The missing piece (winning) is still haunting UNT

[Harry]

A couple of people have e-mailed me over the last few days to bring up a question about UNT’s place in the college football world that I thought would make a perfect blog post.

It seems like a lot of UNT fans are wondering when the school’s football program is going to see the mass influx of talent that people have been waiting on for years now.

I can understand why that expectation is there.

UNT has a terrific new football stadium, arguably the most accomplished football coach to come through town since Hayden Fry in Dan McCarney in place and the Mean Green is headed to Conference USA. UNT has more to sell than ever before.

The expectation is that the highly rated Metroplex recruits should come rolling into town any time now.

That could soon be the case, but it won’t be until UNT can fill the one big void in its sales pitch.

To be blunt about it – UNT has to win.

In UNT’s case that is what has always been the key, just like it is for most programs.

Read more: http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/2012/06/the-missing-piece-winning-is-still-haunting-unt.html/

[casual fan]

There are two ways to go about it.

1. Play the hardest possible schedule we can play. Beat the big SEC & Big 12 teams on the road and prove to everyone that we are big and bad. Then recruits will flock to us and the stadium will be full for our 5 home games each year.

or

2. Play 6 home games. Play beatable FBS teams. For once try the path of least resistance against the easiest schedule possible. An early win against against UTSA or TS for example, would breath life into the schedule. An early bad beating by LSU or Alabama hurts not only our record but our home attendance and our recruiting down the road. Recruits want to play on a winning team. Fans want to see a team that is winning games.

A team can play LSU and get beat by 30 points, make a lot of improvements, and still get beat by 30 points. You just see their starters longer.

I don't get too giddy over a moral victory as it is just another L in the loss column.

[Harry]

Look at the schools in the Belt that had success last season. Most if not all of them, had much softer non conf schedules which led to a better record which leads to bowl eligibility etc etc... I think there is a happy medium. I don't think we need to be LSU's sacrificial lamb. I do think we should play Texas and Texas A$M etc for those necessary money games.

[GrandGreen]

Obvious winning is important but it is not absolutely necessary to boost recruiting. Vito's hero Dickey recruited the 2000 class the best maybe ever at NT after seasons of 3-8, 2-9 and 3-8. That team included 6 state 100 picks in Gardner, Buckles, Kennedy, Ridgeway, Taylor and Hall. All with the exception of Ridgeway' who was actually scheduled to start his second year and than disappeared, turned out to be super players for NT. Add to that in the same class Zuniga, Spencer, Brewster and Kadulbar; all multiple year all conference players and it is obvious that class was special. The question how did that class develop with a bad losing record, poor facilities, and a recent move into the Belt?

NT has not come anywhere close to that class in the last decade plus. I have no idea how that class was recruited but it does illustrate that it is certainly possible to excel in recruiting despite losing records. I don't expect miracles out of McCarney and staff; but this program doesn't need excuses; it need substantial steady improvement in recruiting. I recognize that NT has a lot of baggage from bad football but if a class like 2000 could happen playing at Fouts with one of the worst paid staffs in football, it certainly not impossible to rapidly improve that element of the program.

[Harry]

Obvious winning is important but it is not absolutely necessary to boost recruiting. Vito's hero Dickey recruited the 2000 class the best maybe ever at NT after seasons of 3-8, 2-9 and 3-8. That team included 6 state 100 picks in Gardner, Buckles, Kennedy, Ridgeway, Taylor and Hall. All with the exception of Ridgeway' who was actually scheduled to start his second year and than disappeared, turned out to be super players for NT. Add to that in the same class Zuniga, Spencer, Brewster and Kadulbar; all multiple year all conference players and it is obvious that class was special. The question how did that class develop with a bad losing record, poor facilities, and a recent move into the Belt?

NT has not come anywhere close to that class in the last decade plus. I have no idea how that class was recruited but it does illustrate that it is certainly possible to excel in recruiting despite losing records. I don't expect miracles out of McCarney and staff; but this program doesn't need excuses; it need substantial steady improvement in recruiting. I recognize that NT has a lot of baggage from bad football but if a class like 2000 could happen playing at Fouts with one of the worst paid staffs in football, it certainly not impossible to rapidly improve that element of the program.

