Jucos becoming extinct at North Texas

[Harry]

Just perusing the roster and I find the following Juco recruits:

CB - DQ Johnson - Iowa Western CC: A junior that they needed at a critical position.

QB - Brent Osborn - Northwestern Miss CC: A junior. After a rough soph year with few opportunities Ozzy came up strong in the Spring. I think Chico felt like they needed an insurance policy with Thompson's injury.

TE - Andrew Power - Arizona Western CC: A senior. With Dodge refusing to sign tight ends, Power was a need sign for Mac. I think he's been a solid addition as a run blocker and has All Sun Belt potential.

WR - Chris Bynes - Coffeyville CC: A RS Senior. A good player who overcame an injury; got a medical redshirt year - and came to be a major contributor as a possession receiver with big play potential.

Dodge loaded up on jucos at the tail end of his tenure and they are gone now. Mac seems to be very high school focused and that's not a bad thing. I did a quick glance of the Belt rosters to see what they were doing. Keep in mind, I am looking at Juco or Community College transfers only, not FBS or FCS transfers as those are a different animal and are probably worth a separate discussion. For fans of these schools feel free to make corrections and I apologize for any errors made. It will be interesting to see how these strategies play out over time.

Sun Belt Juco Numbers By Program

Ark State: 7

UNT: 4

ULL: 13

WKU: 1

MTSU: 3

ULM: 1

FIU: 3

FAU: 3

USA: 9

Troy: 21

[bstnsportsfan3]

i have no doubt the right way to build this program is through high school kids on both the local and national level. Juco route is only one you travel when desperate (ala Dodge)

[ValleyBoy]

You could consider Osborn a FCS transfer instead of a JUCO recruit. After burning his redshirt year at Georgia Southern Osborn made the decision to transfer to a JUCO instead of going the walk on route at several different schools where he would have been ineligible to play till this past fall.

I believe the route that Osborn took was the best decision because of the game experience that he got in his one year in JUCO. Basically Osborn is FCS transfer with one years experience as a starter.

[UNTLifer]

I've got nothing against JUCO's, but only to fill needs here and there. Loading up is the wrong way to go, as I would limit it to maybe one or two per class. The Troy method of loading up is a disaster waiting to happen and may finally be catching up to them.

[LakeTravis]

Imagine the mess they will have when they get a new HC at Troy. (eventually)

All the grey-shirts, broken promises when they don't get the schoalrship.

I don't understand their over signings year in and out.

[trussbussdad]

JUCO - if you live by JUCO, you will die by the JUCO....reasoning:

- it is a quick fix and only for two years

- MOST of these kids are at a JUCO for a reson...did not have the grades as they came out of high school; did not have a good highlight tape (not enough playing time in hs); or they are a re-tread...went off to school out of hs, could not make the grades or depth chart, went to a JUCO and now coming back out and now at their 3rd stop.

When a team builds itself with more than 6-8 JUCO kids, the program is in a tail spin

[PlummMeanGreen]

Of course you cannot discount UL's success they seem to have had with their JUCO program.

After all, the Rajun Cajuns did beat future Big East (well, uh,maybe) member San Diego State in the "Nawlins' Bowl.

[KRAM1]

For me, I am really happy to see this trend. As has been said...you live by the JUCO, you die by the JUCO and, in my opinion, it is NO WAY to build a program. I can see using a JUCO as a "spot need" player from time time time when there is a glaring need at some position that developed unexpectedly due to injury, grade, discipline or "want to" problems, but to try to build or sustain a program on JUCO guys...well, you are asking for failure. Short-time "fix" at best. One needs to always remember...JUCO guys are JUCO guys for a reason, and you only get so much time from them. I think you bite the bullet and build relationships with HS coaches and build with guys who can help you for up to four years.

Just me.

[GrandGreen]

Lots of schools live on jucos, although it is getting less common. With the new eligibility rules on the horizon, they will be even less a factor in both football and basketball.

Even the premier teams cherry pick the jucos, but like high school recruiting; Belt schools are not getting the cream. Troy maybe an exception with their over signing and academic risk taking.

