Ready For This? Fla St. & Clemson To Big 12? A Big East Killer?

[MeanGreenTeeth]

I don't know what you want from me. I just grabbed the first 2 articles I saw. Here are a couple more. Is the Tulsa World a reputable source? Is Sports Illustrated a reputable source? I can keep doing this all day if you'd like. It doesn't really matter, I remember exactly what happened as it was all over the sports news shows at the time.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/OU/article.aspx?subjectid=92&articleid=20111002_11_A1_CUTLIN368500

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/09/21/pac.12.realignment/index.html?sct=cf_t11_a1

The fact is that Oklahoma + Oklahoma State alone were not an attractive expansion option for the PAC-12. That isn't to say OU isn't a great football school, it's probably been one of the top 3 programs overall over the past 15 years. All I'm saying is that while it has a very devoted fan base (those are the folks who buy jerseys and fill up stadiums), there simply aren't enough casual fans (due to the population of the State of Oklahoma) to provide enough eyeballs on TV sets to put it in the same category as Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc. That's not a slam so I'm not sure why you're going all unibomber on me. I'm sure there a plenty of others who disagree with me, but nobody else is wound up about it like you.

[GL2Greatness]

I don't know what you want from me. I just grabbed the first 2 articles I saw. Here are a couple more. Is the Tulsa World a reputable source? Is Sports Illustrated a reputable source? I can keep doing this all day if you'd like. It doesn't really matter, I remember exactly what happened as it was all over the sports news shows at the time.

http://www.tulsaworl...A1_CUTLIN368500

http://sportsillustr...l?sct=cf_t11_a1

The fact is that Oklahoma + Oklahoma State alone were not an attractive expansion option for the PAC-12. That isn't to say OU isn't a great football school, it's probably been one of the top 3 programs overall over the past 15 years. All I'm saying is that while it has a very devoted fan base (those are the folks who buy jerseys and fill up stadiums), there simply aren't enough casual fans (due to the population of the State of Oklahoma) to provide enough eyeballs on TV sets to put it in the same category as Texas, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc. That's not a slam so I'm not sure why you're going all unibomber on me. I'm sure there a plenty of others who disagree with me, but nobody else is wound up about it like you.

are you a TAMS student?

[GL2Greatness]

Well..this is taking an angle I didn't expect. Nope, I'm a fully grown man. I was just approximating when Stoops took over.

If your looking to creep on kids this probably isn't the best place dude.. j/k

Seriously though man, this is a message board. We're just tossing opinions out there. You got to lighten up.

OU was a national power and nationally relevant long before Stoops took over and how could I lighten up more than laughing at someone that clearly doesn't know what they are talking about

[GreenBat]

Well..this is taking an angle I didn't expect. Nope, I'm a fully grown man. I was just approximating when Stoops took over.

If your looking to creep on kids this probably isn't the best place dude.. j/k

Seriously though man, this is a message board. We're just tossing opinions out there. You got to lighten up.

GL2Greatness is a troll. He also posted under CheckFacts and ToddRodge. Just ignore him. I have him blocked so I don't even have to read his troll crap.

[Green Mean]

are you a TAMS student?

Are you gay? AAARE YOUU GAYY!?!?!

Edited May 6, 2012 by Green Mean

[UNTFan23]

This thread took an odd turn.

[MeanGreenTeeth]

Okay

1. I'm deleting my previous post, as it was a little over the line in subject nature even though I was joking and I don't want to offend anyone.

2. (and this is my last post) I seriously think you have some sort of reading comprehension issue. I never said OU wasn't a power in earlier years. It obviously was, I was just trying to pick a period where they have had fairly unbroken success. I don't know if you're trolling me, or autistic, or just really bored, but I'm done.

Edited May 6, 2012 by MeanGreenTeeth

[GL2Greatness]

Are you gay? AAARE YOUU GAYY!?!?!

no, but thank you for your interest and I don't judge you for your lifestyle choices

[NT03]

This thread took an odd turn.