This has come up a lot, and I don't take anything away from that 2000 class it was a great one; HOWEVER keep in mind, at that time Rivals and the other recruiting services were in their infancy. Most of the top 100 lists were based off of local newspapers and input from high school coaches NOT college coaches. Rivals started the process of viewing prospects through the eyes of the COLLEGE offer perspective not just the player or high school coach or newspaper writer. Possibly a bigger development has been the advent of the BCS system which I believe began in 1999 or thereabouts. Being in a BCS league gave teams from out of state that never recruited Texas well the opportunity to do very well in Texas. I'll give you a couple of examples from that class. Randy Gardner and Taylor Casey were from West Texas and both did not get offers from Tech. Casey visited Baylor but they did not offer. Brandon Kennedy had offers from SMU and Tulsa. SMU was still in post death penalty academic mode and required BK to complete a written essay and meet with and academic committee before he would be admitted. BK passed on that. Tulsa basically camped out in Terrell prior to signing day but then Coach Ken Burns was running the program into the ground and couldn't close the deal. Scott Hall was invited to Texas A&M but they wanted him as a defensive back and he wanted to play QB. You didn't see schools like Syracuse, Wisconsin, etc dipping into Texas. Also Rice, Tulsa and SMU were struggling in the WAC --- they didn't join CUSA until 2005 and all three benefitted from that move. Back in those days you sort of had the Big 12 teams in Texas and everyone else. TCU had just started their move and SMU, Houston, Rice, and Tulsa were down.

That 2000 class was earned through HARD work, relationships and a lot of optimism. It was truly Dickey's finest hour because he didn't have a great record and had lousy facilities but he and Kenny Evans were great salesmen and built great relationships with recruits and their families. The irony of all this is that Ramon Flanigan recruited Brandon Kennedy and was along with Kenny Evans perhaps our best recruiter at that particular time. Here's another example, Michael Pruitt, the talented defensive tackle from NEO who it didn't seem like we had a chance on ( he was solidly committed to Kansas) ended up choosing North Texas because we kept building a relationship with him despite the fact he was committed elsewhere. Dickey also had a good sense of how to build a good program, he would go after 6-3, 6-4 athletes who could run and play multiple positions. If he had a key need like rush defensive end, he would dip into the juco ranks. After we were winning Sun Belt titles he would pick up the best Sun Belt available offensive linemen to fill out the line giving us an edge against the rest of the conference. He always got good talent in Houston because of Asst. Coach Bruce Bell and his relationships there.

Here's what I am hearing and we all have heard, the outside perception of North Texas is not good, some of that is Dodge tenure but some of it is our adminstrations lack of commitment etc etc. Now the GOOD news is, if we can get a good prospect and his family to visit and they see the buildings, the coaches, the city, academic programs etc they are blown away. The move to C-USA was a huge step in removing that perception. A winning season, not necessarily a bowl year, will be the next step to land the better recruits and I agree 100% with Vito it is a necessary one.

[GrayEagle]

It will take time to repair the ills of the past seven years so that method of selling recruits is out of the question. So you have to sell them with what you have and where you want to be. Also, on how you've made improvements to turn the program around and how you need them to be a part of it. In other words, if you don't have steak to sell, sell them sizzle.

We have so many things to sell. A nice-looking, if not beautiful campus. A varied curricula. Facilities. Improvement. A new, improved conference. Coaches. Plans. For the first time in a long time, support of the administration. Both the number and quality of the alumni that have attended North Texas. Location. Future schedules. The list goes on and on.

A winning tradition is great but building or rebuilding something is often more satisfying than keeping a tradition alive.

[shaft]

I think were missing the boat on this thread.

Where is UNT in the big scheme of things?

Where it should be. We made the commitment to a new stadium, better coach and salary, so we reap the reward of a better conference.

What missing?

It's not just the volume of wins, it's the quality of wins. Last season we did what every team should have done; beat the teams we are better than. We beat the teams we had better records than, we lost to teams with better records than us. It takes that type of consistency to improve to the point where you start beating teams with better records.

Payday body bag games.

We don't schedule those games to prove we can hang with the SEC, we take those games because we need the check.

The 2000 class.

That group was a under the radar bunch. They fit Dickey's mantra of guys other school's didn't want or didn't know how to use.

Edited June 9, 2012 by shaft

[KRAM1]

Some very good points made in this thread, and it would be very hard to disagree with anything said. However, I would also add that one reason the "outside" perception of UNT is what it is can be in part traced to the fact that UNT's own like to criticize and complain and everything that is the Mean Green and do it in VERY public ways. Folks, this stuff hurts more than you know. During my banking days I heard it over and over again when visiting with clients and when when discussions turned to sports. It often came up on the golf course as well with clients. Can't tell you how many times I was asked why UNT fans complain about UNT so much. It's well known around the metroplex...as least in the business circles I worked within for some 30+ years.

