Back in the day...Flashback 1977.....High hopes...

[Evan]

Since there have been a few posts of late from the "more seasoned" mean green fans, I thought it was time to pull this out. Now I was 4 when this happened, so I'm sure plenty out there will want to add their own two cents. Have we had a string of bad luck calls and too many near misses...yes...but the fact that we have any history at all is great. As I sat at the Conference USA press conference reading the school profiles, I realized that schools like UTSA and FIU have very little history or famous alums that they can hang their hat on. They'd love to have a "one that got away" against Arkansas, Texas, Florida State, or even a Coke Commercial with a kid a jersey and a NFL legend.......We do and I'm glad....

So here it is.....

Link to Article

gmg.......

[Eastwood Eagle]

That was an interesting read. Thanks for posting.

Those around at the time- exactly how close were we to SWC?

[DeepGreen]

The sad part is, back in those days I followed North Texas football, mainly through the newspaper, occasionally I would attend a game, but never once even new there was a booster club. I was never asked for donations or sent season ticket information. To bad communications were not effective like they are today.

Thanks for posting that letter. Just a little UNT history...........oh, wait! We shouldn't mention these things to the new "ass kicking" generation of fans.

[Eastwood Eagle]

I find it baffling that we were strong in the late 70's and then drop to DAA in the 80s wtf?

[NorthTexan95]

I think the biggest reason why we didn't build upon the success of the late 70's was the lack of athletic infrastructure. I don't mean facilities. I mean administration support ... alumni support ... booster club ... spirit club ... etc. There's always been a few folks to want more from the team but never enough. I never felt the entire university administration was ever fully behind athletics until the last half decade. We've obviously have never had the alumni to donate like they have in the last decade or so.

[foutsrouts]

Thanks for posting that letter. Just a little UNT history...........oh, wait! We shouldn't mention these things to the new "ass kicking" generation of fans.

What is the definition of these new "ass kicking" young fans anyway? The one's who leave at halftime or the one's who never show up? Just kidding. I would never say that because we've got a lot of great student support these days, and I suspect that it will only get better from here on out.

On the other hand, since a generation gap conflict seems to be emerging around here, maybe there should be a newly themed GMG.com flag football game with this new "ass kicking generation" going against the "Oldtimer" generation? Make it between long time posting 20th century grads. vs. long time posting 21st century grads.

Might be fun, as long as the right ground rules are set up to keep ringers out of the game.

[greenminer]

On the other hand, since a generation gap conflict seems to be emerging around here, maybe there should be a newly themed GMG.com flag football game with this new "ass kicking generation" going against the "Oldtimer" generation? Make it between long time posting 20th century grads. vs. long time posting 21st century grads.

Might be fun, as long as the right ground rules are set up to keep ringers out of the game.

It'd be a whip! The AK GEN would win four in a row and the OTs would never acknowledge it.

They'd probably follow up each loss with a beer and reminisce about their favorite gmg.com flag football game loss.

[GrayEagle]

I find it baffling that we were strong in the late 70's and then drop to DAA in the 80s wtf?

I'll have a good bit to say in the next few days about this period of time and events but let me take your question first.

Until 1982, universities playing at the highest level were known as "major college" or Division I. The NCAA at that time decided to divide those wanting to join the highest group into Division IA and Division IAA. The requirements for Division IA were a stadium of 30,000 and average attendance of 17,000.

Fouts Field had a capacity of 20,000 at the time and meeting the stadium requirement would have meant the addition of 10,000 seats. Also, we were not in a conference so having 17,000 would have been tough since our home games were the lower rungs of the IA ladder.

Also at that time, the Board of Regents had decided to upgrade the academics of the university. That meant the removal of C.C. Nolen since he did not have a doctorate. Jitter Nolen was the driving force behind retaining Division I football. The BOR decided that we could not have "guns and butter" at the same time so they opted not spending major dollars to expand the stadium and the added cost that went with Division IA football and instead to add curriculum and distinguished professors. Entrance requirements were improved. New buildings were added.

It would be a dozen years before Chancellor Hurley and the Board of Regents felt secure in returning North Texas football to its rightful place.

[foutsrouts]

It'd be a whip! The AK GEN would win four in a row and the OTs would never acknowledge it.

They'd probably follow up each loss with a beer and reminisce about their favorite gmg.com flag football game loss.

No way. It only takes 2 or 3 OT's who still got their legs and hands to have a good shot at whipping up on the kids in a flag game, Of course the Oldtimers need a serious QB who still has the arm to get the ball to 'em. Mitch, Scott, Bron, Jordan, Bakula; where are you?