GMG at it's finest... Sometimes I wish this board would shut down for a few weeks during the off season. We could all use the break

[UNTFan23]

GMG at it's finest... Sometimes I wish this board would shut down for a few weeks during the off season. We could all use the break

We need something to take our mind off of college sports and take a few moments to laugh.

Edited May 6, 2012 by UNTFan23

[MeanMag]

We need something to take our mind off of college sports and take a few moments to laugh.

Ooh god, that's funny.

[forevereagle]

no, but thank you for your interest and I don't judge you for your lifestyle choices

You don't get jokes, do you?

[eulessismore]

We need something to take our mind off of college sports and take a few moments to laugh.

I thought I'd end up reading all the way through page 68, but started laughing so hard when it got to the carrot thing I had to stop. Didn't want to wake up the household laughing too hard.

[DJstars21]

Gl2Greatness gives new meaning to the term "getting ahead of yourself". He's like Mel Gibson from Conspiracy Theory! Seriously man, relax!

[golfingomez]

GL2G,

Miami and FSU are down now but in their prime they are on the same level as UT or OU. I also forgot about VA Tech which seem to go to the BCS Bowl a lot but can't win. As I said that lately the Big 12 is much greater in football but from a historical perspective and how things run in cycles it is foolish to think that the Big 12 is superior than the ACC...I just don't see it.

Are you really trying to say that FSU and Miami are historically even with OU and tu? Have you looked at anything pre-1980?

Edited May 6, 2012 by golfingomez

[Green Mean]

Are you really trying to say that FSU and Miami are historically even with OU and tu? Have you looked at anything pre-1980?

From a whole historical standpoint going back 50 or 60+ years then no of course I am not saying that but from 1980-present that is a pretty big sample size and that is more than enough for me to think they are both super powers on a level of UT and OU in my opinion in the last 3+ decades. Miami has 5 national titles since 1983 and FSU has only 2 but been to 6 BCS bowl games as well. Again I think people forget how DOMINANT those two programs were not too long ago. Again it's just my opinion but I do consider FSU and Miami super big boy programs.

[Mark Gommesen]

To simplify this and help explain why FSU and Clemson and the ACC can potentially be raided Ill try and clear up some things.

1. The ACC TV deal is not very good and is locked in for a long time. The problem with it is that not only do they potentially MAX after adding the former BE schools at around 17M (which is still a bump from their current 14) but they have no other content to sell. All media, 1st-3rd tiers are already leveraged. This is the top.

2. FSU and Clemson hate the "tobacco road mafia" and the ACC desire to prop up the basket schools and basketball in general over football.

3. SEC is looking at potential 22-27M per school and that just further expands the divded between FSU and UF and Clemson and SC.

4. The Big 12's creative 3rd tier model allows teams to further increase their revenue beyond the current 20.5M the Big 12 will get per school. The scenarios with adding both FSU and Clemson plus a title game has been as high as 27M+ what ever the schools can get for their 3rd tier rights.

5. The Big 12 is considering creating a Big12N that individual schools can sell content to instead of running their own distribution network or to use as a compliment (which it wouldn't shock me that UT and OU would sell their rebroadcasts to the B12N while keeping the live broadcast on their networks)

6. This is survival of the fittest and it is looking more and more like SOS will be a big part of the title picture. The ACC has not been very good and a top 4 model puts the ACC at an even greater disadvantage. Moving to the the Big 12 not only boost SOS but the B12 history of BCS bowls gives a good base for the prediction of frequent if not annual BCS payouts to the conference. At 15M this was not a big deal. At 60M this becomes a huge issue. That is an extra 4M dollars or more appropriately in 3 years time that is an entire new indoor practice facility or weight room. Look at Baylor and OSU. Spending Cash of facilities is a must and if you get behind the only way to catch up is $$

7. FSU is running at a $2.4M budget deficit in the AD. They are heavily tied to donors and gate revenue vs student fees. They need the marque games and the massive bump in TV revenue plus an increase attendance could potentially see a 20M swing. (10 for 1,2 tiers, 5 for 3rd tier, 5 in attendance/donations)

Needless to say there are some pretty compelling reasons. Not sure if it will happen, but it is not something you can just write off as a pipe dream. I would actually expect 3 from the ACC + Louisville to get to 14, not just 12.