So, one needs to think about that as well. To me, except for a very hard core but declining group of "the sky is falling and everything is done better elsewhere" crowd, this perception is changing within the Mean Green family. And that, folks, is a very good thing indeed. Mean Green pride is returning and retuning in a big way, even among our student body and faculty and staff it appears. Perhaps it is time for the "everything is bad crowd" to take note.

As with re-building a winning program from pretty much ashes and improving facilities, it takes time! This will not happen overnight or even within a year or two, but progress is and will continue to be made. If some would just stop looking for every little thing THEY think is a problem, they might even be able to see some good stuff happening and changing. It's hard to see the good stuff with one's head buried deeply in the "sky is falling and everything is bad" sand...or elsewhere and when folks who think that way seem to only communicate with those of a like mindset.

Winning is definitely number one in getting UNT "over the hump". And that involves recruiting, facilities, coaches, etc. And, it takes time and dollars. UNT has the time, but donor dollars are another thing. Folks like to compare UNT with other programs and what they do and how they do it, but all to often fail to compare staffing numbers, budgets and donor numbers and dollars. I'm enjoying the ride and hope that the ride to the top culminates while I am still "young" enough to enjoy it. Yes, it takes time...Anyone who has even half-a brain knows that...what we all should consider is being supportive of the program in public and doing what we as individuals can do to help....you decide what you can do and are willing to do...but we can all be positive about the university and the athletic program in public. Everyone probably knows the saying...."criticize in private, praise in public". Seems like a great idea to me.

Now, let the winning begin as that cures more ills in college sports than just about anything. On that we can all probably agree.

[UNTexas]

If you look at future opponents and the new conference the answer is right there. Win more games. I disagree with playing LSU in the first game but that actually could help recruiting too. A kid in high school will look at the schedule and see that he could play against one of the best teams. However, a massive beat down isn't good either. The schedule in the next few years is solid. Put together a few winning seasons and the question is answered.

We need more home games too.

[GrandGreen]

This has come up a lot, and I don't take anything away from that 2000 class it was a great one; HOWEVER keep in mind, at that time Rivals and the other recruiting services were in their infancy. Most of the top 100 lists were based off of local newspapers and input from high school coaches NOT college coaches. Rivals started the process of viewing prospects through the eyes of the COLLEGE offer perspective not just the player or high school coach or newspaper writer. Possibly a bigger development has been the advent of the BCS system which I believe began in 1999 or thereabouts. Being in a BCS league gave teams from out of state that never recruited Texas well the opportunity to do very well in Texas. I'll give you a couple of examples from that class. Randy Gardner and Taylor Casey were from West Texas and both did not get offers from Tech. Casey visited Baylor but they did not offer. Brandon Kennedy had offers from SMU and Tulsa. SMU was still in post death penalty academic mode and required BK to complete a written essay and meet with and academic committee before he would be admitted. BK passed on that. Tulsa basically camped out in Terrell prior to signing day but then Coach Ken Burns was running the program into the ground and couldn't close the deal. Scott Hall was invited to Texas A&M but they wanted him as a defensive back and he wanted to play QB. You didn't see schools like Syracuse, Wisconsin, etc dipping into Texas. Also Rice, Tulsa and SMU were struggling in the WAC --- they didn't join CUSA until 2005 and all three benefitted from that move. Back in those days you sort of had the Big 12 teams in Texas and everyone else. TCU had just started their move and SMU, Houston, Rice, and Tulsa were down.

That 2000 class was earned through HARD work, relationships and a lot of optimism. It was truly Dickey's finest hour because he didn't have a great record and had lousy facilities but he and Kenny Evans were great salesmen and built great relationships with recruits and their families. The irony of all this is that Ramon Flanigan recruited Brandon Kennedy and was along with Kenny Evans perhaps our best recruiter at that particular time. Here's another example, Michael Pruitt, the talented defensive tackle from NEO who it didn't seem like we had a chance on ( he was solidly committed to Kansas) ended up choosing North Texas because we kept building a relationship with him despite the fact he was committed elsewhere. Dickey also had a good sense of how to build a good program, he would go after 6-3, 6-4 athletes who could run and play multiple positions. If he had a key need like rush defensive end, he would dip into the juco ranks. After we were winning Sun Belt titles he would pick up the best Sun Belt available offensive linemen to fill out the line giving us an edge against the rest of the conference. He always got good talent in Houston because of Asst. Coach Bruce Bell and his relationships there.