[foutsrouts]

I'll have a good bit to say in the next few days about this period of time and events but let me take your question first.

Until 1982, universities playing at the highest level were known as "major college" or Division I. The NCAA at that time decided to divide those wanting to join the highest group into Division IA and Division IAA. The requirements for Division IA were a stadium of 30,000 and average attendance of 17,000.

Fouts Field had a capacity of 20,000 at the time and meeting the stadium requirement would have meant the addition of 10,000 seats. Also, we were not in a conference so having 17,000 would have been tough since our home games were the lower rungs of the IA ladder.

Also at that time, the Board of Regents had decided to upgrade the academics of the university. That meant the removal of C.C. Nolen since he did not have a doctorate. Jitter Nolen was the driving force behind retaining Division I football. The BOR decided that we could not have "guns and butter" at the same time so they opted not spending major dollars to expand the stadium and the added cost that went with Division IA football and instead to add curriculum and distinguished professors. Entrance requirements were improved. New buildings were added.

It would be a dozen years before Chancellor Hurley and the Board of Regents felt secure in returning North Texas football to its rightful place.

You're right. It really was the perfect storm, and that storm was pointed right at Denton.

[SilverEagle]

I'll have a good bit to say in the next few days about this period of time and events but let me take your question first.

Now this will be a must read for everyone.

Edited June 2, 2012 by SilverEagle

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Had we been admitted to the SWC.... we would have remained I-A.. SMU convinced the other private schools in the region [ TCU and Baylor ] that they didn't want a large Stet school in the area to compete with... A vote was never taken but 3 opposiing it was one too many.

[GL2Greatness]

Had we been admitted to the SWC.... we would have remained I-A.. SMU convinced the other private schools in the region [ TCU and Baylor ] that they didn't want a large Stet school in the area to compete with... A vote was never taken but 3 opposiing it was one too many.

this is actually BS

http://books.google.com/books?id=bANS-aNcpn4C&pg=PA228&lpg=PA228&dq=Hayden+Fry:+A+High+Porch+Picnic&source=bl&ots=XUK0nY1BNZ&sig=AcKMwg9XybEfSIQf6KHfgGS_868&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2YwzT7iBDcKrsQK6wJW1Ag&ved=0CCgQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=north%20texas&f=false

it says clearly on page 94 that SMU and TCU had no objection to unT being in the SWC

it is right there clear as day in print from the person that was head coach and AD at the time and a person that had no reason to say anything nice about SMU

[greenminer]

this is actually BS

http://books.google....h texas&f=false

it says clearly on page 94 that SMU and TCU had no objection to unT being in the SWC

it is right there clear as day in print from the person that was head coach and AD at the time and a person that had no reason to say anything nice about SMU

Good link.

Hayden was a sly salesman before being a slick coach. I don't remember him ever saying anything that would burn any bridges (past or potentials). I want to read that book, though. I need more insight into him. Regardless, he's probably not the most reliable source when it comes to UNT athletic history.

Edited June 2, 2012 by greenminer

[Harry]

What a great read! Thank you for posting it Evan. The irony to me is everything Fry pointed out in that letter is still applicable today!

[SilverEagle]

this is actually BS

http://books.google....h texas&f=false

it says clearly on page 94 that SMU and TCU had no objection to unT being in the SWC

it is right there clear as day in print from the person that was head coach and AD at the time and a person that had no reason to say anything nice about SMU

And as much as I love Coach Hayden Fry and what he did for North Texas, he also told this story to the demoines register......

Written by

RANDY PETERSON

REGISTER STAFF WRITER

• FILED UNDER
  

• Sports
  
• Sports Extras
  
• 
  
• Hayden Fry knew it was time to move on when the pressing matter of the day was the layout of the women's locker room in the new basketball facility at North Texas State.
  

"As athletic director at North Texas State, I'd just hustled $26 million to build a new basketball arena," Fry, 75, recalled last week. "The women's coach knocked on my door, said there's an emergency and could I walk across the street with her to the arena.

"When I got there, we talked 35 minutes about how to arrange the women's locker room. I hustled $26 million and we've got an emergency with the bathroom.

"I walked back across the street and said to myself, 'Fry, you're out of your mind. We're going someplace else.' ''

Amongst the many exaggerations that Hayden Fry has put out through the years, this has to be the biggest. Actually it's a big fat lie. Ground breaking for the coliseum took place in 1972 (Fry was HC at

SMU) and it was opened in 1973 (Fry was hired at the end of 1973). There was no fundraising involved in building the coliseum.

