons just refused to lose, as intense as anyone I've seen at NT.

Mitchell should become the best player and the team should be the best ever at NT. However, they have to substantially improve to accomplish these goals.

I Loved that team. Morgan was a beast on the boards for sure and Worrell was a great overall player. Having said that - no way that team hangs with this years team. The thing I noticed then was how scrawny (sans Morgan) our players were against even the SMU's of the world. Our tall players were toothpicks.

That team rolled in the Southland but lost a great majority of games in OOC. Our record was 17-14 for the year. We won 12 Southland regular season games and 2 more in the Southland Conference tourny. So...14 or our 17 wins were against SLC teams. We were 3-12 in out of conference games.

Jones > Hunter

Mitchell > Worrell

Morgan > inside presence we don't have - yet

Every other player on next years team > the best player in '88 not named Worrell, Hunter, Morgan

[GrandGreen]

I Loved that team. Morgan was a beast on the boards for sure and Worrell was a great overall player. Having said that - no way that team hangs with this years team. The thing I noticed then was how scrawny (sans Morgan) our players were against even the SMU's of the world. Our tall players were toothpicks

That team rolled in the Southland but lost a great majority of games in OOC. Our record was 17-14 for the year. We won 12 Southland regular season games and 2 more in the Southland Conference tourny. So...14 or our 17 wins were against SLC teams. We were 3-12 in out of conference games.

Jones > Hunter

Mitchell > Worrell

Morgan > inside presence we don't have - yet

Every other player on next years team > the best player in '88 not named Worrell, Hunter, Morgan

Got to disagree to some extent, that team was much better than you seem to be saying. They sailed through the Southland with only two away loses. Their OC record was horrible, but JJ would have croaked at their schedule: Baylor, Missouri, Co State, S Miss, N Mex St, Long Beach St, New Mexico,. They lose to North Carolina 83-65 but their nerves got the best of them as they were the much quicker team and missed lay up after lay up and caved late.

You are comparing what you expect of this year team with what actually happened. That team was not utra deep but it had great quickness and had several players other than the three you named that good play. Kelvin Gulley, Deon Hunter and Ricky Robertson were all quick guards and Wendel Williams, Ronnie Morgan and Worrell were solid in the front court. Tim Duryea and Adrian Choplick provided good depth and both became very good college coaches. Robert Greene and William Smith could also play. Dave Whittington at 6'8 far from being skinny and added muscle to the team when needed.

I stated that the current team has a chance to be the best, but a lot of players are going to have to improve to be better than the 1988 team. Mitchell is the only player on the current team that is obviously better than the 1988 players. Hunter was a better point than Jones was last year, he ran the team better and was a better shooter. Morgan was actually more effective around the basket than Mitchell was. Worrell was a much better player than Niko, Holmen or J. Williams. Robertson and A. Williams are actually close, Robertson was maybe a little quicker but both shined on the defensive end.

We are comparing a very young team of NT in 2012 with a much more veteran team and the current team has great potential and should get much stronger. However, sans Mitchell, the current team IMO would be a big underdog it they played the 1988 equivalent.

[Cooley]

I can't speak to teams prior to 1975-1976. On paper, our current group, looks to be as good or better than any team since Blakely's teams of the mid to late 70's. The 75-76 group (22-4) was clearly the best; with the most talent.

Current Roster/Team vs. 1975-1976 Roster/Team

2011-2012

4^th place (West Division)

Sunbelt Conference tournament finalist

9-7 Conference Record; 18-14 Overall

Avg. attendance of over 4,000 (student enrollment of 36,000; Denton population of 113,000

Estimated ranking in Texas vs. other Texas programs:

1) Baylor

2) Texas A&M

3) Texas

4) UTA (28 point loss)

5) Texas Tech (loss)

Tournament Bid(s) – None

65 Team NCAA Field

32 Team (NIT)

16 Team (CBI)

32 Team (CIT)

1975-1976

Last National Ranking (17th or 18th)

Consensus Best Team in Texas (Texas Sportswriters);

Ahead of Houston, Baylor, Texas & Texas A&M

1) North Texas

2) West Texas State

22-4 Record (School Record at the time)

Tournament Bid(s) – None

Team finished 22-4 but as an independent, was not invited to the 32 team NCAA tournament or 12 team NIT. No other tournaments existed. Outrage in Denton!