Off topic, but some of the Troy fans are the most vocal against NT and FIU moving on. What they fail to fully realize is that Troy is likely never going anywhere and it is not their location, it is their academic reputation. It will be interesting to see how far Troy can go as rules tighten on transfers and over signing. Last years, performance might not be just a bad year for them.

[GreenFlag]

Some make it work, others don't. I would think candidates would have to be vetted even more selectively than HS kids to make it work. It just seems we have missed alot more than we have hit with JUCO's.

Troy is just in a world of their own. It looks to me like they use the JUCO route as their farm system - to get kids eligible. It will be interesting to see how Troy responds this year. Talk about gaming the system. They signed 13 JUCO's in their last class and have 21 on the roster. Only 11 of their 40 (yes 40) 2009 signees are on the roster for 2012. They are showing 118 kids on the roster for 2012.

[Mark Gommesen]

There is nothing wrong with recruiting a few highly talented JUCO players. But, I agree too many creates, it own challenges. It really ties the hands of your offensive coordinator. Although, Mike Canales' offense is not the most complex in the world, it is multi-dimensional and challenging. It still takes time for an athlete to become well verse in all aspects. During a typical season, a coordinator has to adjust his offensive due to personnel changes or the propensities of your opponents. This very difficult with athletes who have been in your system a short time. An athletes needs time to learn a system; time that JUCOs simply do not have.

Because many players have been in coach Canales' system for a couple of years,the UNT offensive will be exciting with multiple players contributing in a multiple of ways.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Mark Gommesen

[DT 90]

And then there are the Cam Newtons of the JUCO world.

[SilverEagle]

My observation of Jucos in recent years has been that unless you bring them in at mid-semester, and get them into spring ball, you really aren't going to get a full two years out of them.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

JUCO - if you live by JUCO, you will die by the JUCO....reasoning:

- it is a quick fix and only for two years

- MOST of these kids are at a JUCO for a reson...did not have the grades as they came out of high school; did not have a good highlight tape (not enough playing time in hs); or they are a re-tread...went off to school out of hs, could not make the grades or depth chart, went to a JUCO and now coming back out and now at their 3rd stop.

When a team builds itself with more than 6-8 JUCO kids, the program is in a tail spin

----I work at at a Juco.... When you talk football... I tend to agree with you... basketball... not so much. Athletes at Jucos tend to be there for several reasons ...

1. Could not pass the SAT with high enough score [ several here, that was a problem but did well later in 4-yr colleges and some even made NBA ]

2. As you said, they were overlooked at HS level because of physical immaturity or size [spud Webb] or perhaps as you said lack of HS playing time or playing in a system or with a team that did not show their real ability. [ Aaron Rodgers & Cam Newton played at a Juco ]

3. In sports other than football, foreign students with poor language skills and perhaps unknown athlete history.... needed to improve language and skills before moving on.

4. Just not that good... at least coming out of HS.

5. Questionable academic ability... not same as SAT score. (some may just test poorly) .... These may improve when out of bad home environment they grew up in.

.... In basketball anyway... The Juco kids that get to move on have been playing a lot .... and gained a lot of valuable competitive experience instead of sitting on a bench. Many Juco basketball teams could give a lot of 4-year programs fits... Because basketball teams are rather small compared to football, a lot of talent slips by 4-year schools coming out of HS. I don't think that applies to football as much.

.

Edited May 24, 2012 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[SilverEagle]

And then there are the Cam Newtons of the JUCO world.

Yes, and in my day, there was O.J. Simpson. And during the same time frame (mid-to-late 60's) North Texas had a Juco named John Love who did pretty well.

[Harry]

Just for comparison purposes UNT had 13 jucos on last years roster.

[Green Mean]

Aaron Rodgers was a JUCO as well before he transferred to Cal. I know that is way too much of an exception but in my estimation...JUCO or not it is about talent evaluating. If you scout well and evaluate talent thoroughly then it should not matter...college football teams get new players every year so it won't matter if they are talented and can contribute. In my estimation JUCO's can add immediate depth to a team combined with some experience and maturity.

I say you do whatever it takes to get talent in the program whether they're JUCO's or not because we're not a super big boy where we only get a long list primo 4 and 5 star recruits every off season.