That would mean the ACC needs 3 schools. Rutgers, UCON, USF and UCF would top my list and maybe they go to 16 to break their TV deal.

That would probably kill the nBE and leave the ACC, B12, SEC, B10 and Pac12. That makes a pretty good setup for an 8 team playoff that would be the Big 5 conf champions and then the top 3 at larges with most likely a clause for the SBC, CUSA, MAC and MWC if they have a team in the top 8 or 10.

That would leave BSU, memphis, SMU, UH, and SDst scrambling and the scary thought is that there would only be potentially 2 spots left in the CUSA and 3 teams in Memphis, SMU and UH.

Regardless this round of realignment was as much about positioning for the Big one coming if the Big 12 can crack the ACC. The SEC or B10 might just try and poach a few more.

Excellent analysis. It's a money game. The upside is that the Big East has a huge media contract with ABC/ESPN. The collapse of the Big East may provide some opportunities for up and comers like MWC/CUSA.

[tylermeangreen]

Harry, are paying this guy to have a word quota? At least Plummer is a unt fan.

BS is cheap - Don't need to pay for it; it is free!

[PlummMeanGreen]

you must be brain dead...OU is a national power and has been for decades....I guess you consider Alabama a small market program as well

as for the PAC it is the other way around....UT and OU did not feel like handing off their national value to 14 other teams that bring a whole lot less than they do in a 16 team conference

why hand out money you bring to the table to 14 other mouths when you can only hand that out to 8 or 10 others in a 10 or 12 team conference.....the same lesson the top teams in the ACC are learning now which is why they are looking at the Big 12

for those that were apparently born after 1990 it was OU that sued the NCAA to get out of the NCAA controlling all the media for football because OU knew they were giving money away for their popularity nationally to teams that bring nothing to D1-A football

also for those that are fans of a program that relies on conference distributions, conference TV money (even if small), and student fees for the vast majority of their athletics budget take a look at the 90+ million that OU athletics brings in every year and then look at their ticket sales, their student fees (if any), their conference TV money, and their conference distributions then you can scratch your head where the other 40 million for a "small market team with no national following" comes from and maybe when you wake up you will realize it is from people all across the country buying OU merchandise to wear because they like to support and be associated with a long term winner

the lack of knowledge and reality sometimes showed on this forum is laughable

and PS the metromess may be larger in population than the entire state of Oklahoma, but if you compare OU support, OU merchandise sales, and OU game attendance in the metromess to other schools in the metromess maybe you will again gain an understanding of what a national following means

things like Craig Miller and corby supporting OU even though neither ever went to school there and both actually went to metromess schools

And what part of UNT is it that you love that keeps you coming back?

Some of your schools you have mentioned reforming a new conference bring nothing to the table market-wise if they start becoming perennial losers. A perennial loser in a major market still brings more to the table than one winning annually in a small market. You might want reflect on that for (maybe) a minute.

And we never will get to know which school you support that has you (somewhat) in a constant "UNT hater" mode?

GMG!

[untjim1995]

This will never happen because FSU and Clemson don't want to pay that huge exit fee, put up with the longhorn Network and Texas and OU running things over here. The Big XII will add teams from this bunch at some point (USF, Louisville, Cincy, or BYU). I used to think ESPN would force Texas to go independent with the LHN investment being so large and the entwork wanting quality programming. Now, I think they are just going to eat that network, in part, so as to not have to watch all of these current contracts for the SEC, ACC, Pac-12, and B1G get re-done. They know that the middle of the country doesn't have big populations to draw from, but with the state of Texas in tow, they get to enjoy the success of Oklahoma football and Kansas basketball while still getting the Texas TV sets. West Virginia and TCU don't add TV sets of major note, especially compared to A&M and Missouri, but they get names that will help draw the eyeballs of Texans, which is what the conference must have to survive. Specifically speaking about the Big 12, the obvious killer is if Texas or Oklahoma ever leave, but it appears that Oklahoma cannot go anywhere without little brother (OSU) and that no one will take those two without Texas, who also appears to have a new little brother (Tech) to carry around. No one will take the LHN, unless you are desperate to leave your previous conference, i.e., the Big East, MWC, CUSA, etc..No one will leave the stability of the ACC or the probability that the ACC will get more network money down the road as deals get renegotiated in the next decade. If the Big 12 stays together, it will only be due to the fact that Oklahoma, Texas, or Oklahoma State compete consistently for national championships in football, while having Kansas basketball is the icing on the cake to keep the league's name strong in the only other college sport that really makes money for everyone. Sorry Baylor, women's hoops doesn't count, nor does college baseball, even though it is a very fun sport that could one day grow into something much bigger if they ever increased coverage and allowed betting on that sport.