So, this seriously calls into question his comments about SMU not being opposed to our membership in the SWC. Because he still had friends there, and I believe that one of them had been his broker.

Here is the link.........http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20040704/SPORTS11/50708005/Hayden-Fry-University-Iowa-2004

Edited June 2, 2012 by SilverEagle

[NorthTexan95]

Good link.

Hayden was a sly salesman before being a slick coach. I don't remember him ever saying anything that would burn any bridges (past or potentials). I want to read that book, though. I need more insight into him. Regardless, he's probably not the most reliable source when it comes to UNT athletic history.

That's not a good link ... that's a great link! I just read that entire chapter about his North Texas time. It seems money and support were what we were really lacking.

[greenminer]

That's not a good link ... that's a great link! I just read that entire chapter about his North Texas time. It seems money and support were what we were really lacking.

We were definitely lacking in those areas, but Fry seemed intent on pushing through and fighting it until he realized that the bowls were a "no-go" at the time for Mean Green football...no matter what did That was probably the last straw for him and the catalyst for him deciding to head to Iowa. I don't blame him, really. In an era that did not have internet or social media exposure, the bowls were all the more valuable for their exposure/reward.

To read that LaTech made it to a bowl after we beat them 41-14 the week before, and the bowls still wouldn't take our 7 (or 9, can't remember) win team. That'd piss me off too.

[foutsrouts]

Nice post Evan. That letter illustrates how keeping history alive is one way to show the uninformed that we are much more than just a former 1AA team trying to move up to big boy football.

[GrayEagle]

I read the chapter on North Texas from Hayden Fry's remembrances and most were as I remembered them, a few I hadn't heard of and a couple had minor slips. Hayden was a great guy. He liked to spin a few yarns without facts getting in his way. He and Lou Holtz were the best.

Hayden almost pulled off getting us into the Southwest Conference. He especially had the support of Darrell Royal who was the most important advocate that you could have in your corner. Contrary to some opinions, there was never any announced opposition to North Texas being in the SWC. Conversely, there wasn't a lot of vocal support either other than DKR.

The only reasons stated in opposition were that our academics were suspect and several didn't want a 10-team conference. The former argument was valid except that we were not the only one with lower entrance requirements. At one time it was easy to get into NT. All you needed was a high school diploma. Staying in was the hard part. There were many students who only lasted one year. They went on scho pro the first semester and flunked out the next. Few came back. The requirements slowly changed but had not yet reached the level that the private schools would find acceptable. I do believe that had we been voted in that we would have immediately changed our requirements. The argument against ten members would have had more merit had not the two premier conferences, the Big 10 and the SEC, not been ten member conferences.

The only rumored opposition that I heard came from Arkansas. It wasn't that the Hogs had anything against us personally it was just that we were another Texas university and they were the only out-of-state institution . I don't think that they would've voted against us had the application reached a vote but it seemed to slow the process and not long after that they left the conference.

Had we been admitted to the Southwest Conference the time period would have been short lived. I think that we would've gone with Houston to CUSA since many had roots in the MVC.

[foutsrouts]

I read the chapter on North Texas from Hayden Fry's remembrances and most were as I remembered them, a few I hadn't heard of and a couple had minor slips. Hayden was a great guy. He liked to spin a few yarns without facts getting in his way. He and Lou Holtz were the best.

Hayden almost pulled off getting us into the Southwest Conference. He especially had the support of Darrell Royal who was the most important advocate that you could have in your corner. Contrary to some opinions, there was never any announced opposition to North Texas being in the SWC. Conversely, there wasn't a lot of vocal support either other than DKR.

The only reasons stated in opposition were that our academics were suspect and several didn't want a 10-team conference. The former argument was valid except that we were not the only one with lower entrance requirements. At one time it was easy to get into NT. All you needed was a high school diploma. Staying in was the hard part. There were many students who only lasted one year. They went on scho pro the first semester and flunked out the next. Few came back. The requirements slowly changed but had not yet reached the level that the private schools would find acceptable. I do believe that had we been voted in that we would have immediately changed our requirements. The argument against ten members would have had more merit had not the two premier conferences, the Big 10 and the SEC, not been ten member conferences.

The only rumored opposition that I heard came from Arkansas. It wasn't that the Hogs had anything against us personally it was just that we were another Texas university and they were the only out-of-state institution . I don't think that they would've voted against us had the application reached a vote but it seemed to slow the process and not long after that they left the conference.