[UNTLifer]

^{If D.Q. Johnson can become the "Texas Stop Sign" at one corner, then we have 4 excellent JUCO's on our team. But for everyone that succeeds, it seems there are a number like Alonzo Horton.}

[KRAM1]

Hey, I doubt that anyone here is saying that you don't find a gem of a JUCO from time to time. I am not saying that one should never sign a JUCO player...as ScreamingEagle-66 rightfully pointed out, there are those not so negative reasons for players to go the JUCO route. For me, the issue is how many and why. I'd be fine with the occasional JUCO to shore up a weak spot for a year or two while the recruited and potential (potential being the operative word here...as we have all seen "potential" not develop or leave) 4-year HS player develops and gains experience if no other players were available. JUCO players certainly have their place and I am fine when that is the case, just don't want to see a program try to base it's future on JUCO guys.

[greenminer]

Doesn't hurt that we've had so many transfers come in the last year or two.

[outoftown]

I would take the 20 best Jucos in the country over the 1201th to 1220th best HS talent any day.... ...but of course I'd take the 1-20 HS talent over the 1-20 JUCO talent even faster.

bottom line if nobody goes the JUCO route that leaves good talent to be picked up... but right now there are enough teams like Troy out there building with Jucos. Because of that I feel it is the right now the correct thing to only occasionally take JUCOs: when their upside is really big and the probability of them panning out really good. But some of those are out there

Edited May 23, 2012 by outoftown

[KRAM1]

but right now there are enough teams like Troy out there building with Jucos.

So, in your opinion, how long will "Troy" be building with JUCO's? And, will they have lasting success going this route in your opinion? I don't think I can point to any team with a quality long-term record over the last 20 years or so who built anything long lasting with JUCO's as a majority of their recruits. Could be wrong, of course. Just want to have your thoughts since you seem to be more positive on loading up with JUCO's than I am.

[MeanGreenTexan]

So, in your opinion, how long will "Troy" be building with JUCO's? And, will they have lasting success going this route in your opinion? I don't think I can point to any team with a quality long-term record over the last 20 years or so who built anything long lasting with JUCO's as a majority of their recruits. Could be wrong, of course. Just want to have your thoughts since you seem to be more positive on loading up with JUCO's than I am.

Didn't Snyder build up K-State with recruits from the Jayhawk conference? For a while there when K-State was really good, he was getting the pick of the litter out of that conference, and the Jayhawk conference is very highly regarded conference for football, so he was getting some really nice players every single year.

He still is. Looking at last year's class for them (Rivals), 8 of their 21 commits were JUCOs, and just glancing at the past few years, it does not appear to be a blip, rather a trend.

[outoftown]

So, in your opinion, how long will "Troy" be building with JUCO's? And, will they have lasting success going this route in your opinion? I don't think I can point to any team with a quality long-term record over the last 20 years or so who built anything long lasting with JUCO's as a majority of their recruits. Could be wrong, of course. Just want to have your thoughts since you seem to be more positive on loading up with JUCO's than I am.

I am not claiming to be that knowledgeable...neither about troy nor about the future...nor am I as positive as you describe about JUCOs.I just see it as market thing. If everybody gets very down on JUCOs they will become interesting. The truth is that NT often is rather at the back of the line to pick its High school talent.... sadly enough that don't mean we get to pick first among the JUCOs.... but if the moment should ever come when everybody abandons the Juco route (say nobody has more than 5-6 on their roster and most only 1-2) going anticyclical on JUCOs would become interesting, you could start picking up some real gems.... but right now I am quite happy with how the staff does it... better to only have a few JUCOs and a high rate of "panning out" than many and having a low rate. With JUCOs you got to hit, you don't have muchtime to adjust them to the system and form them.

Edited May 23, 2012 by outoftown

[KRAM1]

Didn't Snyder build up K-State with recruits from the Jayhawk conference? For a while there when K-State was really good, he was getting the pick of the litter out of that conference, and the Jayhawk conference is very highly regarded conference for football, so he was getting some really nice players every single year.

He still is. Looking at last year's class for them (Rivals), 8 of their 21 commits were JUCOs, and just glancing at the past few years, it does not appear to be a blip, rather a trend.

Indeed he did...and K-State was once the doormat of the Big 12 before Snyder. Good point. And, one good example of using JUCO's to build and sustain a program.