[VideoEagle]

Has anyone checked the basic math in the article at the Begining of this thread? According to the article, each of the ten teams in the Big 12 get $20 million. Ok. But next the article reads that there is an automatic escalator of $2 million per team added to that $20 million per team. So for fourteen, each team gets $28 million.

That just doesn't seem right. I can get that UT or OU are worth $20 million a year each. But if the article is correct, then adding ANYONE else adds not only $22 million for the eleventh school but an additional $20 million a year to be divided between the ten existing schools. Really? I'll grant you Florida State is valuable, but is it worth more than OU and UT COMBINED are today?

Did I completely misread? Or is this article incorrect?

[SMU2006]

LOL. That is fuzzy math if there ever was such a thing.

[Mark Gommesen]

The Big 12′s member presidents just have verbally agreed to a TV deal worth a combined $2.6 billion with ESPN and FOX, CBSSports

is reporting. I doubt the Big 12 is interested in expansion and renegotiating media contracts.

[GL2Greatness]

This will never happen because FSU and Clemson don't want to pay that huge exit fee, put up with the longhorn Network and Texas and OU running things over here. The Big XII will add teams from this bunch at some point (USF, Louisville, Cincy, or BYU). I used to think ESPN would force Texas to go independent with the LHN investment being so large and the entwork wanting quality programming. Now, I think they are just going to eat that network, in part, so as to not have to watch all of these current contracts for the SEC, ACC, Pac-12, and B1G get re-done. They know that the middle of the country doesn't have big populations to draw from, but with the state of Texas in tow, they get to enjoy the success of Oklahoma football and Kansas basketball while still getting the Texas TV sets. West Virginia and TCU don't add TV sets of major note, especially compared to A&M and Missouri, but they get names that will help draw the eyeballs of Texans, which is what the conference must have to survive. Specifically speaking about the Big 12, the obvious killer is if Texas or Oklahoma ever leave, but it appears that Oklahoma cannot go anywhere without little brother (OSU) and that no one will take those two without Texas, who also appears to have a new little brother (Tech) to carry around. No one will take the LHN, unless you are desperate to leave your previous conference, i.e., the Big East, MWC, CUSA, etc..No one will leave the stability of the ACC or the probability that the ACC will get more network money down the road as deals get renegotiated in the next decade. If the Big 12 stays together, it will only be due to the fact that Oklahoma, Texas, or Oklahoma State compete consistently for national championships in football, while having Kansas basketball is the icing on the cake to keep the league's name strong in the only other college sport that really makes money for everyone. Sorry Baylor, women's hoops doesn't count, nor does college baseball, even though it is a very fun sport that could one day grow into something much bigger if they ever increased coverage and allowed betting on that sport.