Had we been admitted to the Southwest Conference the time period would have been short lived. I think that we would've gone with Houston to CUSA since many had roots in the MVC.

Other than Rice, all schools in the old SWC were reasonably easy to get into in those days. I know a guy who got into Baylor with an SAT well under 800 back in the early 80's. The guy was probably quite a bit smarter than his test scores reflected, but 8:00 Saturday morning was generally not the best time of the week for this particular guy to be showing off his academic prowess.

[DallasGreen]

Had we been admitted to the SWC.... we would have remained I-A.. SMU convinced the other private schools in the region [ TCU and Baylor ] that they didn't want a large Stet school in the area to compete with... A vote was never taken but 3 opposiing it was one too many.

You are definitely correct about SMU, TCU opposition, but I'm not so sure about Baylor. Fry was a Baylor alum and close to the BU AD at the time. Don't know for sure about Rice, but all the rest gave positive vibes. I even heard former TT AD Dewitt Weaver say that TT really thought NT would get the SWC bid that TT secured after the loss TT suffered in Fouts in the 50's.

[DallasGreen]

I find it baffling that we were strong in the late 70's and then drop to DAA in the 80s wtf?

We were not just that strong in the late 70's but the late 60's as well. Corky Nelson absolutely amazed me in the eighties with his ability to have a I-AA team go toe to toe time and again with D-! teams. Victories over Rice, TT and very closes misses to OSU,UT, and KSU. You just have to wonder what Fry and/or Nelson could have done with today's resources at their disposal.

[PlummMeanGreen]

I read the chapter on North Texas from Hayden Fry's remembrances and most were as I remembered them, a few I hadn't heard of and a couple had minor slips. Hayden was a great guy. He liked to spin a few yarns without facts getting in his way. He and Lou Holtz were the best.

Hayden almost pulled off getting us into the Southwest Conference. He especially had the support of Darrell Royal who was the most important advocate that you could have in your corner. Contrary to some opinions, there was never any announced opposition to North Texas being in the SWC. Conversely, there wasn't a lot of vocal support either other than DKR.

The only reasons stated in opposition were that our academics were suspect and several didn't want a 10-team conference. The former argument was valid except that we were not the only one with lower entrance requirements. At one time it was easy to get into NT. All you needed was a high school diploma. Staying in was the hard part. There were many students who only lasted one year. They went on scho pro the first semester and flunked out the next. Few came back. The requirements slowly changed but had not yet reached the level that the private schools would find acceptable. I do believe that had we been voted in that we would have immediately changed our requirements. The argument against ten members would have had more merit had not the two premier conferences, the Big 10 and the SEC, not been ten member conferences.

The only rumored opposition that I heard came from Arkansas. It wasn't that the Hogs had anything against us personally it was just that we were another Texas university and they were the only out-of-state institution . I don't think that they would've voted against us had the application reached a vote but it seemed to slow the process and not long after that they left the conference.

Had we been admitted to the Southwest Conference the time period would have been short lived. I think that we would've gone with Houston to CUSA since many had roots in the MVC.

Jack, I can only remember that it was Darrell Royal who seemed to be the only name you ever read about back then who supported us.

I can remember following all this closely (as we all did) all the way to the meeting that the SWC would have most likely had us on their agenda except for one small detail....they did not have us on their agenda for that meeting. I had also heard one rumor after Fry left for Iowa that all this SWC business for North Texas was done mostly for publicity and that Fry knew we were not going to get into the SWC but as I said....that was a rumor. Well, whether that particular rumor was true or not the results were still the same for our school.

Although the SWC would implode later on, it still would have raised our athletic program's pedigree and as you said, Jack, we probably would have come into CUSA with UH.

GMG!

Edited June 12, 2012 by PlummMeanGreen

[untjim1995]

What an outstanding thread. Great historical perspective of our place in Texas Football. It really does paint a picture of just how destructive we were to ourselves, athletically-speaking. Not getting to play teams in the SWC at home was just a killer to public perception, just as it has been since. Its always been interesting to me how when North Texas has played big game opponents, that our crowds at those places are big. Hearing about 10k going to Austin back in 1976 for a game when a home game in the same season against Texas-Arlington probably didn't draw 10k, just explains even further how much of a mountain we have faced. I think about when we have played at SMU, TCU, Baylor, Texas, Tech, or in NO Bowls and seen the large amounts of green in the stands and immediately think, "For many conference games, there haven't been this many people even around Fouts on gameday, much less in the stands."