Keep in mind the era this team participated in:

No PC’s (internet – Facebook, Twitter)

No Rivals Rating

No AAU ball

No Summer camps in Texas

No Texas Hoops.com

No You-Tube/BallisLife video

Tony Mitchell is the only current member who starts on the1975-1976 team; additionally, no current bench player plays ahead of the 75 bench.

Player comparisons

PG – Weasel Johnson > Chris Jones

Earl King > Trey Norris, PJ Hardwick

SG – Carl Jones > Brandon Walton

Danny Kaspar = Alzee Williams

SF Fred Mitchell > Jeffrey Patton, Jordan Willams, Roger Franklin

Waymond Lister > Jeffrey Patton, Jordan Williams, Roger Franklin

PF Terry Bailey > Niko Sto,

C Kenneth Williams > Keith Coleman

Kenneth Williams – 1^st Team All-State Class 4A (State semi-finals); Led nation in rebounding

Weasel Johnson, All Conference McLennon JC

Earl King, All-State (Chicago, Ill)

Fred Mitchell – Player of the year (4A) One publication; MVP –TX HS All Star Game

Waymond Lister – 1^st Team All-State (MVP – Texas HS All Star Game)

Terry Baily – All-American, Henderson County JC. (Texas Eastern Conference 1^st team)

Melvin Davis – All State Greenville HS; NBA

If Rivals existed in 1975:

HS Recruits:

Fred Mitchell – 3 Star (Top 10 State Ranking)

Kenneth Williams – 4 Star (Top 10 State Ranking)

Waymond Lister – 3 Star (Top 20 State Ranking)

Melvin Davis - 4 Star (Top 10 State Ranking)

We added in 76-77, Jon Manning and Charles McMllian (SOC All-Time Great)

McMillian was #1 ranked recruit in Dallas and 1^st Team All-State (State Runner up 4A) Juco, All-American from Tyler Junior College. National recruit.

Team finished 22-4 but was an independent and was not invited to a 32 team NCAA tournament due to automatic spots for conference champs. (or 16 team NIT. No other tournaments existed.

Average attendance was about 5,000 with a student enrollment of 17,000 and Denton population of 40,000

Fred Mitchell

http://amarillo.com/stories/062802/spo_forhallof.shtml

http://amarillo.com/stories/012504/mor_pshpast.shtml

Melvin “Lurch” Davis

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19780708&id=cyMhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=emcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3747,3197206

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19780907&id=5YBRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_xEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6674,1183289

Kenneth Williams

http://www.unt.edu/50yearsofprogress/athleticeventbreakers.htm

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=ac-7160366

Texas HS All Star Game MVP’s

17-All-Star Narratives - DrBillyWilbanks.com

1971 – Carl Jones

1974 – Fred Mitchell

1975 – Waymond Lister

The 1975-1976 teams beats the current team 8 out of 10 games; average of 8-10 point victories. I’m all for our current guys advancing to the final four and all but enough of this best ever talk.

[GrandGreen]

I can't speak to teams prior to 1975-1976. On paper, our current group, looks to be as good or better than any team since Blakely's teams of the mid to late 70's. The 75-76 group (22-4) was clearly the best; with the most talent.