1, UT and OU don't run things

2. Clemson and FSU are not scared of competition like and they are not scared to keep some of the value of their program for themselves in the form of third tier rights

3. Clemson and FSU are smart enough to realize that they are competing against all 120+ D1-A teams including many in the SEC so sitting around and looking at the LHN and being scared of it means they are just going to fall further back as other programs move forward any way they can....like Florida having an 8 million dollar a year deal with the Sunshine network

4. BYU wishes to remain independent and Cincy and USF will never even get a sniff from the Big 12 and Louisville would be a last choice after a large number of other teams

5. ESPN will not force UT to do anything period UT does not get forced into positions that is why they have the largest athletics revenue in the country for a number of years running and by a large margin

6. the PAC just signed their deal it is not going to be "redone" because the deal was signed after there were 12 teams and it is a done deal....the PAC will not be adding any teams for at least the next 6 years and probably never because the Big 12 teams are locked in and even if a Big 12 team did go to the PAC it would be without media rights which means no value

7. the ACC deal is brand new and will only get a slight increase of that and even then it will only be to normalize the value for 2 more teams or perhaps a slight bump of a million or two for those teams.....it will still be well below the current Big 12 deals by a couple of million at least and that is not including any of the third tier deals that Big 12 teams have

8. the B1G deal is mostly the B1G network which they control....it can only pay out what it pays out it does not have a huge pool of money to reach into to over pay....and CBS has no need to pay more to the B1G since CBS already is locked into what content they get rights to and that does not increase with the addition of NU

9. the SEC deal is not that old and Neil Pilson the former chairman of CBS sports has already commented that the SEC deal does not have firm parts in place for an increase for adding teams and he has also specifically stated that TAMU did not bring huge new value to the SEC and their TV partners because TAMU has not been that good for over a decade and more importantly because of diminishing returns especially for CBS which is the network with the first refusal rights for games......there are only so many 4 hour football games you can show in a 24 hour period and expect people to tune in so adding more games that you either can't show or can't show at any hour that anyone would watch and then paying a premium for those games is just stupid

and in terms of CBS that has a single network to show games and first pick of those games why would they pay more money so that ESPN/2/ABC can then air games on the same time period that CBS is.....and even for ESPN/2/ABC at some point you are paying a premium for games that just increase the competition with your own network for viewers....so the idea that the SEC will get huge new money is over blown and has been shot down by a guy that used to do that for a living specifically with CBS the first in line with the SEC

10. you left out mens basketball for Baylor as well or does going to the elite 8 two times in three years not mean anything?...I know it means something for the Big 12 NCAA payout that is for sure

the current TV deals break down like this

20.8 PAC (scaling from 18 to 25 over the life of the deal) and with several teams having to pay out up front to get 3rd tier rights back

19.33 B10

17.083 SEC

16.95 Big 12 current deals in place

13 ACC (possibility getting to 15 million)

so the Big 12 makes a little over 50K less than the SEC teams and the SEC deal is in place for many more years

the PAC deal averages 20.8 million over the life of the deal, but is slides in scale and starts lower and moves to 25 million at the end

the ACC deal is for 13 million and there is talk they MIGHT get it to 15 million with the two new teams

all of the above deals except the Big 12 include most or all of the third tier rights with the SEC teams having a bit of freedom for a game or two which is how Florida has their deal the PAC and B1G have firm control of all three tiers as does the ACC

the SEC, ACC, and PAC deals all run to at least 2023 and the main B1G deal runs to 2032 and their CBS deal until 2017

one small Big 12 deal runs out this year, their second tier deal is brand new and runs to 2024-25 and their first tier deal goes to 2015-16

so right now the big 12 is making 4 million more per year VS the ACC and that is not including any third tier deals and there is talk that ESPN would like to go ahead and make the 2015-16 deal match up with the second tier Fox deal until 2024-25 along with an increase and there is talk that is particular teams were added there would be a bump along with a bump for a CCG

so the teams in the ACC that can sell their third tier rights for value would have a significant reason to leave the ACC because KSU is getting 3 million for theirs, KU is getting 7, and the LHN was worth 20 million per year to UT (with IMG getting 5 of that because of past contractual rights) so Clemson and FSU could have about 10 million reasons per year to leave the ACC for the Big 12 even IF the ACC gets new money for adding two teams and going to 14

[Cerebus]

GL2Greatness is a troll. He also posted under CheckFacts and ToddRodge. Just ignore him. I have him blocked so I don't even have to read his troll crap.

Yes. Yes he is.

It's sad how one losing moment can make someone so bitter they have to act like this.