Back then, though, the state of Texas was so SWC-centric, that those great NTSU teams probably weren't ever going to get their due from anyone (local and state-wide media, local fans, even the students and alumni of the time). Just thinking back to the SWC from 1977-1986, Texas, Arkansas, Houston, SMU, A&M, and Baylor had teams that were top ten caliber teams at different times. Even getting ranked back then for us still got glossed over when there were other Texas teams in the SWC ahead of you, playing against each other. I think it was great that Fry and Nolen tried to get us in their club, but I don't think we ever really had a prayer. The private schools weren't going to take another big public school, especially since UH had recently joined, and there wasn't going to enough support from the other public schools in the SWC to add someone who didn't really expand the market. There was no media attention or pressure, either, along with the fact that we have never had a presence of note in the legislature to help us along.

To me, the story of North Texas athletics will still come down to the realization that our leaders allowed us to go down to 1-aa and kept us there for that long.We couldn't get people to show up for games against UTA or West Texas State, why would they show up for a game against even smaller Texas schools from even smaller towns (SFA and SHSU are prime examples here.) Sure, al of those SLC schools had alumni bigger than most of the SWC privates, but there wasn't anything compelling to anyone in the Metroplex to go watch UNT play Southwest Texas State at Fouts, especially when a Top Ten matchup between Texas and SMU was being played down the road. I think had we not dropped down or had we at least bounced back up to i-a quicker, basically following the path of Tulsa or Louisiana Tech, we would have never known the Sun Belt Conference existed, much like everyone else in America. We would have been in the WAC or CUSA during the 80s and 90s. Plus, we wouldn't have allowed ourselves to feel like Fouts was acceptable for our university. And we would have never lost 30 years of fans who could have cared less about SLC, Big West, or SBC schools, especially to watch them in a toilet of a stadium.

I love that we finally have gotten in CUSA and we have Texas teams and Tulsa, La Tech, and Tulane in our league now. Its a huge step up for sure. People will go watch UNT play Louisiana Tech at Apogee, when we know that getting them to watch us play Louisiana-Monroe at Fouts was never going to happen at a decent level. People here know Tulsa, even if its a small school, because they are a name that Texas fans know and we know alums of their school. Nobody here knows anything significant about Troy, even if they were decent in football. I think there is still time for our university to make some serious strides in the world of college football that would entrench us as members of the top division of college football for years to come. But we have got to start winning again. Losing seasons are even harder to swallow for UNT in today's college world, as the shift of major division football and smaller divisions is about to get rolling again, probably in small steps. The SBC and WAC are most susceptible to being dropped first. But lower rung CUSA, MWC, and Big East schools will eventually get on that chopping block too. We got to CUSA because of size and market, plain and simple. But to assure ourselves of being included at the top levels of FBS for decades to come, we will have to do some winning at a high level (winning divisions, conferences, and bowl games) to show the rest of the world we belong up there. And it would probably do something way into the future that most of us could only dream about--actually having old SWC public schools show an interest in having us as conference mates one day because our programs are strong, our market stays big, and our academics keep getting better. Right now, and probably 20 years into the future, no Big XII school (Current or past) would be able to tell their fans that they want to have us as conference mates--it would not be received well at all, even if we started winning right now. But if we became a school like Southern Miss or East Carolina, ones that regularly finish ranked and have developed a great reputation as a threat, maybe the folks in Austin and Lubbock and Houston and Norman say to themselves, "Why wouldn't we want a strong public school in DFW with us in our conference that brings more people than TCU or Baylor do to games and we get more viewers than the private schools bring when we play North Texas?" Granted, this is a pipedream, especially in today's college football world and with our pecking order within this region of the US, but it isn't an acid-trip either. If college football becomes semi-pro bal for the Top 40-50 schools in the country, then this all changes and it wouldn't have mattered at all anyway. But until that possible nightmare actually becomes a certain reality, we have our chance. And really, it starts now. Win the podunk SBC and the NO Bowl one last time, go to CUSA with momentum and compete for a division championship and a bowl again, build yourself into a scary OOC opponent for the current Big 5 conferences--this is the Southern Miss, East Carolina, TCU, Utah, South Florida, Central Florida, Boise State, etc..model that has helped them become household names. Realistically, we never had a chance at that before now, but times and attitudes change--it can be done here now and be sustainable. But the key is now--it has to start NOW!!