Here's what I am hearing and we all have heard, the outside perception of North Texas is not good, some of that is Dodge tenure but some of it is our adminstrations lack of commitment etc etc. Now the GOOD news is, if we can get a good prospect and his family to visit and they see the buildings, the coaches, the city, academic programs etc they are blown away. The move to C-USA was a huge step in removing that perception. A winning season, not necessarily a bowl year, will be the next step to land the better recruits and I agree 100% with Vito it is a necessary one.

Some good points and I agree with most. It would be almost impossible for a lower tier team to recruit 6 state one hundred recruits now. As you mentioned, rivals has become the standard instead of various locally produced lists. In the olden days the lists were constructed and not changed. Now they are changed to match who is being recruiting by who. The ratings are more accurate now, as in essence the ranking agencies are using the best coaching staffs money can buy to set their evaluations. By definition almost, lower tier teams are not going to get upper tier recruits.

That still doesn't alter the fact that the best NT class in modern history was recruited under far worst conditions than exist now. Yes, the Baylor, SMU and TCU were far down from were they are now, but the advantage of being ex-SWC was much greater. Recruiting by out of state colleges was a major factor than as it is now. I do agree that more out of region colleges are going for the lower rated athlete because there is so much more information available now.

Winning is obviously a missing factor but it has just as obviously not an absolute requirement for signing good players. If it was, how did start ups like WKU and FIU in our own conference build their program.

The problem is how do you boost your recruiting by winning when you are not winning. Seems impossible to me. You do better recruiting by outworking others, better evaluations, better conference affiliation, better facilities, but most importantly selling the program.

I do agree strongly that NT suffers from a perception basis. NT has for decades been the outsider looking in on Texas football. So lack of familiarly joins a recent bad football team string to create a big hurdle in recruiting.

The problem with NT's losing is it was not caused by scheduling, lack of resources or any of the normal excuses. It was caused IMO by two straight horrible coaching decisions. Dickey after early Belt success buoyed by that 2000 class proceeded to drive the program straight into the ground. Lackadaisical recruiting, continued verbal degrading of the "situation" and a focus on moving on, not moving NT's program forward. Then NT made a massive gamble hiring Dodge, which had disastrous results. The results were that NT a team that always had the resources to be at the top of the Belt fail to the bottom for seven years.

Right now, all we can do is speculate. McCarney and staff may be assembing the next 2000 level class or they may be fighting to recruit even a medocre group. I do believe they are hard working and are elavating recruiting from the bottom, but the question is; how much progress is being made. It seems to me, that NT has build to the point that the resources are there to be competitive. Lack of winning is the last and ultimate excuse. If you win, obviously recruiting is going well; if you lose than it is because you have not been winning enough to be able to recruit. Does anyone else see this as ridicolous?

[JulesFIU07]

There are two ways to go about it.

1. Play the hardest possible schedule we can play. Beat the big SEC & Big 12 teams on the road and prove to everyone that we are big and bad. Then recruits will flock to us and the stadium will be full for our 5 home games each year.

or

2. Play 6 home games. Play beatable FBS teams. For once try the path of least resistance against the easiest schedule possible. An early win against against UTSA or TS for example, would breath life into the schedule. An early bad beating by LSU or Alabama hurts not only our record but our home attendance and our recruiting down the road. Recruits want to play on a winning team. Fans want to see a team that is winning games.

A team can play LSU and get beat by 30 points, make a lot of improvements, and still get beat by 30 points. You just see their starters longer.

I don't get too giddy over a moral victory as it is just another L in the loss column.

TCU and BSU, before becoming BCS busters, played relatively easier FBS opposition. That doesn't mean play schools that are perceived as worse than you, but it means playing more beatable schools from more highly regarded conferences. Beating Louisville and UCF last year was huge for us for a number of reasons. Both schools are perceived as better programs, both schools are seen as being in better conferences, and both schools recruit heavily in South Florida. Unfortunately we hit a mid-season slump, but the wins over UCF and Louisville got us a lot of early attention.

UNT could probably schedule lower tier Big 12, ACC and BE schools, and a win against those would be worth that much more in extra publicity.

[JulesFIU07]

If you look at future opponents and the new conference the answer is right there. Win more games. I disagree with playing LSU in the first game but that actually could help recruiting too. A kid in high school will look at the schedule and see that he could play against one of the best teams. However, a massive beat down isn't good either. The schedule in the next few years is solid. Put together a few winning seasons and the question is answered.

We need more home games too.

Scheduling schools like LSU is never good. Those schools tend to have much more depth than schools like us, and more often than not our teams leave those games horribly banged up. You need to develop depth and a certain level of overall talent before taking on a school like LSU.