Current Roster/Team vs. 1975-1976 Roster/Team

2011-2012

4^th place (West Division)

Sunbelt Conference tournament finalist

9-7 Conference Record; 18-14 Overall

Avg. attendance of over 4,000 (student enrollment of 36,000; Denton population of 113,000

Estimated ranking in Texas vs. other Texas programs:

1) Baylor

2) Texas A&M

3) Texas

4) UTA (28 point loss)

5) Texas Tech (loss)

Tournament Bid(s) – None

65 Team NCAA Field

32 Team (NIT)

16 Team (CBI)

32 Team (CIT)

1975-1976

Last National Ranking (17th or 18th)

Consensus Best Team in Texas (Texas Sportswriters);

Ahead of Houston, Baylor, Texas & Texas A&M

1) North Texas

2) West Texas State

22-4 Record (School Record at the time)

Tournament Bid(s) – None

Team finished 22-4 but as an independent, was not invited to the 32 team NCAA tournament or 12 team NIT. No other tournaments existed. Outrage in Denton!

Keep in mind the era this team participated in:

No PC’s (internet – Facebook, Twitter)

No Rivals Rating

No AAU ball

No Summer camps in Texas

No Texas Hoops.com

No You-Tube/BallisLife video

Tony Mitchell is the only current member who starts on the1975-1976 team; additionally, no current bench player plays ahead of the 75 bench.

Player comparisons

PG – Weasel Johnson > Chris Jones

Earl King > Trey Norris, PJ Hardwick

SG – Carl Jones > Brandon Walton

Danny Kaspar = Alzee Williams

SF Fred Mitchell > Jeffrey Patton, Jordan Willams, Roger Franklin

Waymond Lister > Jeffrey Patton, Jordan Williams, Roger Franklin

PF Terry Bailey > Niko Sto,

C Kenneth Williams > Keith Coleman

Kenneth Williams – 1^st Team All-State Class 4A (State semi-finals); Led nation in rebounding

Weasel Johnson, All Conference McLennon JC

Earl King, All-State (Chicago, Ill)

Fred Mitchell – Player of the year (4A) One publication; MVP –TX HS All Star Game

Waymond Lister – 1^st Team All-State (MVP – Texas HS All Star Game)

Terry Baily – All-American, Henderson County JC. (Texas Eastern Conference 1^st team)

Melvin Davis – All State Greenville HS; NBA

If Rivals existed in 1975:

HS Recruits:

Fred Mitchell – 3 Star (Top 10 State Ranking)

Kenneth Williams – 4 Star (Top 10 State Ranking)

Waymond Lister – 3 Star (Top 20 State Ranking)

Melvin Davis - 4 Star (Top 10 State Ranking)

We added in 76-77, Jon Manning and Charles McMllian (SOC All-Time Great)

McMillian was #1 ranked recruit in Dallas and 1^st Team All-State (State Runner up 4A) Juco, All-American from Tyler Junior College. National recruit.

Team finished 22-4 but was an independent and was not invited to a 32 team NCAA tournament due to automatic spots for conference champs. (or 16 team NIT. No other tournaments existed.

Average attendance was about 5,000 with a student enrollment of 17,000 and Denton population of 40,000

Fred Mitchell

http://amarillo.com/stories/062802/spo_forhallof.shtml

http://amarillo.com/...r_pshpast.shtml

Melvin “Lurch” Davis

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19780708&id=cyMhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=emcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3747,3197206

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19780907&id=5YBRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_xEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6674,1183289

Kenneth Williams

http://www.unt.edu/50yearsofprogress/athleticeventbreakers.htm

http://rivals.yahoo....slug=ac-7160366

Texas HS All Star Game MVP’s

17-All-Star Narratives - DrBillyWilbanks.com

1971 – Carl Jones

1974 – Fred Mitchell

1975 – Waymond Lister

The 1975-1976 teams beats the current team 8 out of 10 games; average of 8-10 point victories. I’m all for our current guys advancing to the final four and all but enough of this best ever talk.

Excellent write up, and an amazing thing is that Bobby Iverson could have been on that team if he had stayed. He was a legit HS All American and may have been a bigger signing than Tony Mitchell.

[emmitt01]

Why would you zone if you think we can't shoot from the outside...

And I thought the lid was on this can of worms

[greenminer]

Cooley, what year did you finish at UNT?